Deconversion?

[Thekla]

Unfortunately, the only responses so many religious people can give is that the struggler is always at fault--you haven't persisted; you haven't prayed long enough, loud enough, or hard enough; your motives are wrong; wait longer; ask for a sign; don't ask for a sign; have faith (you haven't); grow up; become as a child; trust the bible; it isn't about feelings (unless it is some other thread where intellect is castigated); etc.

A person is in pain--and the response is to blame. Of course, what other response is there. If it isn't the struggler's fault, it would be God's. And, that can't be. Unfortunately, that is no help at all.

On behalf of strugglers everywhere, kudos to those Christians who limited their responses to "I'm so sorry; I've been there; I'm praying for you."

You do have children, per your posts.

I do as well. There have been times when a child has been in pain because of some difficulty. If, as parent, I act to solve the difficulty for them, I do them a disservice. And there have been times when to address the pain itself is either impossible, or will not be fruitful for them.

Sometimes, for a parent to actually love it is needful for the parent to "move back"; thus the child matures. At these times, it is deeply painful for me as well; if my children have children, they will likely come to know the same thing. In discussions with myparents, as an adult, they describe the same experience.

For many who have had the experience of apparent "silence" or the feeling that God is not there, one step is to explore the possible origin of this. Thus, via the sharing of experience, one can investigate oneself to see if the descriptions offered are accurate. In some cases, it is one's "own fault"; this is not always the case.

God, as Father, as "parent" becomes more understandable if considering the ultimate goal of a healthy person -- what parents want for their children.

I agree; sometimes just soothing is called for, sometimes other things are more helpful. It seems only time will tell in any case.

And you are more than welcome to scold me if you think its in order

 

[Zoness]

Unfortunately, the only responses so many religious people can give is that the struggler is always at fault--you haven't persisted; you haven't prayed long enough, loud enough, or hard enough; your motives are wrong; wait longer; ask for a sign; don't ask for a sign; have faith (you haven't); grow up; become as a child; trust the bible; it isn't about feelings (unless it is some other thread where intellect is castigated); etc.

This happens to me regularly on any occasion that I begin to doubt, I am sick of it and want nothing to do with those types.

 

[oneofchrists]

Perhaps all You need is a True friend that is willing to listen and not judge......Seek, and You will find that Friend......Allow God to Bless You.....Dave

 

[Quoth]

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[Sojourner1]

Unfortunately, the only responses so many religious people can give is that the struggler is always at fault--you haven't persisted; you haven't prayed long enough, loud enough, or hard enough; your motives are wrong; wait longer; ask for a sign; don't ask for a sign; have faith (you haven't); grow up; become as a child; trust the bible; it isn't about feelings (unless it is some other thread where intellect is castigated); etc.

I can understand that this would all seem a bit confusing. I think that God reaches people in the way that is best for that specific person. Everyone is different and has different needs. We aren't pressed out of the same cookie cutter. Some people might need a sign while others don't. Some people might be more feelings oriented while others are not. I don't think these things contradict each other, I just think they demonstrate that God is not confined to a formula and He is able to reach us exactly in the way that we need. Maybe this thread has become almost "advice overload", but I think everyone is just sharing how God reached them when they were struggling hoping that something will help Sarah in her search. There is one thing that I think we could all stand to do once in awhile, especially in this really busy season, and that is..."Be still and know I am God."

 

[Tinker Grey]

I can understand that this would all seem a bit confusing. I think that God reaches people in the way that is best for that specific person. Everyone is different and has different needs. We aren't pressed out of the same cookie cutter. Some people might need a sign while others don't. Some people might be more feelings oriented while others are not. I don't think these things contradict each other, I just think they demonstrate that God is not confined to a formula and He is able to reach us exactly in the way that we need. Maybe this thread has become almost "advice overload", but I think everyone is just sharing how God reached them when they were struggling hoping that something will help Sarah in her search. There is one thing that I think we could all stand to do once in awhile, especially in this really busy season, and that is..."Be still and know I am God."

I'm not confused at all. I think you're missing my point. While I concede that many of the posts were in the vain of how God reached them, a number of other certainly suggest that "you are not doing enough."

As noted earlier, this is like Job's friends. In the end it wasn't Job that had to repent, but his friends.

As to contradictory advise, I think this is a message that you should give to your Christian colleagues: All respondants are different; becareful to couch your advice in terms of "This worked for me, but ..."

I think this is good advice (though I wager you will not): After a certain point, you need to walk away. An omnipotent and omniscient God would know what it would take to reach you and have the power to do it. If he wants you, he knows where to find you.

I spent a couple decades laboring on making sense of it all and a couple years agonizing of the existence of God. I'm done.

Either God does not want me, or he doesn't exist. If he wants me, he knows where I am. But I'm done agonizing.

 

[Sojourner1]

As to contradictory advise, I think this is a message that you should give to your Christian colleagues: All respondants are different; becareful to couch your advice in terms of "This worked for me, but ..."

I agree.

I think this is good advice (though I wager you will not): After a certain point, you need to walk away. An omnipotent and omniscient God would know what it would take to reach you and have the power to do it. If he wants you, he knows where to find you.

Not sure about walking away, but I would say maybe relax and stop trying so hard to make yourself believe. Faith is a gift from God, so pray for God to give you that gift. Then main thing to remember is that when God does call to you you need to be open to that call. If you have walked away you are no longer open and listening for Him.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I agree.



Not sure about walking away, but I would say maybe relax and stop trying so hard to make yourself believe. Faith is a gift from God, so pray for God to give you that gift. Then main thing to remember is that when God does call to you you need to be open to that call. If you have walked away you are no longer open and listening for Him.

Basically agreed.

There is, nevertheless, a time comes to stop praying, pleading, crying and begging. (BTDT)

Most atheists I know are open to evidence. Again whether or not I could guess what kind of evidence it would take, an omniscient god would and an omnipotent god could.

 

[Chesterton]

I'm not confused at all. I think you're missing my point. While I concede that many of the posts were in the vain of how God reached them, a number of other certainly suggest that "you are not doing enough."

How can you say that "you're not doing enough" is not the right answer? That's a weak, emotional approach, in my view.

 

[Criada]

How can you say that "you're not doing enough" is not the right answer? That's a weak, emotional approach, in my view.

As a matter of interest, if I am not doing enough, what more should I be doing?

 

[Tinker Grey]

And how does one who knows you only over the internet know "you're not doing enough" is correct? The statement is presumptuous at best and is arrogant and insulting at worst -- though I try to give a person the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Chesterton]

As a matter of interest, if I am not doing enough, what more should I be doing?

It's not for me to say what more you should be doing, but it's also not for me or anyone else to say that you shouldn't be doing more.

 

[Criada]

You know, that really doesn't help.
And, given that salvation is by grace, not by works, surely there is nothing I can do anyway. It's up to God, and if he exists, he doesn't want to know me.
So... if you think I should do more, how about some ideas?

 

[Chesterton]

You know, that really doesn't help.
And, given that salvation is by grace, not by works, surely there is nothing I can do anyway. It's up to God, and if he exists, he doesn't want to know me.
So... if you think I should do more, how about some ideas?

I wasn't offering that to be helpful. Just offering it because it might be true.

 

[Criada]

Maybe it is.
But I can't do anything about it

 

[Philothei]

Who is doing "more" or not.. It is not even up to us to judge... in the first place. So i would say that it is ultimately a spiritually issue...that maybe another spirtual guide could help?? Have you thought of seeking spiritual counseling Criada by another of your husband's collegue ? Sometimes we do need direction not from the internet not from friends but someone more 'seasoned" in spiritual matters such as an elder... It is in the Bible that we should seek out the wisdom of the "elders"

 

[Philothei]

And how does one who knows you only over the internet know "you're not doing enough" is correct? The statement is presumptuous at best and is arrogant and insulting at worst -- though I try to give a person the benefit of the doubt.

And at the same time how would anyone know she is doing enough either... or saying just reject God for he does not exist.... What proof do any of you that claim his "non-existance" have? NONE so offering that doubt as proof is not very helpful either is it?

 

[Chaplain David]

I wasn't offering that to be helpful. Just offering it because it might be true.

Just think how powerful it would be if you also said something to be helpful

 

[Thekla]

Clearly, many here are saying God should "do more" ...

if it is unfair to say that we must do more, how is it fair to say what God must do ?

 

[Tinker Grey]

And at the same time how would anyone know she is doing enough either... or saying just reject God for he does not exist.... What proof do any of you that claim his "non-existance" have? NONE so offering that doubt as proof is not very helpful either is it?

This might be true if I were trying to convince Criada of anything in this thread. I have offered her my story (in a PM) and empathized where her feelings have coincided with mine. I have emphasized that it is not her fault and that she is normal and that her feelings are normal.

I have not offered proof or argument. That was not the point of this thread.

In fact, I almost hope she finds her way back since it will certainly be a smoother path than one she appears to be on.

Nevertheless, there is great value in living with integrity.