Decision making

[Received]

I'd like to start a discussion on how we make decisions. Some people decide based on facts alone. Others decide based on how they feel. Still others decide by weighing the feelings of others higher than their own. I'm sure there are other ways that people decide on something, and for most of us it's probably a mixture of methods.

What is puzzling to me lately is the fact that there are folks who maintain that the way *they* decide is the only "right" way. Is there one right way to decide something? If so, who/what determines what this way is? Or is there one right way per individual?

Lots of questions, but I don't have answers. Any takers?

I don't think people who self-assert their moral views as the only correct one would say that they decide the right and wrong so much as *know* the right one. Big difference, and what this psychologically comes down to is a person has reached the limitation of his knowledge and reasoning for any situation and implicitly says, "well, can't go no further, so where I finish is the best there is," and generalizes this to all other people. It's really egocentric, yeah.

To me decision making isn't so much about facts, reasons, and feelings, but the knowledge of what's right (based on reasoning and knowledge/facts) in conflict with how we feel. We decide in proportion to how much we're able to transcend our immediate desires. I know studying is a good thing, but my feelings are such that I *want* to watch Breaking Bad. My decision is all about pushing through my immediate inclinations (what the New Testament refers to nicely as "the flesh") in doing the right thing. This is the only reasonable explanation of free will or decision-making I know.

 

[dysert]

Did I consciously decide to believe in Santa? No.

Whether it was at the conscious level or not, you did decide to believe in Santa (if I understand what you're saying). I'm just wondering what factors went into coming to that decision.

 

[dysert]

Many abused spouses still believe that their mates love them - despite being abused. Does the evidence of abuse mean that their belief is wrong? I don't think so. Who's to say that someone can't love someone even if they abuse their lover?

Children, too, can believe that their parents don't love them if the children aren't getting what they want. However, the parents' not giving them what they want may be precisely *because* they love their children. Based on the parents' experiences, they know that certain things are bad for the child. So even though the child's belief is based on evidence, it's an incorrect belief. The evidence is trumped by the parents' experiences.

 

[quatona]

How did this get from "decision making" to "justified beliefs" that fast?

 

[dysert]

How did this get from "decision making" to "justified beliefs" that fast?

I'm not sure. But isn't a belief a decision? "I've decided to not believe in UFOs" is the same as "I don't believe in UFOs", isn't it?

 

[quatona]

I'm not sure.

Well, it´s your thread. If acquirition of beliefs was the topic you intended to discuss, ok.
I initially felt it was about decisions, and answered accordingly. The fact that you ignored my response already gave me the idea that you wanted to discuss something else.

But isn't a belief a decision?

No, I don´t think it is. But even - by stretching the concepts "belief" and "decision" so far that the latter is a case of the former, it would be just a very special case.

"I've decided to not believe in UFOs" is the same as "I don't believe in UFOs", isn't it?

Well, if it is the same, then the "I decided" is redundant and not a good example to shed light on the redundant part.
But I don´t think it´s the same, anyway. To me, the first statement is nonsense.

 

[Davian]

Whether it was at the conscious level or not, you did decide to believe in Santa (if I understand what you're saying). I'm just wondering what factors went into coming to that decision.

I was not a decision that I (my phenomenal self) was aware of. It happened as described in that post.

 

[Davian]

I don't think people who self-assert their moral views as the only correct one would say that they decide the right and wrong so much as *know* the right one. Big difference, and what this psychologically comes down to is a person has reached the limitation of his knowledge and reasoning for any situation and implicitly says, "well, can't go no further, so where I finish is the best there is," and generalizes this to all other people. It's really egocentric, yeah.

To me decision making isn't so much about facts, reasons, and feelings, but the knowledge of what's right (based on reasoning and knowledge/facts) in conflict with how we feel. We decide in proportion to how much we're able to transcend our immediate desires. I know studying is a good thing, but my feelings are such that I *want* to watch Breaking Bad. My decision is all about pushing through my immediate inclinations (what the New Testament refers to nicely as "the flesh") in doing the right thing. This is the only reasonable explanation of free will or decision-making I know.

You have free will? What is it like?

 

[Davian]

I'm not sure. But isn't a belief a decision? "I've decided to not believe in UFOs" is the same as "I don't believe in UFOs", isn't it?

Not at all. "I don't believe in UFOs" is a statement of your position on a particular topic.

"I've decided to not believe in UFOs" - I still do not see how belief is a conscious decision. While I have never believed in "UFOs" (as in extraterrestrial visitors from other planets), there was a time when I thought there was something "more" to crop circles than the surreptitious actions of humans. When it was pointed out to me that the evidence I was considering was a case of anomaly hunting, the belief went away. No conscious decision on my part.

Is quatona correct? Are trying in some way to justify your (religious, I presume) beliefs?

 

[Davian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm not sure. But isn't a belief a decision? "I've decided to not believe in UFOs" is the same as "I don't believe in UFOs", isn't it?

No. Decide right now to believe the sky is green.

 

[Received]

You have free will? What is it like?

It's like nothing you ever tried, man. $25.

And I wasn't saying I was having free will. I was juxtaposing free will with choice-making, but I'm not saying decision- or choice-making implies free will. I'm just saying that transcending our immediate desires by "pushing through" is what decision-making, choice-making, and freedom (in the non-free will sense necessarily) is like. As opposed to just magically calculating a right or best answer and choosing it because it's the right or best answer, as if we're robots who automatically line up with what we think is best or most reasonable/logical.

 

[Davian]

It's like nothing you ever tried, man. $25.

And I wasn't saying I was having free will. I was juxtaposing free will with choice-making, but I'm not saying decision- or choice-making implies free will. I'm just saying that transcending our immediate desires by "pushing through" is what decision-making, choice-making, and freedom (in the non-free will sense necessarily) is like. As opposed to just magically calculating a right or best answer and choosing it because it's the right or best answer, as if we're robots who automatically line up with what we think is best or most reasonable/logical.

How does this relate to beliefs in gods? Do you think those are a choice, or decision?

 

[dysert]

Not at all. "I don't believe in UFOs" is a statement of your position on a particular topic.

"I've decided to not believe in UFOs" - I still do not see how belief is a conscious decision. While I have never believed in "UFOs" (as in extraterrestrial visitors from other planets), there was a time when I thought there was something "more" to crop circles than the surreptitious actions of humans. When it was pointed out to me that the evidence I was considering was a case of anomaly hunting, the belief went away. No conscious decision on my part.

Is quatona correct? Are trying in some way to justify your (religious, I presume) beliefs?

No, quatona is not correct. I am not interested in justifying my beliefs, religious or otherwise. This topic was started so that we could discuss how decisions are made. As the discussion moved along it became clear (to me) that decisions form beliefs, and that we believe something because we've decided to (whether it's a conscious decision or not). If someone is hung up on the view that decisions form beliefs, then they should just stick to the "decisions" part of the topic and voice an opinion on how decisions are formed, e.g., does evidence always trump everything else, do emotions play a role, what if the emotions conflict with the evidence, etc.

This is a philosophical discussion - not a justification of my positions on things.

 

[dysert]

No. Decide right now to believe the sky is green.

I won't make that decision because I don't believe the sky is green.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I won't make that decision because I don't believe the sky is green.

-_- but if belief is truly a choice, surely you could make yourself believe it. Unless you are willing to accept the fact that belief goes beyond conscious choice.

 

[dysert]

-_- but if belief is truly a choice, surely you could make yourself believe it. Unless you are willing to accept the fact that belief goes beyond conscious choice.

1. I do think that belief is truly a choice; no one has proved otherwise.
2. While theoretically I could make myself believe it I choose not to.
3. It is not necessarily a "fact" that belief goes beyond conscious choice.

 

[PsychoSarah]

1. I do think that belief is truly a choice; no one has proved otherwise.
2. While theoretically I could make myself believe it I choose not to.
3. It is not necessarily a "fact" that belief goes beyond conscious choice.

Why choose not to? No one has ever met my challenge, and it will only take 1 to change my mind. Make yourself believe the sky is green, even for just a day, and you are going to drastically change my philosophical outlook.

 

[bhsmte]

1. I do think that belief is truly a choice; no one has proved otherwise.
2. While theoretically I could make myself believe it I choose not to.
3. It is not necessarily a "fact" that belief goes beyond conscious choice.

And, the reason you choose not to believe the sky is green, is because you would not be able to reconcile the belief in your own mind. In other words, you would know the belief is false, and would only be fooling yourself.

Those who have strong psychological reasons to believe something, lets say the sky is green, have unique abilities to self rationalize their belief is true and work overtime, to; deny any evidence that goes against their belief, use confirmation bias and selective reasoning, to protect the belief.

 

[Received]

How does this relate to beliefs in gods? Do you think those are a choice, or decision?

You can't choose immediately to believe in anything, but there is some degree of freedom involved in opening yourself up to things. You know, angry conservatives who label liberals as the devil rather than consider what they're saying. Same with theists and atheists. In this sense there is definitely a "will to believe."