Deeper Understanding of Atonement

[YeshuaFan]

God fully forgives Moses and Elijah - and they stand with Christ in Matthew 17 on the mount of transfiguration - before the cross. Because as Romans 4:17 says "17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were." Because God sees the past and future alike and is not bound by time.

God is not bound in linear time, as He already saw that Jesus would come and die for their sin debt to be paid in full, so he saved them on "credit"

 

[bling]

Again and again, you have to assume that the above applies to all Jews in history, while it's not!

Why? Please answer this question sincerely.

The verse you quoted and the verse below are saying the same thing. That is, in Paul's days Jews no longer be faithful to God's old covenant. The word faith in Jewish dictionary is about "faithful to God".

Hebrews 8:8-9 (NIV2011)
But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.



My another question for you is, are there any persons in OT who are righteous?
Based on what they are deemed righteous if there are any?

Psalm 34:17 (NIV2011)
The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.

Humans can be deemed righteous by faith simply because faith is the Grace in a covenant God granted through the blood of Jesus Christ.

"Faith" can equal "trust" and can mean faithful, but does not always mean faithful.
Yes! God has the right to be upset with anyone not following the covenant He has established with them, but trusting God's Love/mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness allows God to forgive you.

You define "faith" as being "the Grace in a covenant God granted through the blood of Jesus Christ", because that does not fit every time the would "faith" is used ibn scripture?

God has always been extremely charitable

 

[bling]

Your confusing their earthly estate with spiritual diminsions and Adam was communing with God in the early evening.

God was certainly doing His part and communing with Adam, but was Adam lacking something.

 

[YeshuaFan]

That does not answer the question:
Does God lack the Love to forgive or the Power to forgive without first being paid off?
Is that the example we need to use with people who owe us?
If it is paid in full what is being forgiven?

Not even God is able to just forgive a sinner without threr

That does not answer the question:
Does God lack the Love to forgive or the Power to forgive without first being paid off?
Is that the example we need to use with people who owe us?
If it is paid in full what is being forgiven?

God is Holy , and so he must have someone pay for the sin debt obligation before forgiveness can be given to a sinner, as not even God can freely forgive just because"He wanted to do that"

 

[Hawkins]

"Faith" can equal "trust" and can mean faithful, but does not always mean faithful.
Yes! God has the right to be upset with anyone not following the covenant He has established with them, but trusting God's Love/mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness allows God to forgive you.

You define "faith" as being "the Grace in a covenant God granted through the blood of Jesus Christ", because that does not fit every time the would "faith" is used ibn scripture?

God has always been extremely charitable

You are missing the whole point of Christianity. God doesn't grant Grace at will. His Grace to sinners are all through Jesus Christ, unless you are in the position of a Calvinist advocating that God randomly to select to forgive some but not others.

That goes back to my first post, if God forgives at will, why do you need Christ? He can forgive whoever without the crucifixion of Christ. It could only mean that Christ is not a necessity. That's your advocate here, which contradicts the whole Bible teaching.

To simplify the question for you. If God can forgive whoever at will, why Jesus Christ is needed for the salvation of humankind? Why can't God just forgive whoever He deems worthy, but without the crucifixion of Jesus Christ?

 

[YeshuaFan]

"Faith" can equal "trust" and can mean faithful, but does not always mean faithful.
Yes! God has the right to be upset with anyone not following the covenant He has established with them, but trusting God's Love/mercy/grace/charity/forgiveness allows God to forgive you.

You define "faith" as being "the Grace in a covenant God granted through the blood of Jesus Christ", because that does not fit every time the would "faith" is used ibn scripture?

God has always been extremely charitable

Indeed he has, but the salvation that God offers always comes thru His methods, and the ONLY one that God has to save any lost sinner would be the Cross of Christ!

 

[YeshuaFan]

You are missing the whole point of Christianity. God doesn't grant Grace at will. His Grace to sinners are all through Jesus Christ, unless you are in the position of a Calvinist advocating that God randomly to select to forgive some but not others.

That goes back to my first post, if God forgives at will, why do you need Christ? He can forgive whoever without the crucifixion of Christ. It could only mean that Christ is not a necessity. That's your advocate here, which contradicts the whole Bible teaching.

To simplify the question for you. If God can forgive whoever at will, why Jesus Christ is needed for the salvation of humankind? Why can't God just forgive whoever He deems worthy, but without the crucifixion of Jesus Christ?

God cannot forgive anyone not covered and atoned for by the Cross of Christ, so God cannot accept any way other than thru the Cross to heaven!

 

[Hawkins]

God cannot forgive anyone not covered and atoned for by the Cross of Christ, so God cannot accept any way other than thru the Cross to heaven!

Exactly, no one can come to the Father without Jesus Christ.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Exactly, no one can come to the Father without Jesus Christ.

True, as jesus is the very door to access God the Father, and he is the only mediator between God and man, as he is the GodMan!

 

[bling]

Not even God is able to just forgive a sinner without threr

God is Holy , and so he must have someone pay for the sin debt obligation before forgiveness can be given to a sinner, as not even God can freely forgive just because"He wanted to do that"

God’s Holiness is seen in His infinite Love.

There is no lack of holiness seen in a God wanting to forgive everyone?

God “wants to forgive everyone” that is who He is, but He is not going to force His Love on you like some shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. We have to humbly accept God’s Love as pure charity since it is pure charity.

Do you see God lacking the power or the Love or both?

 

[bling]

You are missing the whole point of Christianity. God doesn't grant Grace at will. His Grace to sinners are all through Jesus Christ, unless you are in the position of a Calvinist advocating that God randomly to select to forgive some but not others.

That goes back to my first post, if God forgives at will, why do you need Christ? He can forgive whoever without the crucifixion of Christ. It could only mean that Christ is not a necessity. That's your advocate here, which contradicts the whole Bible teaching.

To simplify the question for you. If God can forgive whoever at will, why Jesus Christ is needed for the salvation of humankind? Why can't God just forgive whoever He deems worthy, but without the crucifixion of Jesus Christ?

God’s wanting and willingness to forgive everyone is limited only by man’s willingness to accept as pure charity God charitable gift of forgiveness as pure charity.

We can go into a long discussion of the psychology of man, but you have seen and heard stories about how people will do almost anything to avoid having to humbly accept pure charity especially from a sacrificial giver. Man has to have a huge need for charity to humbly correctly accept it, kind of like the prodigal son finally going back to father after reaching bottom.

If you have not talked directly with a nonbeliever you have certainly heard stories of trying to get them to accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified (the ransom payment). Look at Acts 2 Peter preaching to a large crowd with 3000 converts, if Christ had not gone to the cross, they could not believe they had tortured, humiliated and murdered the Messiah, so they would not be cut to the heart and cry out; “What can we do?” and if they do not reach that crying out, how many would have submitted to baptism that day?

You see Christ’s crucifixion was definitely needed on Pentecost for those 3000 and Peter and the others continued that message as we see in Steven’s sermon and the church grow rapidly.

These Christ crucified sermons were not “Christ died instead of you”, but for them to feel the pain of crucifying the Messiah and seeking relief.

Would it help the nonbeliever to feel the “pain” of his/her sins (hurting others in the past) to seek relief?

Christ’s crucifixion is “for” them and us, but it is not a pleasant remembrance, since it is our fault and helps us come around to an even closer relationship (we go through it together).

What good has come from your experiences of being crucified with Christ?

 

[bling]

Indeed he has, but the salvation that God offers always comes thru His methods, and the ONLY one that God has to save any lost sinner would be the Cross of Christ!

Again, God is the source of salvation, but you are putting limits on who God can save, similar to the way the Jews felt about gentiles, tax collectors and Samaritans. Can God save people you do not think should be saved?

 

[YeshuaFan]

God’s Holiness is seen in His infinite Love.

There is no lack of holiness seen in a God wanting to forgive everyone?

God “wants to forgive everyone” that is who He is, but He is not going to force His Love on you like some shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. We have to humbly accept God’s Love as pure charity since it is pure charity.

Do you see God lacking the power or the Love or both?

I see a Holy God who cannot just overlook and casually brush off sins!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Again, God is the source of salvation, but you are putting limits on who God can save, similar to the way the Jews felt about gentiles, tax collectors and Samaritans. Can God save people you do not think should be saved?

No, rather its that God cannot save any lost sinner apart from the Cross of Christ, so reject Jesus, you reject salvation and have the wrath of God still on you!

 

[YeshuaFan]

God’s wanting and willingness to forgive everyone is limited only by man’s willingness to accept as pure charity God charitable gift of forgiveness as pure charity.

We can go into a long discussion of the psychology of man, but you have seen and heard stories about how people will do almost anything to avoid having to humbly accept pure charity especially from a sacrificial giver. Man has to have a huge need for charity to humbly correctly accept it, kind of like the prodigal son finally going back to father after reaching bottom.

If you have not talked directly with a nonbeliever you have certainly heard stories of trying to get them to accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified (the ransom payment). Look at Acts 2 Peter preaching to a large crowd with 3000 converts, if Christ had not gone to the cross, they could not believe they had tortured, humiliated and murdered the Messiah, so they would not be cut to the heart and cry out; “What can we do?” and if they do not reach that crying out, how many would have submitted to baptism that day?

You see Christ’s crucifixion was definitely needed on Pentecost for those 3000 and Peter and the others continued that message as we see in Steven’s sermon and the church grow rapidly.

These Christ crucified sermons were not “Christ died instead of you”, but for them to feel the pain of crucifying the Messiah and seeking relief.

Would it help the nonbeliever to feel the “pain” of his/her sins (hurting others in the past) to seek relief?

Christ’s crucifixion is “for” them and us, but it is not a pleasant remembrance, since it is our fault and helps us come around to an even closer relationship (we go through it together).

What good has come from your experiences of being crucified with Christ?

Until the Holy Spirit enables a sinner to see His need for Jesus, and that Jesus is the Lord, they will see the Cross as foolish, how can what a man did mean anything to me now?

 

[BobRyan]

God cannot forgive anyone not covered and atoned for by the Cross of Christ, so God cannot accept any way other than thru the Cross to heaven!

Indeed the same Gospel in OT and NT - there is only one solution to the sin problem. Not two.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, God is the source of salvation, but you are putting limits on who God can save, similar to the way the Jews felt about gentiles, tax collectors and Samaritans. Can God save people you do not think should be saved?

The question is not "can you be God" -- rather the question is whether God has one Gospel or two or a zillion-and-two.

 

[bling]

I see a Holy God who cannot just overlook and casually brush off sins!

I see such a Loving and Holy God because He is willing to do almost anything to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, with that "everything" includes: satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, death, hell and even allowing man to sin.
God makes sin hugely significant shown in the suffering of Christ which creates an unbelievable huge debt so that his forgiveness of that debt will automatically produce an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) Luke 7 (...he that is forgiven much will love much...).

 

[bling]

No, rather its that God cannot save any lost sinner apart from the Cross of Christ, so reject Jesus, you reject salvation and have the wrath of God still on you!

What or who has the authority to say: “God cannot save…”?

When scripture talks about salvation in the New Testament it tells those being addressed at that time and place what they need for salvation which is Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, but it is not addressing God, telling Him what He needs to save?

Yes, if one rejects Jesus or rejects salvation they are “lost”, but where does it say: “All those including babies and mentally challenged, who never heard about Christ are automatically hell bound”.

 

[bling]

Until the Holy Spirit enables a sinner to see His need for Jesus, and that Jesus is the Lord, they will see the Cross as foolish, how can what a man did mean anything to me now?

The scripture says "whosoever" and talks about "hearing" and not first being enabled by the Spirit. So everyone lost is due to the fact God did not enable them?