2 Cor 5 "he made him who knew no sin - to become sin for us - that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ".
Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".
He suffers the second death in our place.
The death of the child is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order.
Christ paid the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each sin, for each person, in all of time. You could never do that.
Christ was born with a sinless nature - you with a sinful nature. Only Christ as God could accommodate the full load of torment and suffering owed by all sinners for all their sins in the lake of fire. His capacity for suffering - much greater than yours. His sinless nature pure - your sinful nature a blemished sacrifice - impure.
Gal 2:20 - crucified with Christ
Romans 6:1-5 buried with him in baptism - death to sin, death to self.
On the cross - it is God paying the debt that His own Law says is owed for sin - the death sentence -- the suffering-and-death sentence. When the penalty of the law is upheld -- the law is in full force rather than abolished.
One sin problem - One Gospel solution:
people condemned to hell both before and after the cross. The Law of God condemns all mankind as sinners in need of salvation.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Instead of zapping each sinner the moment they commit their first sin - He draws them in grace to Himself... both OT and NT.
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Before the cross - in Matthew 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand in glorified heavenly form - with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - fully forgiven.
What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?
Animal sacrifices had to be pure, unblemished. Christ was not a sinner nor made a sinner at the cross. But God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. He "paid the debt owed" -- Col 2 our "
certificate of DEBT nailed to the cross" NASB.
If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?
I am fine with that - made a sin offering, that which takes on the full payment of debt owed for my sin.
Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21
As I said I am ok with the NIV version in that one case over the KJV/NASB etc.
BobRyan said:
↑
Isaiah 53 "
He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".
He suffers the second death in our place.[/quote]
I cannot find these two verses you are referring to so could you help me?
The first verse -
Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has
caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Is 53:8 (NASB)
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
10 But
the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting
Him to grief;
If He would
render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see
His offspring,
He will prolong
His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see
it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
KJV
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt
make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for
he shall bear their iniquities.
=====
Fine - Christ paid our debt of sin... what debt would that be?
The second verse
Rom 6:23 - 23 For
the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rev 20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire.
The Rev 14:10 "fire and brimstone.. torment and suffering" of that lake of fire - second death is what we owe.
Yet ALL (both saint and sinner) die the first death and Christ did not save us from dying the first death.
Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man
sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and
so death passed upon all men, for that
all have sinned:
So, if I am sinless and fulfill my earthly objective Christ would not have to die for me, but Christ would die for everyone else?
True but you are born in need of a savior - you are not "born a saint". Your sinful nature is from birth - and by definition it is a "bent" toward rebellion. You needed Christ from the start.
If Christ paid it all 100% what debt is there for God to forgive?
Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" requires TWO components. Atonement is a "binary weapon" against sin. It takes BOTH the work of Christ as "Atoning Sacrifice" and the work of Christ "as High Priest" Heb 8:1-6 which He is doing now in heaven for us.
When you buy a house these days - fir you wire the money - then the closing attorney takes the funds and distributes them at closing. No closing... no distribution. No funds... no closing. You must have both.
The payment is full and complete but only Christ can apply those benefits and He does so based on interaction with man. "
I STAND at the door and knock, IF anyone hears My voice AND opens the door - I will come in". Rev 3.
"
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins" 1 John 1:9.
He provides the payment... He sets the conditions. God cannot be "gamed".
God does not need to drink and eat Christ’s flesh and blood but Loves me enough to make it available to me, so what personal “good” would God get from seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ?
God was "in Christ reconciling the World to Himself" -- God is suffering on the cross - He is not getting "personal good" -- rather He is making "personal sacrifice" to rescue us.
Is what I am saying this is not “Christ taking our place”, but “my suffering with Him, especially since I put Him there”.
Which is a mistake.
Romans 5 "
while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" there is nothing in it about us suffering with him to get our redemption - He does it alone.
But then the "saved" person fully benefited by the first work of Christ - is "buried with Christ in baptism" Romans 6 - and "chooses" to crucify the sinful nature of self "daily" in the war against sin and rebellion that we face every day.
Are you saying: “God created a Law”, that would cause the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent? Did God not think this “Law” out before creating it?
God's Law requires the torture and torment of the Rev 20 lake of fire for the sinner. All sinners "owe it". In John 11 Lazarus the friend of Christ suffers a horrible death-by-slow-sickness and when Lazarus' sisters confront Christ about it - He says that "he who believes on Me shall never die". Christ totally discounts the suffering and death of the first death - no matter how horrific that suffering is -- as compared to the second death.
For God's Law to be "established" (Rom 3:31) rather than "abolished" that payment owed - must be met. And Christ fully meets the debt "owed" Col 2:14-15 "our certificate of debt" NASB nailed to the cross.
