Deconversion?

[Gwenyfur]

I know that must seem like a shocking revelation, but it is true nonetheless, Jesus came to make our life harder. He came to correct our spiritual flaws, and make sure we are perfected for the Father.

Jesus even fully acknowledges that you will have it hard when you follow him, throughout the New Testament he clearly says multiple times, “You will be hated by men for my name’s sake,” and “You will be persecuted…” As we can see from history, Jesus wasn’t exaggerating one bit. The early apostles suffered terrible deaths (some were killed by stoning, some were reportedly crucified, some beheaded, and worse). So Jesus certainly didn’t come to ensure his followers were pampered.

I say this because God allows us to go through trials and tribulations to actually strengthen our faith. We must rely on what He's already done in our lives to see this is true. I think back to horrible sorrow-filled situations I've been in and now see how that time changed me for the better, strengthened my faith and dependence on Him. Sometimes he allows us to be emptied (of our will) so that he can fill us up again with his will for our lives.

An unknown author wrote the following:

One by one God took them from me
All the things I valued most;
Until I was empty-handed,
Every glittering toy was lost.
And I walked earth's highways,
Grieving, in my rags and poverty.
Until I heard His voice inviting,
"Lift those empty hands to Me!"

Then I turned my hands to heaven,
And He filled them with His riches,
Until they could contain no more. And at last I comprehended
With my stupid mind, and dull,
That God cannot pour His riches
Into hands already full.



Still very much praying for you Criada, grab me on IM any time you wanna talk.

The difference between the purified silver and flesh is this:
one isn't alive and is soul-less...
the other isn't.

 

[Thekla]

The suffering is the shedding towards freedom ... it is not permanent.

 

[Criada]

I've always accepted that some degree of suffering is necessary... and yet, I don't know how that fits with the 'abundant life' that is promised.
But I suspect we aren't allowed to discuss that here.
I was willing to suffer... in fact, I went through several stages of self-inflicted suffering to try to make myself 'good enough'. And yes, I know, that is totally screwy theology, and Jesus has already done in all.

Theologically, scripturally, I know the right answers.. I just don't believe them, I'm afraid.

 

[Sojourner1]

No one is perfect and we aren't expected to be perfect by our own merit. I think that is the point that Scripture tries to make over and over again. What God really wants from us is our love and we wants us to love others. It's not about following rules or trying to live sin-free lives. I mess up every day, but I don't beat myself up about it. If I realize I have done something that God wouldn't be pleased with I tell Him I'm sorry and I ask that He help me not do it again. Then I forget about it.

God never promised anyone that they would have continual happiness in this life. He did promise that we would have joy, and there is a difference. Happiness is fleeting and only for the moment, but joy is deep and only comes when you find peace with God. In general most people think it's all about us, everything in life revolves around us and what we want. This pretty much sums up a lot of society right now. Me, me, me. People blame others for what they do wrong. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. But the fact is is that it's not about us and what we can get out of this life. The purpose of our life is to bring God glory (which is why we were created) and about how we can help and serve others. True joy comes from being a servant. Everyone knows you get a lot more happiness from giving rather than getting.

Everyone suffers in this life, whether your a Christian or not a Christian. For the Christian those times of trial and suffering enable God to change us into the image of His Son. God can use those times to make us more like Him. When we are like Christ we can then be used God as a witness to Christ and others will see the reality of God through us. For the unbeliever those times of suffering and trials tend to just make them more bitter and angry, and they either harden their heart more toward God, or their circumstances cause them to turn to God. I'm sure everyone would love to have no trials or suffering in their lives, but can you imagine what that would make everyone really like? If you didn't suffer you wouldn't be able to help others who are suffering. We by nature are so self-centered that a life without trials and suffering would only make us totally consumed by self and what we want and what we desire.

 

[gratefulgrace]

eternal significance to misery, doing without, deprivation, guilt, etc...

yeah...

so much for god wanting you to be "happy" and "enjoy his creation" eh...

You are putting words in my post that were never intended. I am so sorry that this is your experience of the christian life but it is not mine and I would venture to say many other christians would agree. Even in trial I have an anchor and I stand strong. gg

 

[gratefulgrace]

Sometimes when I get too full of myself moaning my situation I am led to meditate on what Jesus endured in his soujourn here on earth for my benefit. I tend to quiet my heart pretty fast and say a heartfelt and sincere thankyou and ask for strength to endure with grace and peace in my heart. gg

 

[Sojourner1]

eternal significance to misery, doing without, deprivation, guilt, etc...

yeah...

so much for god wanting you to be "happy" and "enjoy his creation" eh...

Where in the Bible does it say that God wants us to be "happy" or "enjoy his creation". I've been searching through the Bible and I can't find those statements anywhere. In fact, do a search at biblegateway.com of the word "happy" and "creation" (create and created as well) and see what comes up. I think you will be surprised. Based on Scripture, for what purpose do you think God created us?

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[gratefulgrace]

((((criada))))

 

[Thekla]

eternal significance to misery, doing without, deprivation, guilt, etc...

yeah...

so much for god wanting you to be "happy" and "enjoy his creation" eh...

Sorry, but this sounds like the culture of the " commercial Corporation"
(can I go shopping now )

 

[Criada]

You know, this isn't about wanting to be happy, or avoid God's will, or any of the other things people seem to be debating. I was happier as a Christian than I am now... and I was, as far as I am capable of knowing, willing to submit to what I thought was God's will for my life.
I have spent 19 years in a marriage in which I feel violated every time my partner touches me, initially because it was, I thought, 'God's will' - now it is more for the sake of my children.
I'm not complaining... I would do the same again if I could return, because I did it, however misguidedly, for love of Jesus. That love has been the centre of my life, and losing it is devastating - I would give anything to return, whatever suffering and sacrifice that may involve. I still love him, I still read his words in the bible and dream of seeing his face.
And yet, I don't believe it is real. I don't know why, it is as though the part of me that believed has been taken away, replaced by cynicism.
I want it to be true. Even if that means I am condemned for my unbelief, I want God, in the end, to be there. But I just can't believe that it is any more than a very beautiful and moving story. My love for Jesus now is like the affection one feels for a character in a book... I know it isn't true, but for a little while, sometimes, I can suspend that disbelief and imagine that he is real. But then, the realisation is all the more painful when he isn't.

Sorry, that was longer and more emotional than intended.

 

[Philothei]

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05 Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light for my path. 106 I have taken an oath and confirmed it,
that I will follow your righteous laws.
107 I have suffered much;
preserve my life, O LORD, according to your word.
108 Accept, O LORD, the willing praise of my mouth,
and teach me your laws.
109 Though I constantly take my life in my hands,
I will not forget your law.
110 The wicked have set a snare for me,
but I have not strayed from your precepts.
111 Your statutes are my heritage forever;
they are the joy of my heart.
112 My heart is set on keeping your decrees
to the very end.
s Samekh

113 I hate double-minded men,
but I love your law. 114 You are my refuge and my shield;
I have put my hope in your word.
115 Away from me, you evildoers,
that I may keep the commands of my God!
116 Sustain me according to your promise, and I will live;
do not let my hopes be dashed.
117 Uphold me, and I will be delivered;
I will always have regard for your decrees.
118 You reject all who stray from your decrees,
for their deceitfulness is in vain.
119 All the wicked of the earth you discard like dross;
therefore I love your statutes.
120 My flesh trembles in fear of you;
I stand in awe of your laws.
v Ayin

121 I have done what is righteous and just;
do not leave me to my oppressors. 122 Ensure your servant's well-being;
let not the arrogant oppress me.
123 My eyes fail, looking for your salvation,
looking for your righteous promise.
124 Deal with your servant according to your love
and teach me your decrees.
125 I am your servant; give me discernment
that I may understand your statutes.
126 It is time for you to act, O LORD;
your law is being broken.
127 Because I love your commands
more than gold, more than pure gold,
128 and because I consider all your precepts right,
I hate every wrong path.
p Pe

129 Your statutes are wonderful;
therefore I obey them. 130 The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
131 I open my mouth and pant,
longing for your commands.
132 Turn to me and have mercy on me,
as you always do to those who love your name.
133 Direct my footsteps according to your word;
let no sin rule over me.
134 Redeem me from the oppression of men,
that I may obey your precepts.
135 Make your face shine upon your servant
and teach me your decrees.
136 Streams of tears flow from my eyes,
for your law is not obeyed.
c Tsadhe

137 Righteous are you, O LORD,
and your laws are right. 138 The statutes you have laid down are righteous;
they are fully trustworthy.
139 My zeal wears me out,
for my enemies ignore your words.
140 Your promises have been thoroughly tested,
and your servant loves them.
141 Though I am lowly and despised,
I do not forget your precepts.
142 Your righteousness is everlasting
and your law is true.
143 Trouble and distress have come upon me,
but your commands are my delight.
144 Your statutes are forever right;
give me understanding that I may live.
q Qoph

145 I call with all my heart; answer me, O LORD,
and I will obey your decrees. 146 I call out to you; save me
and I will keep your statutes.
147 I rise before dawn and cry for help;
I have put my hope in your word.
148 My eyes stay open through the watches of the night,
that I may meditate on your promises.
149 Hear my voice in accordance with your love;
preserve my life, O LORD, according to your laws.
150 Those who devise wicked schemes are near,
but they are far from your law.
151 Yet you are near, O LORD,
and all your commands are true.
152 Long ago I learned from your statutes
that you established them to last forever.
r Resh

153 Look upon my suffering and deliver me,
for I have not forgotten your law. 154 Defend my cause and redeem me;
preserve my life according to your promise.
155 Salvation is far from the wicked,
for they do not seek out your decrees.
156 Your compassion is great, O LORD;
preserve my life according to your laws.
157 Many are the foes who persecute me,
but I have not turned from your statutes.
158 I look on the faithless with loathing,
for they do not obey your word.
159 See how I love your precepts;
preserve my life, O LORD, according to your love.
160 All your words are true;
all your righteous laws are eternal.
S Sin and Shin

161 Rulers persecute me without cause,
but my heart trembles at your word. 162 I rejoice in your promise
like one who finds great spoil.
163 I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law.
164 Seven times a day I praise you
for your righteous laws.
165 Great peace have they who love your law,
and nothing can make them stumble.
166 I wait for your salvation, O LORD,
and I follow your commands.
167 I obey your statutes,
for I love them greatly.
168 I obey your precepts and your statutes,
for all my ways are known to you.
t Taw

169 May my cry come before you, O LORD;
give me understanding according to your word. 170 May my supplication come before you;
deliver me according to your promise.
171 May my lips overflow with praise,
for you teach me your decrees.
172 May my tongue sing of your word,
for all your commands are righteous.
173 May your hand be ready to help me,
for I have chosen your precepts.
174 I long for your salvation, O LORD,
and your law is my delight.
175 Let me live that I may praise you,
and may your laws sustain me.
176 I have strayed like a lost sheep.
Seek your servant,
for I have not forgotten your commands.




Pslam 119....






Please Criada read the whole psalm..... it does deal with struggle....Do not give up the fight no matter what ....


Phenomenologically it might seem that Chistian life is not "happy" but that is not true. Christians are happy spiritually healthy and rejoicing for they are "FREE" no slavery to any decepitonal and illussional form or "happiness" that comes to that of what the 'worldly" call happiness...



This kind of happiness is shallow and full of anguish and pain until the next 'time" will come to give you another "high" .... making one feeling empty and guilty ONLY living for that same earthly fleshly happiness..



Man is reduced thus to the level of his physical being and reality..incapable to experience the higher calling "happiness" we are called as human being that of being in unity with His creator....



True happiness involves all our human sphere our spiritual as well as our flesh. We are one entity and we fail to fulfill our unity with our creator when we let the evil one "talks to us" into living ONLY for the here and now...





Lord have mercy on all brothers and sisters who the evil one throws his horrific snares... at them.



Just know that the Lord is always there....

 

[Tishri1]

Hon you are NOT alone, look around the whole world is in crises and falling around us, many are losing hope and trust in God....but not all will, please go find the ones who havent lost their faith and hang out with them....Just let your self be there, no expectations placed on you and none placed on them, just hang out with them....I have a feeling we are all in for a soul shaking experience soon and your just in the front of the line sweety...I appreciate your honesty and I love the hope I can still read in your words, I believe God is going to use that once he gets you ready.....Im not kidding, go find those people who are stronger in their walk and hang out with them ok?

You know, this isn't about wanting to be happy, or avoid God's will, or any of the other things people seem to be debating. I was happier as a Christian than I am now... and I was, as far as I am capable of knowing, willing to submit to what I thought was God's will for my life.
I have spent 19 years in a marriage in which I feel violated every time my partner touches me, initially because it was, I thought, 'God's will' - now it is more for the sake of my children.
I'm not complaining... I would do the same again if I could return, because I did it, however misguidedly, for love of Jesus. That love has been the centre of my life, and losing it is devastating - I would give anything to return, whatever suffering and sacrifice that may involve. I still love him, I still read his words in the bible and dream of seeing his face.
And yet, I don't believe it is real. I don't know why, it is as though the part of me that believed has been taken away, replaced by cynicism.
I want it to be true. Even if that means I am condemned for my unbelief, I want God, in the end, to be there. But I just can't believe that it is any more than a very beautiful and moving story. My love for Jesus now is like the affection one feels for a character in a book... I know it isn't true, but for a little while, sometimes, I can suspend that disbelief and imagine that he is real. But then, the realisation is all the more painful when he isn't.

Sorry, that was longer and more emotional than intended.

 

[Chaplain David]

Where in the Bible does it say that God wants us to be "happy" or "enjoy his creation". I've been searching through the Bible and I can't find those statements anywhere. In fact, do a search at biblegateway.com of the word "happy" and "creation" (create and created as well) and see what comes up. I think you will be surprised. Based on Scripture, for what purpose do you think God created us?

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

One just came to mind and in the words of Jesus: "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10)

Peace and Love,

 

[Chaplain David]

if someone has to live with the constant "this is a sin and must be avoided" to the point they're denying their own self identity ... wouldn't you say that causes depression.

If someone has to live with the constant knowledge that they're "unworthy of salvation" ... that would lead to depression as well...

If someone has to live under the constant and onerous judgementalism of "holy rollers" ...yep...that too causes depression...

Gee...I wonder why so many christians seem to suffer from depression and other mental disorders?

All that negative energy and reinforcement has to be crippling!

Depression is no more a Christian disease than mumps or measles.

 

[gratefulgrace]

There is a core issue at stake Criada and if you do not know what it is I am sure that it will be revealed to you. (I am not presuming I know please feel free to pm me if you want to talk and share two way.) I support sacerdotes earlier suggestion to seek further help for you issues of deep struggle. I just do not see how you can have victory in the situation you are in now. Perhaps it is possible and I am not advocating divorce and never would but you cannot just ignore that that is a big elephant sitting in the room. Please know I pray for you daily do not lose heart dear one. gg

 

[pdudgeon]

Criada, I'm with tishri on this one. you need to hang out with the crowd that is still looking forward expectantly to seeing Jesus, because you need their encouragement and their reinforcement to help the part of you that is in doubt or unbelief.

in a sense your struggle is felt by a whole host of people. the values of society as a whole have changed and flipped upside down. Because those values were based upon belief in the Judeo-Christian laws, it's no surprize that belief and faith in God and Jesus, upon which the laws have their basis, will have been affected as well.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Criada

Sometimes the old axiom of "let go and let god" should really read more like "let god go and live your life"

Hun...it's not about life being a bed of roses...I still have trials, and I still have struggles, but by letting go of a belief in something that isn't real, I've found peace in knowing it really is up to me to solve my problems, to deal with my choices, and stand on my own 2 feet.

I don't need or want a crutch, nor do I need or want "sympathy" or writings that were created by updating older pagan religions and supposedly creating an entire new one...

and at the end of each day, I know I made the right choice to shed the shackles of burden, guilt, shame, and unworthiness...

I am as I was created...and *much* happier for having shed those shackles of needless guilt.

whatever you decide...however you choose to believe and live is up to you...and no matter what you choose...you know I love you

 

[Criada]

How do you let him go, though?
How do you get past the sense of failure and guilt at not believing.... I don't know how to 'be myself'... I think I killed myself of years ago and became some false construct.. and when the mask eventually drops, there's nothing behind it. I feel completely worthless, and all the biblical platitudes I've used to try to hold that off are gone.. I'm not a 'child of God', there is no divine plan for my life.. the mess I have made is all I am.. and to be honest, it doesn't seem worth carrying on with at times.
I don't know any more where my strength comes from.. and I think when it comes down to it, I don't have any.. I have nothing to offer, nowhere to go, and no purpose.

 

[A New Dawn]

if someone has to live with the constant "this is a sin and must be avoided" to the point they're denying their own self identity ... wouldn't you say that causes depression.

If someone has to live with the constant knowledge that they're "unworthy of salvation" ... that would lead to depression as well...

If someone has to live under the constant and onerous judgementalism of "holy rollers" ...yep...that too causes depression...

Gee...I wonder why so many christians seem to suffer from depression and other mental disorders?

All that negative energy and reinforcement has to be crippling!

Why would anyone live with all that stuff? That is not what being a Christian means! When one is a Christian, their service to the Father is done out of gratitude and love, not fear and oppression. If that is what some people feel, then maybe they need to re-evaluate their relationship with God.

Furthermore, Christians don't sit in judgement of, or under judgment from, any anyone else. If that is what people are basing their actions on, again, they need to re-evaluate their relationship with God.

I don't believe that, statistically speaking, Christians suffer with more depression and other emotional/mental disorders than any other segment of the population.

 

[Penumbra]

Anyone want to share why... or why not?
I'm at a crossroads right now, and feeling very confused.
If anyone has deconverted, or come close to doing so and come back to Christianity, can you give some reasons for your decision?

I deconverted for numerous reasons.

I didn't feel that the Bible represented the god I believed in at all.

I became more knowledgeable about various world religions and realized I was only the religion I was because I was raised that way, and upon further inspection of all extinct and present religions I determined that there was no way to conclude that any of them are true compared to the others, and that I might as well draw names of religions out of a hat.

Years of prayers and confusion went without response.

I no longer felt that the world was designed by anything intelligent and benevolent. The fact that suffering and death vastly predates human existence on this planet says to me that most explanations of why both God and suffering exist are empty. When I read and see pictures of the fact that 400 million people, many of which being children, died last century from small pox, I doubt that anything intelligent made this mess. When I read about the universe, and see swirling pictures of lifeless suns and meteors acting only accord to cold, hard mathematical laws destroying and creating barren landscapes, I view the universe like clockwork instead of with respect to a personal, benevolent being. In particular, when I view the food chain, and realize that all life is built around animals hunting and consuming other animals often through painful means, and that it's been a fight for survival since the very beginning of life on this planet, I just don't feel that anything with personal feelings towards all this created it.

-Lyn