Deeper Understanding of Atonement

[BobRyan]

The gentile that were in the promised land tied to the Jews were to keep the Sabbaths.

Gentiles could not break Sabbath for others but did not have to choose to worship God.

Notice in Isaiah 56 - they were choosing God.

Notice that in Is 56
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

House of prayer "for all nations" not "just Jews"

Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabsath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" -- the moral law of God - for all mankind. It defines what sin is - it defines what obedience is.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Do you feel God lacks the power or the Love to forgive sins without have Christ go to the cross?

God cannot forgive sin unless the sin dent owed Him is paid in full first!

 

[mark kennedy]

We can thank Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation to show us and them how lousy the Garden situation was for fulfilling our earthly objective. We are so much better off where we are today in this messed up world best designed to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

As far as I can tell the garden was perfect for fulfilling our earthly objective. They just picked the wrong tree. However, they were perfectly innocent, which is not the same as righteous. There was no long term security in the garden if Eden. After a thousand years the devil is releaaed from the abyss and immediately the nations are surrou n ding Jerusalem. The persuasive power of Satan is not to be taken litely.

 

[mark kennedy]

It remains a sin to take God's name in vain. The idea that 1 Cor 7:19 does not say to Keep God's Commandments is fiction.

Getting heaven "by law keeping" is not possible - the Gospel is needed. .But Romans 6 and Romans 3 argue that the Gospel solution "establishes the LAW of God" rather than "deleting it".

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.



God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. You argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You stopped quoting at the crucial 'but now', the righteousness that is by faith has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the prophets. Peter say "of him all the prophets speak that whosoever believes in him has eternal life (Acts 10:43). Immediately the Gentiles believed and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. At the Jerusalem Council Peter said, the Gentiles were purifying themselves by faith. Paul would use the term atonement only once, in verse 25 which marks the transition of the book from conviction for sin to faith and righteousness.

 

[BobRyan]

Either we keep all the law or none of it.

It remains a sin to take God's name in vain. The idea that 1 Cor 7:19 does not say to Keep God's Commandments is fiction.

Getting heaven "by law keeping" is not possible - the Gospel is needed. .But Romans 6 and Romans 3 argue that the Gospel solution "establishes the LAW of God" rather than "deleting it".

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.

If you need to be told not to cuss, you probably do not love God

God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. You argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You stopped quoting at the crucial 'but now', the righteousness that is by faith has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the prophets.

Notice how we see "Law and the prophets" -- still a valid source of scripture - in the NT

Rom 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For "all the world accountable to God" and for "every mouth closed" as Romans 3:19 says we need the LAW of God continued as it defines what sin is.

And so it is the lost state of man that is certain, that is defined by the moral law of God that defines what sin is - and declares that all mankind needs the Gospel. It is not "optional" rather it is a necessity.

And it is not as though the "LAW and the prophets" do not also speak about the Gospel and salvation

Peter say "of him all the prophets speak that whosoever believes in him has eternal life (Acts 10:43). Immediately the Gentiles believed and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. At the Jerusalem Council Peter said, the Gentiles were purifying themselves by faith.

 

[BobRyan]

God cannot forgive sin unless the sin dent owed Him is paid in full first!

God fully forgives Moses and Elijah - and they stand with Christ in Matthew 17 on the mount of transfiguration - before the cross. Because as Romans 4:17 says "17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were." Because God sees the past and future alike and is not bound by time.

 

[BobRyan]

You say: “God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time”

You have God seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent Christ, when it is never right to torture, humiliate and murder the innocent and/or allow the guilty to go free.

Is this a God you want to be like? .

I do not offer feelings - I offer the Word of God. In every case it is substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

1. God's Law requires payment of debt for sin. Rom 6:23
2. God's law is ESTABLISHED by the Gospel not deleted by it. Rom 3:31
3. God is BOTH just AND the justifier -- Romans 3.
4. God paid the debt owed.


Animal sacrifices had to be pure, unblemished. Christ was not a sinner nor made a sinner at the cross. But God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. He "paid the debt owed" -- Col 2 our "certificate of DEBT nailed to the cross" NASB.

Substitutionary atonement "Sin offering" is right there in the text you are not quoting.

==================================================


2 Cor 5 "he made him who knew no sin - to become sin for us - that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ".

Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".

He suffers the second death in our place.

The death of the child is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order.

Christ paid the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each sin, for each person, in all of time. You could never do that.

Christ was born with a sinless nature - you with a sinful nature. Only Christ as God could accommodate the full load of torment and suffering owed by all sinners for all their sins in the lake of fire. His capacity for suffering - much greater than yours. His sinless nature pure - your sinful nature a blemished sacrifice - impure.

On the cross - it is God paying the debt that His own Law says is owed for sin - the death sentence -- the suffering-and-death sentence. When the penalty of the law is upheld -- the law is in full force rather than abolished.

One sin problem - One Gospel solution:
people condemned to hell both before and after the cross. The Law of God condemns all mankind as sinners in need of salvation.

Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Before the cross - in Matthew 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand in glorified heavenly form - with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - fully forgiven.


BobRyan said: ↑
Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".

He suffers the second death in our place.


The first verse -
Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

Is 53:8 (NASB)
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

KJV
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

=====
Fine - Christ paid our debt of sin... what debt would that be?

The second verse

Rom 6:23 - 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Rev 14:10 "fire and brimstone.. torment and suffering" of that lake of fire - second death is what we owe.

Yet ALL (both saint and sinner) die the first death and Christ did not save us from dying the first death.
Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Do you feel the Jews offering a “Sin offering” that was a bag of flour though the bag of flour (Lev.5) replaced them?

It shows (as Hebrews 10:4 points out) that neither the "bag of flour" or the lamb slain - had any power at all to pay the debt owed or to forgive sins. They were merely visual aids - illustrations... teacher's aids.

Thus in Daniel 9 - we see a prayer of repentance, pleading forgiveness without either priest or sacrifice.

 

[mark kennedy]

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Notice how we see "Law and the prophets" -- still a valid source of scripture - in the NT

Rom 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For "all the world accountable to God" and for "every mouth closed" as Romans 3:19 says we need the LAW of God continued as it defines what sin is.

And so it is the lost state of man that is certain, that is defined by the moral law of God that defines what sin is - and declares that all mankind needs the Gospel. It is not "optional" rather it is a necessity.

And it is not as though the "LAW and the prophets" do not also speak about the Gospel and salvation

With the eighth century prophets the is a pattern. Israels\Judahs sin, idolatry and geed mostly. A co.ing invasion/exile. Restoration 70 years later. But in the closing chapters the coming of the king and his glorious kingdom, Isaiah goes on for like 30 chapters.

The Mosaic Law mostly outlines sacrifises, purification rites. What you should really take a look at id Deuteronomy and the blessings and curses prescribed. It was remarkable how many went astray in their hearts, innfact, in their hearts turned back to Eqypt.

 

[BobRyan]

The "actual Bible"

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You stopped quoting at the crucial 'but now', the righteousness that is by faith has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the prophets.

Notice how we see "Law and the prophets" -- still a valid source of scripture - in the NT

Rom 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For "all the world accountable to God" and for "every mouth closed" as Romans 3:19 says we need the LAW of God continued as it defines what sin is.

And so it is the lost state of man that is certain, that is defined by the moral law of God that defines what sin is - and declares that all mankind needs the Gospel. It is not "optional" rather it is a necessity.

And it is not as though the "LAW and the prophets" do not also speak about the Gospel and salvation

Peter say "of him all the prophets speak that whosoever believes in him has eternal life (Acts 10:43). Immediately the Gentiles believed and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. At the Jerusalem Council Peter said, the Gentiles were purifying themselves by faith.

The Mosaic Law mostly outlines sacrifises, purification rites. What you should really take a look at id Deuteronomy and the blessings and curses prescribed. It was remarkable how many went astray in their hearts, innfact, in their hearts turned back to Eqypt.

And yet all the saints in Heb 11 held up as models for NT saints -- all of them are from the OT.

And even the "two greatest commandments" in Matthew 22 are right out of the Law of Moses.

 

[Dave L]

It remains a sin to take God's name in vain. The idea that 1 Cor 7:19 does not say to Keep God's Commandments is fiction.

Getting heaven "by law keeping" is not possible - the Gospel is needed. .But Romans 6 and Romans 3 argue that the Gospel solution "establishes the LAW of God" rather than "deleting it".

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.



God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. You argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Notice how we see "Law and the prophets" -- still a valid source of scripture - in the NT

Rom 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

For "all the world accountable to God" and for "every mouth closed" as Romans 3:19 says we need the LAW of God continued as it defines what sin is.

And so it is the lost state of man that is certain, that is defined by the moral law of God that defines what sin is - and declares that all mankind needs the Gospel. It is not "optional" rather it is a necessity.

And it is not as though the "LAW and the prophets" do not also speak about the Gospel and salvation

“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:10)

 

[BobRyan]

“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:10)

Very different from "Love is the abolishing of the LAW" and "Law does not exist".
Very different from "do not fulfill the law - ignore it... it is abolished"

Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this,
“You shall not commit adultery, Ex 20
You shall not murder, Ex 20
You shall not steal, Ex 20
You shall not covet,” Ex 20
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

It complies with it - rather than "deletes it".

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

"What matters is KEEPING the commandments OF GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

===========

Christianity agrees --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[Dave L]

Very different from "Love is the abolishing of the LAW" and "Law does not exist".
Very different from "do not fulfill the law - ignore it... it is abolished"

Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this,
“You shall not commit adultery, Ex 20
You shall not murder, Ex 20
You shall not steal, Ex 20
You shall not covet,” Ex 20
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying,
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

It complies with it - rather than "deletes it".

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

"What matters is KEEPING the commandments OF GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

===========

Christianity agrees --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

 

[Hawkins]

Paul uses examples of prior OT Jews not only in Ro. 3 but also in Ro. 9.

In nutshell, Romans is for Jews in Paul's time. You don't have to assume otherwise or else you can't make the whole book of Romans logical. You need to admit that Romans remains one of the most difficult books in the history of Christianity. In my opinion, it's due to people with your point of view, and without the courage to accept an alternative, such as mine.

That said, I don't see anything in Romans 9 are about ancient Jews. What you said here is rather an assertion.

Let me show you more about what is said in Romans 3.

Romans 3:20 (NIV2011)
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

The problem here is that, in Paul's days all mankind (literally the Jews) have only one concept of Law, especially to the Jews. Law means Mosaic Law and no more. However this concept is not precise (or rather wrong). Paul on the other hand, has to extend the same 'wrong' concept in addressing his audience. He can't introduce another concept of Law to offend the Jews under the circumstance.

In essence however, in front of God's absolute law no one can declare righteous. However along the history of ancient Israel, there are always righteous persons in God eyes. "In God's eyes" means when judged by the covenant in place, instead of God's absolute Law.

No one is righteous in front of God's Law (humans will take the term Law as Mosaic Law, this however is not necessary). But there are always righteous people in God's eyes along the history of Israel. They are righteous when measured by the covenant (including how well they abide by the Mosaic Law).

The whole purpose of a covenant is to tell apart the righteous from the wicked, the saved from the unsaved. It thus needs to be renewed in the case that this very purpose is defeated.

That's why;

Hebrews 8:8-9 (NIV2011)
But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

 

[bling]

Gentiles could not break Sabbath for others but did not have to choose to worship God.

Notice in Isaiah 56 - they were choosing God.

Notice that in Is 56
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

House of prayer "for all nations" not "just Jews"

Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabsath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" -- the moral law of God - for all mankind. It defines what sin is - it defines what obedience is.

This is way off topic:
Are there other Sabbath days besides Saturday?
Where all the days of the Jubilee Year Sabbath days?
Did the priest keep the Sabbath rest on Saturday?

 

[bling]

God cannot forgive sin unless the sin dent owed Him is paid in full first!

That does not answer the question:
Does God lack the Love to forgive or the Power to forgive without first being paid off?
Is that the example we need to use with people who owe us?
If it is paid in full what is being forgiven?

 

[bling]

As far as I can tell the garden was perfect for fulfilling our earthly objective. They just picked the wrong tree. However, they were perfectly innocent, which is not the same as righteous. There was no long term security in the garden if Eden. After a thousand years the devil is releaaed from the abyss and immediately the nations are surrou n ding Jerusalem. The persuasive power of Satan is not to be taken litely.

If the situation was "perfect" how could they have sinned?
Adam was made "very good", so is that the same as being a clone of Christ who is perfect and if not why not and what is lacking?

 

[bling]

Substitutionary atonement "Sin offering" is right there in the text you are not quoting.

==================================================

Christ did physically go through this cruelty which we fully deserved to go through (so in that way there is “substitution”, but it is not penal substitution. We can experience crucifixion like God experienced it in heaven, while we are on earth and live (being crucified with Christ).

Christ being our sin offering does not mean it is substitution any more than the bag of flour sin offering was substation for the sinner.

What I have shown in the OP is Christ as the sin offering is the ransom payment offered to the unbeliever to get the unbeliever to release the child to the kingdom.

The death of the child is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order.

I have previously addressed the scriptures you listed and your understanding, but I will ask further about this statement:

You said: “The death of the child is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order”.

This is shows how we, like David, can receive just/fair Loving “punishment” (disciplining) by God allowing the one person we Love the most to be torture, humiliated and murdered because of our sins.

It is not penal substitution, but being tortured with Christ.

It shows (as Hebrews 10:4 points out) that neither the "bag of flour" or the lamb slain - had any power at all to pay the debt owed or to forgive sins. They were merely visual aids - illustrations... teacher's aids.

Thus in Daniel 9 - we see a prayer of repentance, pleading forgiveness without either priest or sacrifice.

I fully agree no sacrifice could “pay” any part of the debt, but I would include Christ being tortured humiliated and murdered as also not paying any part of the debt. God has both the power and Love to forgive the debt and scripture says God forgave us.

Actually in Lev. 5 God did forgive sins after the correct fulfilling of the atonement process, even with a bag of flour, but this was only for minor sins (unintentional sins).

 

[bling]

In nutshell, Romans is for Jews in Paul's time. You don't have to assume otherwise or else you can't make the whole book of Romans logical. You need to admit that Romans remains one of the most difficult books in the history of Christianity. In my opinion, it's due to people with your point of view, and without the courage to accept an alternative, such as mine.

That said, I don't see anything in Romans 9 are about ancient Jews. What you said here is rather an assertion.

I did not say: “Romans is for Jews in Paul's time”. The huge issue Paul is addressing, and is the best person to address it, is the division in the Roman Church between the Jewish and Gentile Christians. Paul would not even be read by non-Christian Jews. Some sections of Romans is directed mainly toward the Jewish Christians, but the Gentile Christian could use the information also and some is more directed toward the Gentile Christians.

No one is righteous in front of God's Law (humans will take the term Law as Mosaic Law, this however is not necessary). But there are always righteous people in God's eyes along the history of Israel. They are righteous when measured by the covenant (including how well they abide by the Mosaic Law).

The whole purpose of a covenant is to tell apart the righteous from the wicked, the saved from the unsaved. It thus needs to be renewed in the case that this very purpose is defeated.

They are righteous by faith.

Ro. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

David is listed among the “faithful” Heb. 11 so did he abide by the Law of Moses?

The Old Law was just a school master showing us how much we needed another way.

 

[Hawkins]

Ro. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Again and again, you have to assume that the above applies to all Jews in history, while it's not!

Why? Please answer this question sincerely.

The verse you quoted and the verse below are saying the same thing. That is, in Paul's days Jews no longer be faithful to God's old covenant. The word faith in Jewish dictionary is about "faithful to God".

Hebrews 8:8-9 (NIV2011)
But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.



My another question for you is, are there any persons in OT who are righteous?
Based on what they are deemed righteous if there are any?

Psalm 34:17 (NIV2011)
The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.

Humans can be deemed righteous by faith simply because faith is the Grace in a covenant God granted through the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[mark kennedy]

If the situation was "perfect" how could they have sinned?
Adam was made "very good", so is that the same as being a clone of Christ who is perfect and if not why not and what is lacking?

Your confusing their earthly estate with spiritual diminsions and Adam was communing with God in the early evening.