Deconversion?

[Philothei]

Also, faith doesn't only do the things you said. Faith is also a cause of war, division, intolerance, and many other negative things. It's certainly not the ONLY cause of those things, but it is one nonetheless. Faith is not just a happy peachy lovely thing.

Faith does not cause these evils it is the fanaticism in the very ideas and human reasoning...How is this any different from Stalin following Communism to the extreme? Or shall we blame Communism for Stalin's murders? Some do ...But do not blame Christianity and faith in God for the sins of mere humans and their actions... That is not caused from "faith" in God but rather from faith on the given situation of a "messiah" outside of God... not God himself... Where in the words of Christ you find anywhere it says that faith in God promotes evil doing?

It is rather the interpretation of what people believe....that is merely to say what Christianity teaches...

 

[b&wpac4]

Where in the words of Christ you find anywhere it says that faith in God promotes evil doing?

"You are of your father the Devil."

 

[seashale76]

"You are of your father the Devil."

Context! Christ was very much saying that these people had no faith in God at all! John 8:37-47

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


OSB Commentary:
8:37-40 To be a child of Abraham, it is not enough to simply be related by blood; rather, Abraham's true children share his faith and virtue (Lk 3:8). St. John Chrysostom teaches that our Lord wanted to detach the Jews from racial pride and to teach them no longer to place their hope of salvation in being of the race of Abraham's children by nature, but to come to faith by their own free will. Their idea that being a descendant of Abraham was enough for salvation was the very thing that prevented them from coming to Christ.


8:42 Proceeded refers not to the Son coming eternally from the Father, but to Christ being sent from the Father to His Incarnation on earth.


8:44 Just as being a child of Abraham is based on sharing his attributes (see note for vv. 37-40), like-wise, those who reject Christ share the same attributes as the devil (in particular, a hatred for truth), and thus are rightly called the devil's children.

 

[Philothei]

"You are of your father the Devil."

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Christ is not passing a judgment but he diagnoses the problem... Those who are not with God and decide to cut off themselves from God simply put are of their father the Devil... So we are capable of thinking and making decisions... Chist is not "discriminating" of the spiritual condition of the Jews ....They are challenging his Divinity and calling him "possesed" so of course He will not spare the truth for the devil indeed was talking through them for they were disbelieving Him...

Furthere more you are taking veses out of their context.... this is truly pointless and irrelevant to a person who is considering deconverting... ​

 

[b&wpac4]

*shrug*

I call 'em like I see 'em. Just remember that exact quote whenever you see pictures of Jews with horns and devil tails. That's the source.

 

[oneofchrists]

b&wpac4

You belong to Your Father the devil...



Jesus warned his Jewish opponents the reality of Satan's murderous and deceitful influence.since "Salvation is from the Jews" (See note John 4:22) Jesus words do not apply to the Jewish people as a whole. His warning should caution both gentile and Jews follow Abraham's example( John 8:39-40 also Romans 4:16) You want. Points to determination of will. Their problem was basically spiritual, not intellectual. Being oriented toward Satan, they were bent on murder(v37) and eventually would suceed(v28), truth. Foreign to Satan and those who are His (see 14:6 note) Please read John *12 through until John 47 God Bless His Glorious name ...Dave

 

[seashale76]

*shrug*

I call 'em like I see 'em. Just remember that exact quote whenever you see pictures of Jews with horns and devil tails. That's the source.

Nah, I'll think of what I consider to be the true insidious source on the topic:

"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".-Karl Marx

 

[b&wpac4]

Nah, I'll think of what I consider to be the true insidious source on the topic:

"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".-Karl Marx

Nice try. The pictures came way before Marx.

 

[b&wpac4]

I'm done on this though. It isn't doing any good and is way off topic.

 

[seashale76]

Nice try. The pictures came way before Marx.

Which had nothing to do with Christ or the Church. It was certain Marxist influenced groups attempting to achieve utopia and blaming dialectic materialism on Jews that really got the ball rolling. Those certain Marxist influenced groups were about as anti-Christ as one could get.

 

[b&wpac4]

Which had nothing to do with Christ or the Church. It was certain Marxist influenced groups attempting to achieve utopia and blaming dialectic materialism on Jews that really got the ball rolling. Those certain Marxist influenced groups were about as anti-Christ as one could get.

Do you really think it was just all lovey dovey between Jews and Christians until Marx and his crew came around? Do you not know of the forced debates where the local Christian church would force the local rabbi to debate? If the rabbi happened to win, they were lucky if only the Talmuds were burned. But, again, I'm done. Sorry for bringing it up, I've been particularly irritable lately.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Guys, how insensitive is it that you've taken someone's thread on their struggles and turned it into a big argument?

Please, for Criada's sake, take it elsewhere.

 

[seashale76]

Do you really think it was just all lovey dovey between Jews and Christians until Marx and his crew came around? Do you not know of the forced debates where the local Christian church would force the local rabbi to debate? If the rabbi happened to win, they were lucky if only the Talmuds were burned. But, again, I'm done. Sorry for bringing it up, I've been particularly irritable lately.

I'll have to see sources. PM them to me if you like.

 

[b&wpac4]

PM them to me if you like.

Looks like I can't send you a PM for some reason.

 

[Zebra1552]

Anyone want to share why... or why not?
I'm at a crossroads right now, and feeling very confused.
If anyone has deconverted, or come close to doing so and come back to Christianity, can you give some reasons for your decision?

Indeed I can. My path has been somewhat of a rough one, Criada. I'm 22, as you can see... and ever since becoming a Christian I've tackled all sorts of issues. The main ones in my own life being an unbelieving family and having to reconcile my faith with having homosexual attractions. I became a Christian and was cleaning my mind up while everyone around me was dirtying theirs up. That was tough, but it's really tough knowing that if my mom and dad drop dead today, they probably won't be in heaven. Why would a loving God do that? Why separate family like that?

I realize that it's not God's choice. God lets them choose, and God doesn't send them to hell, they choose it by not following God. And I've really struggled with why God would allow people I care about to go to hell. It's not something I ever want to see happen. I may not really LIKE my parents, but they're all I've got for parents and I do love them, more than I care to admit sometimes. My sister was lost too for awhile... and I ended up pushing her there. Thankfully she's come back and is following God, but I was really worried for her too.

I've come to the conclusion that even if they did die and go to hell, God would still use that to bring other people closer to Him. I've seen it happen before... not too long ago, there were two students who died at a local high school where my church is, and you would be amazed at how much it brought people together to pray, fellowship, and support one another.

Anyway, on to the second bit... I've come to the conclusion that my attractions are not sinful. It's not like I can help them, and there's no way God would penalize me for something that isn't my fault. It's been really tough pulling through that and sifting through all the opinions to come to a solid, biblical conclusion, and I've been sorely tempted to say forget Christianity, I want to be gay and celebrate who I am. But God showed me what I was really missing: being able to accept love and loving on other people. God's done some amazing work in my life, and I know He can do the same for you.

Even if you do end up deconverting, we're always going to love you. You've got lots of prayer going on, and I don't think that'll stop even if you think Christianity isn't right for you.
God's peace,
Jaws

PS: I've recently been recommended the book Crazy Love. Haven't gotten the chance to read it much yet, prolly happen 'round Christmas, but hear it's great. Maybe you should check it out.

 

[Zebra1552]

I don't assert that it doesn't exist. I say there is no evidence for it, so there's no reason to believe it. I don't have to disprove it to lack belief in it.

On the other hand, people who assert that a deity exists are making an affirmative assertion. Therefore, the burden of proof is on them.



Again, I don't have to disprove it. The burden of proof is on those that assert its existence.



I don't choose what I believe. I either do or I don't.

Also, this is getting really off topic. If you want to continue this line of discussion, perhaps a new thread can be made about it.

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence for God's existence to assume a statistical probability of it. And anyway, what sort of proof are you using?

 

[Pwnzerfaust]

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence for God's existence to assume a statistical probability of it. And anyway, what sort of proof are you using?

What evidence?

What do you mean? I don't think I'm using any proof at all. As I said, the burden of proof is on the ones who assert something is real.

 

[appletreeblossom]

Criada -
I'm praying for you. Hang in there... call on Jesus and He will come. He promised to always be there. Struggles are a part of life. It's not easy, but He said we would never be alone.
Love you, sis.. PM me anytime.

 

[Zebra1552]

What evidence?

Let's start with all of the Bible, all of the patron Saints, then work our way through the millions of Christians alive today, shall we?

What do you mean? I don't think I'm using any proof at all. As I said, the burden of proof is on the ones who assert something is real.

What do you mean, what do I mean? If there's proof, there's got to be some sort of epistemological criteria for what the proof is, doesn't there? What criteria are you using? I like to use 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' myself.

 

[Pwnzerfaust]

Let's start with all of the Bible, all of the patron Saints, then work our way through the millions of Christians alive today, shall we?

So a story book, people who lived in an era when biographers regularly, ah, exaggerated, and the bandwagon fallacy? Not exactly strong...

What do you mean, what do I mean? If there's proof, there's got to be some sort of epistemological criteria for what the proof is, doesn't there? What criteria are you using? I like to use 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' myself.

I'm confused about what you think I'm supposed to be proving.