Deeper Understanding of Atonement

[Dave L]

The 2 Commandmnets summarize all 10 to us, so we are still under obligation to keep the moral aspect of the Law...

No, you have it exactly backwards. The Ten hung from the Two at a level the most wicked could understand. “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)
You automatically keep the Ten by keeping the Two in love for God and people. But you cannot keep the Two by keeping the Ten. The ten made the wicked act as though they loved people under threat of death.

 

[mark kennedy]

The sin of our first parents is a poison, we are cursed with the knowledge of good and evil. It hunts us from within, it clings to our heart and soul till it drains the last drop of blood. There is no escaping death, it has us where it wants us and it's going to draw us into the grave no matter how hard we fight it. God has the only cure, in God's very nature the righteousness we desperately need is found only in Christ. Jesus took on death, to wrestle us away from death. It was impossible for death to hold him and that is what atonement was inteded for, to release us from the power of death by the power of an indestructable life. Atonement literally means, 'at one moment', that moment was when the high priest entered the holy of holies. He had incence in one hand and the blood of the lamb in the other. One mistake and he would be dragged out by a rope tied to his ankle.

The Jews, converted at Pentecost would have known the gravity of Paul describing to atonement of Christ. Everything hinged on this sacrifice, it covered the sins of an entire nation. It's no coincidence Jesus is called the Lamb in Revelations, it communicates the sacrifice that broke sins hold on the world.

Death could not hold him and sin could not entice him. God could forgive because righteousness can no be provided, by grace through faith, death must yeild. In Christ we enter the holy of holies, where our fath holds like an anchor. Our lives are vain, faulty and fragile. But now the righteousness uthat is by faith has been revealed. Bear in mind the discussion of atement in Romas 3:25 starts in the 21st verse with ''but now'. The context of the verse is informative

 

[YeshuaFan]

No, you have it exactly backwards. The Ten hung from the Two at a level the most wicked could understand. “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)
You automatically keep the Ten by keeping the Two in love for God and people. But you cannot keep the Two by keeping the Ten. The ten made the wicked act as though they loved people under threat of death.

The main point is that even under the New Covenant relationship with God, we are not lawless, as the Moral aspect of the law is still our standard on conduct now...

 

[Dave L]

The main point is that even under the New Covenant relationship with God, we are not lawless, as the Moral aspect of the law is still our standard on conduct now...

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant, replaced by the New. We use them for instruction and commentary. But they no longer serve their original purpose.

 

[BobRyan]

The Law was purely civil for the wicked.

1. The Heb 11 saints of the OT were not "the wicked".
2. Saints in NT and OT were never supposed to "take God's name in vain".
3. The Moral law of God defines "what sin is" - and there is no "civil penalty" for coveting -- never was.
4. The major doctrinal statements of all Christian groups freely admit that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart in both OT and NT - as contrasted to civil and ceremonial law.

Paul said:
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,

Yes the Law condemns all mankind as sinners - for the law defines what sin is 1 John 3:4

Paul said "this IS the New Covenant.. I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Hebrews 8:6-11
Paul said "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
Paul said "do we then make void the law of God by our faith? God forbid! Rather we ESTABLISH the LAW"
Paul said the wicked "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-12 and this is contrasted to the saints who walk in obedience to the LAW in those same verses.
Paul said in Romans 6 "what then? Shall we sin because we are not under the Law? God forbid! ... you are slaves of of the one you OBEY - either sin resulting in death... or righteousness"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dave L]

1. The Heb 11 saints of the OT were not "the wicked".
2. Saints in NT and OT were never supposed to "take God's name in vain".
3. The Moral law of God defines "what sin is" - and there is no "civil penalty" for coveting -- never was.
4. The major doctrinal statements of all Christian groups freely admit that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart in both OT and NT - as contrasted to civil and ceremonial law.



Yes the Law condemns all mankind as sinners - for the law defines what sin is 1 John 3:4

Paul said "this IS the New Covenant.. I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Hebrews 8:6-11
Paul said "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
Paul said "do we then make void the law of God by our faith? God forbid! Rather we ESTABLISH the LAW"
Paul said the wicked "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:4-12 and this is contrasted to the saints who walk in obedience to the LAW in those same verses.
Paul said in Romans 6 "what then? Shall we sin because we are not under the Law? God forbid! ... you are slaves of of the one you OBEY - either sin resulting in death... or righteousness"

in Christ,

Bob

Israel had a majority of wicked unbelievers. But all listed in Hebrews 11 were born again and faithful.

 

[BobRyan]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant

And also new Covenant - Jeremiah says it is God's LAW that is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant and all scholars know that Jeremiah and his readers accepted the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God.

1 John 3:4 - they continue to define what sin is -- just as Romans 3:19-20 points out.

Thus it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - even in the NT.

Thus in the NT the still continuing TEN are being affirmed in Eph 6:2 where the 5th commandment is "the first commandment with a promise"

 

[BobRyan]

Israel had a majority of wicked unbelievers. But all listed in Hebrews 11 were born again and faithful.

And had the New Covenant promise of the LAW of God written on the heart -

 

[Dave L]

And also new Covenant - Jeremiah says it is God's LAW that is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant and all scholars know that Jeremiah and his readers accepted the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God.

1 John 3:4 - they continue to define what sin is -- just as Romans 3:19-20 points out.

You are confusing the Two Great Commandments written in the heart. With the Ten Commandments written in stone.

 

[Dave L]

And had the New Covenant promise of the LAW of God written on the heart -

The ten commandments were the Old Covenant abolished by the New.

 

[BobRyan]

Repeatedly we read that no one was justified under the Old Law,

No sinner is justified by "not taking God's name in vain" because obedience to a commandment is not "forgiveness of sin" and "all have sinned" -- this is true in OT and NT. No change.

The Gentiles were never under the Old Law so whatever the Old Law did not provide would not be significant to them.

It was always a sin to take God's name in vain and murder - even for Gentiles.
Gentiles are specifically targeted in Isaiah 56:6-9 for Sabbath keeping even in the OT

 

[BobRyan]

You are confusing the Two Great Commandments written in the heart. With the Ten Commandments written in stone.

Jesus said "ALL the LAW and the prophets" (i.e. "scripture) are firmly established on TWO commands of Moses.
1. "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
2. "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Jeremiah had no context for "deleting the command to not take God's name in vain" and all Bible scholars know it.

Thus the 5th Commandment is QUOTED as "the first commandment with a promise" in Eph 6:2 showing that instead of being "deleted" -- it remains.

What is more Paul LISTS even more of the TEN in Rom 13 stating that we remain under obligation to fulfill them. Not to "delete them" -- so also does James make that case in James 2.

The term "LAW" used in Jeremiah 31 must include the TEN as all major Christian groups freely admit in their confessions of faith. When it comes to Bible doctrine "exegesis matters".

 

[BobRyan]

The ten commandments were the Old Covenant abolished by the New.

The 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" still true in the NT showing that the unit of TEN still binding even on saints - Eph 6:2.

Paul quotes from the TEN in Romans 13 just as Jesus does in Matthew 19 when upholding "which commandments" still apply.

So also does James quote from them in James 2.

Nobody ever says "it is ok to take God's name in vain" or that it was "deleted" rather Jesus says it is "established" firmly by the Levitical Mosaic Law found in Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18

 

[Dave L]

Jesus said "ALL the LAW and the prophets" (i.e. "scripture) are firmly established on TWO commands of Moses.
1. "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
2. "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Jeremiah had no context for "deleting the command to not take God's name in vain" and all Bible scholars know it.

The term "LAW" used in Jeremiah 31 must include the TEN as all major Christian groups freely admit in their confessions of faith.

All the law and the prophets HUNG from the Two Great Commandments. They are forever gone, the Two Great Commandments remain.

 

[Dave L]

The 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" still true in the NT showing that the unit of TEN still binding even on saints - Eph 6:2.

Paul quotes from the TEN in Romans 13 just as Jesus does in Matthew 19 when upholding "which commandments" still apply.

So also does James quote from them in James 2.

Nobody ever says "it is ok to take God's name in vain" or that it was "deleted" rather Jesus says it is "established" firmly by the Levitical Mosaic Law found in Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18

But, we heat our homes in sub zero temps. If the law is still active, you are willfully sinning to run your heat on Saturdays in the winter.

 

[BobRyan]

All the law and the prophets HUNG from the Two Great Commandments.

Firmly supported by them as Jesus said in Matthew 22

Thus it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - as all Christian groups freely admit.

The speculation that "do not take God's name in vain" is "forever gone" fails the test of scripture. And we all know it.

"What? do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

 

[BobRyan]

But, we heat our homes in sub zero temps. If the law is still active, you are willfully sinning to run your heat on Saturdays in the winter.

1. That is not exegesis or Bible proof of anything.
2. No Bible text says "do not turn on the lights" or "do not heat your home" and we all know it.

More Bible - less creative writing as "proof" for doctrine please.

 

[Dave L]

1. That is not exegesis or Bible proof of anything.
2. No Bible text says "do not turn on the lights" or "do not heat your home" and we all know it.

More Bible - less creative writing as "proof" for doctrine please.

Either we keep all the law or none of it.

 

[BobRyan]

You are confusing the Two Great Commandments written in the heart. With the Ten Commandments written in stone.

Jesus said "ALL the LAW and the prophets" (i.e. "scripture) are firmly established on TWO commands of Moses.
1. "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
2. "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Jeremiah had no context for "deleting the command to not take God's name in vain" and all Bible scholars know it.

Thus the 5th Commandment is QUOTED as "the first commandment with a promise" in Eph 6:2 showing that instead of being "deleted" -- it remains.

What is more Paul LISTS even more of the TEN in Rom 13 stating that we remain under obligation to fulfill them. Not to "delete them" -- so also does James make that case in James 2.

The term "LAW" used in Jeremiah 31 must include the TEN as all major Christian groups freely admit in their confessions of faith. When it comes to Bible doctrine "exegesis matters".

They are forever gone, the Two Great Commandments remain.

Thus the 5th Commandment is QUOTED as "the first commandment with a promise" in Eph 6:2 showing that instead of being "deleted" -- it remains.

What is more Paul LISTS even more of the TEN in Rom 13 stating that we remain under obligation to fulfill them. Not to "delete them" -- so also does James make that case in James 2.

 

[BobRyan]

Either we keep all the law or none of it.

It remains a sin to take God's name in vain. The idea that 1 Cor 7:19 does not say to Keep God's Commandments is fiction.

Getting heaven "by law keeping" is not possible - the Gospel is needed. .But Romans 6 and Romans 3 argue that the Gospel solution "establishes the LAW of God" rather than "deleting it".

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.