Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

[Colabomb]

”What I am saying I say not with the Lord’s authority” 2 Cor 11:17

Indicating that he did speak for the Lord elsewhere. As there is no similar statement concerning Homosexuality, what is your point?

 

[Colabomb]

The relationships are referred to as being unnatural. The Greek words physin and paraphysin have been translated to mean natural and unnatural respectively. Contrary to popular belief, the word paraphysin does not mean "to go against the laws of nature", but rather engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic for that person. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 11:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. Thus the passages correctly reads that it would be unnatural for heterosexuals to live as homosexuals, and for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals.

The Men in the passage were burning for lust for one another. Women were having sex with Women.

They were gay.

According to your theory, they did nothing wrong, as they were gay and were having sex with one another.

Why then did Paul condemn it?

If your theory were correct, the passage would read:

"They burned with lust for one another, yet despite their natural gay attraction, they had sex with the opposite gender".

 

[crumbs2000]

The Men in the passage were burning for lust for one another. Women were having sex with Women.

They were gay.

According to your theory, they did nothing wrong, as they were gay and were having sex with one another.

Why then did Paul condemn it?

If your theory were correct, the passage would read:

"They burned with lust for one another, yet despite their natural gay attraction, they had sex with the opposite gender".

Perhaps Paul had such homophobia because he may have latent homosexual urges. I can't confirm it now but I'll dig up the study that found most violent homophobes are in fact latently gay.

 

[Colabomb]

Perhaps Paul had such homophobia because he may have latent homosexual urges. I can't confirm it now but I'll dig up the study that found most violent homophobes are in fact latently gay.

Or he was under the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost?

 

[intricatic]

Perhaps Paul had such homophobia because he may have latent homosexual urges. I can't confirm it now but I'll dig up the study that found most violent homophobes are in fact latently gay.

That's an entirely different subject matter that has it's own logical inconsistencies.

 

[Colabomb]

Perhaps Paul had such homophobia because he may have latent homosexual urges. I can't confirm it now but I'll dig up the study that found most violent homophobes are in fact latently gay.

Which is it, was he a homophobe? Or am I misinterpreting the Passage.

If I am misinterpreting the Passage, he is not a homophobe.

If he is a homophobe, than I am not misinterpreting the passage.

 

[intricatic]

The relationships are referred to as being unnatural. The Greek words physin and paraphysin have been translated to mean natural and unnatural respectively. Contrary to popular belief, the word paraphysin does not mean "to go against the laws of nature", but rather engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic for that person. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 11:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. Thus the passages correctly reads that it would be unnatural for heterosexuals to live as homosexuals, and for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals.

Anachronism; when this was writen there was no abstract notion of natural homosexuality or heterosexuality; there were only homosexual actions and heterosexual actions. Natural sexuality was seen to be heterosexual; between one male and one female, anything else was considered unnatural. You're reading modern ideas into the scripture.

Cure: Stop thinking along the lines of politics.

 

[Kgreg]

Kgreg's comments in blue.

According to his icon here yes does seem to be a Unitarian…so what?

He doesn't believe in God and is not a Christian. You seem to agree on every point of his "theology". Interesting.

He seems to disagree with you on this point.
Are saying you know the details of his personal relationship with God better than he does?

I never said any such think, and you know that


Does his wife know?

He's a confessed homosexual in a "homosexual marriage" with another man. He doesn't have a "wife".

why?

Didn't think you would answer and state your position on the essentials of orthodox Christianity, but I think they are quite clear to everyone what your "theology" is. I don't think the Pope agrees with you though.

Have a great day "HunterRose"! Say hello to "outlaw" for me!

 

[Kgreg]

Quote

Originally Posted by: Kgreg

Hmmmm.....

Care to answer some questions "HunterRose"?

Do you believe in the Triune God?

Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Do you believe in the subsitutionary attonement of Jesus for our sins?

Do you believe that homosexual sex acts are righteous before God?

Do you believe there is a heaven and that the one and only God dwells there?

Do you believe there is a hell and that all people who don't accept salvation via Jesus go there for eternity?

Your profile doesn't really say much about you at all. Just so we better understand where you are coming from, as it doesn't really seem very Roman Catholic Church, would you please answer the questions?

Thanks.

How is this relevant. This line of questioning sounds like argumentum ad hominem.

Hunter Rose has countered your scripture with scripture. There has not been one example of Hunter Rose adding anything else to those scripture. Why do they have to justify what they wrote?

Actually, it isn't "argumentum ad hominem" (hmmmm....one of "outlaws" favorite accusations). It's perfectly valid for a Christian to ask another professed Christian where s/he stands on these essentials of the faith.

Care to let us know where you stand on them, crumby?

 

[Kgreg]

I'm pleased to answer these:


Do you believe in the Triune God? Yes

Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? Yes

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Yes

Do you believe in the subsitutionary attonement of Jesus for our sins? Yes

Do you believe that homosexual sex acts are righteous before God? No

Do you believe there is a heaven and that the one and only God dwells there? Yes

Do you believe there is a hell and that all people who don't accept salvation via Jesus go there for eternity? Yes



All are welcomed to answer these questions, and please do, and let your fellow Christians know where you stand.

 

[intricatic]

Do you believe in the Triune God?
Yes.
Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God?
Yes.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
Yes.
Do you believe in the subsitutionary attonement of Jesus for our sins?
Yes.
Do you believe that homosexual sex acts are righteous before God?
No.
Do you believe there is a heaven and that the one and only God dwells there?
Yes.
Do you believe there is a hell and that all people who don't accept salvation via Jesus go there for eternity?
Yes.

Well, that was pointless. Does this mean I'm Catholic?

 

[mommylatier2002]

I'm pleased to answer these:


Do you believe in the Triune God? Yes

Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? Yes, EVERY WORD IN IT, not just some

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Yes

Do you believe in the subsitutionary attonement of Jesus for our sins? Yes

Do you believe that homosexual sex acts are righteous before God? No

Do you believe there is a heaven and that the one and only God dwells there? Yes

Do you believe there is a hell and that all people who don't accept salvation via Jesus go there for eternity? Yes

from what I can see a lot of Christians are divided on these issues which is contrary to the Word (even though the word tells us it will happen) David Wilkerson gives a great sermon called "Passing under the Rod" on Sermonindex.net regarding Ezekiel 20. Great sermon!

 

[Colabomb]

I'm pleased to answer these:


Do you believe in the Triune God? Yes

Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? Yes

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Yes

Do you believe in the subsitutionary attonement of Jesus for our sins? Yes

Do you believe that homosexual sex acts are righteous before God? No

Do you believe there is a heaven and that the one and only God dwells there? Yes

Do you believe there is a hell and that all people who don't accept salvation via Jesus go there for eternity? Yes



All are welcomed to answer these questions, and please do, and let your fellow Christians know where you stand.

ditto

 

[GenemZ]

No this is part of the topic. You literalist use the bible as the inerrant word of God to prosecute your case for saying that Homosexuals are condemned.

If a homosexual believes in Christ? He is not condemned. One is not condemned by one's sin.

If a straight laced morally legalistic person rejects Jesus Christ? He is condemned.

Homosexuality was condemned on the Cross. Not the one who finds him/herself caught up in homosexuality.

Since the bible didn;t fall out of the sky from the heavens nor was it written by angels as scribes for God, I don't see it anymore than just a book which contains essences of Gods message intermingled with the bias and prejudice by generations of human writers.

The Holy Spirit did not show you that.

Isaiah 5:20 niv
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
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The Bible is antagonistic towards your bias and prejudice. You like homosexuality. Its to be expected in that case. For you like homosexuality.

It is not a new thing to see what you are doing. In the generations the Bible was written? Homosexual expression out side of Israel was a norm every culture and easily accepted. Israel was the odd man out. It was Israel that was strange and queer to the world.

And, the Jews at one time were of the same mind set as those nations. God had to condition the Jews away from embracing sins easily. That is why so many Jews had to be killed off by God before entering the Promised Land. 40 years in the wilderness and only two families of the original adult group made it in. Joshua's family, and Calib's. All the rest came from the younger generation who accepted Moses daily teachings. The adults rebelled against God's Word, even when they knew the source was from God! So how much easier is it now for you to rebel against God's Word? They did. And, they saw the Red Sea part.

Put together as one would compile a greatest hits album, and yet people would profess it to be complete???

Human bias expressed, professing to be wise. Nothing new under the sun.

There are many things that are totally absurd science in the bible. I've posted it ad nauseum please read it and you can try and explain. I can post it again if you want.

Science came later on and decided on how to categorize certain things. Jews saw all winged creatures as 'winged creatures.' They did not give a hoot if something was a bat or a bird. It had wings. That's all that mattered. Why can't you understand this?

The whole Genesis book is plagued with errors.

Its you who are in error. Should we now reject you just like you want to reject Genesis?

The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. Genesis 1:1 The earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know that the true order of events was just the opposite.

You are probably looking at fossil data from a prior creation and superimposing it upon this one. Stupid creatures scientists can be when they remain ignorant of God's Word.

“And God said, Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) and “. . .And the evening and the morning were the first day” (Genesis 1 :5), versus “And God said, ‘Let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night....’ “And God made two lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also… And the evening and morning were the fourth day” (Genesis 1 :14-19).

These violates two major facts. Light cannot exist without a sun, and secondly, how can morning be distinguished from evening unless there is a sun and moon?

Revelation 22:5 niv
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.


​

As you can read.... God does not need the sun to provide light. God made the firefly. If God wanted to (and, he did)? He could have originally created Lucifer to bear light and herald in the morning of each day. He could have created certain angels (morning stars) and have them to be as signs in the sky for seasons and migration of prehistoric animals. Like he had done in previous creations, not this one. You limit God.

Read the passage you quoted from? It does not say that God created [BARA] the sun. The Hebrew says God made the sun to bear light. The orb we now call the sun had been already created before Genesis 1. At that point it was simply 'made' into a light bearer.

God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament (Genesis 1:6-8). This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program.

The earth is found wrapped in a giant ice pack in Genesis 1. The Holy Spirit is hovering over (Hebrew means, like a hen sits on her eggs to warm them) as to melt the ice pack. Then God provides light for more warmth. This planet had been previously judged and condemned when Satan and his angels were the ones with dominion over the planet.

2 Peter 3:5-6 (New International Version)
"But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."


​

What we find in Genesis 1 and 2, is God re-establishing this planet's surface with a new creation to replace what had been judged by God. This time, dominion is given to man, not angels.

Plants are made on the third day (Genesis 1:11) before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (Genesis 1:14-19).

Plants, in God's mind (it says, only God saw) were created. It was not until Genesis 2, that these plants began to sprout. Genesis 1, was God's declaration of what was to be! Being omniscient, he saw the final outcome of what he was creating! He was creating in Genesis 1, what was to become plants once they began to sprout and grow! Yet, being God..... he saw what it was all to become as already having come to pass.

What he created in chapter 1, did not materialize until what we find in Genesis 2.

Genesis 2:5 niv
and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground.
​

“And God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind… ‘And the evening and the morning were the third day” (Genesis 1:11-13), versus “And God said, ‘Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life… And God created - great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly… And the evening and the morning were the fifth day” (Genesis 1:20-23). Genesis says that life existed first on the land as plants and later the seas teemed with living creatures. Geological science can prove that the sea teemed with animals and vegetable life long before vegetation and life appeared on land.

Science is dealing with data found from prehistoric creations. Not this one. Being ignorant of this fact, they err to assume the fossils reveal previous life from this creation. The order of past creations could have easily followed a different order in their creation.

Besides..... Genesis 2, does say that plants just began to sprout and in Genesis 1, sea life was already established. Yet, the time differential between this creation, and a prehistoric one could have been on different timetables. Maybe sea life existed much longer before the land's life came into being in prehistoric creation. Many scientists does not realize it. But they are dealing with distinctly different creations from this current one, with what they find in fossil remains of prior creations.


“And God said, ‘Let the water bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven” (Genesis 1:20). Birds did not emerge from water.

20 "And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."


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That corrected translation says birds did not come from the water.

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, the beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made…every thing that creepth upon the earth after his kind…" (Genesis 1:24-25). Science contends that reptiles were created long before mammals, not simultaneously.

They are looking at fossil evidence from a previous creation.

Should I answer more of your Scriptural questions? If need be. For, now, these are something for you to chew on.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[ThyNeighbor]

This is the last post that I will be making in these forums. My intention was never to debate or attempt to change anyone’s mind on whether homosexuality is a sin or not. Rather, I was hoping to get some people to examine their hearts.

Reading some of the posts in this forum just breaks my heart. Can you not see??? The thinly veiled hatred towards homosexual men and women is certainly not lost on them. “Love the sinner but hate the sin”, is not biblical. The arrogance, judgment, and despise for gays not only pushes them out of the church, but into the waiting arms of the enemy. And the enemy is only too happy to take these orphans in and whisper into their ears.
He tells them, “God hates you so why bother?”, “you’re going to go to hell anyways so why try to live a moral life?”, “how can there exist a loving God if he created you gay and then hates you for it?”, “there is no right or wrong so you might as well do as you please.” And many lost gay men and women listen.

And then the irony of it all is that the church then points to what they have created and says, “see how they are. See what they do,” to justify their own actions and attitudes.

I am a gay man, but I am a Christian first and foremost. I am one of the “lucky” few who never lost faith in God. But I see so many that have. They hate Christians because of the way Christians have treated them and, in turn, hate God. Some of these gay men and women were once believers.

Mat 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around the neck.


Pro 18:21 Those who love to talk will experience the consequences, for the tongue can kill or nourish life.

Who have you killed today?

 

[GenemZ]

This is the last post that I will be making in these forums. My intention was never to debate or attempt to change anyone’s mind on whether homosexuality is a sin or not. Rather, I was hoping to get some people to examine their hearts.



I am a gay man, but I am a Christian first and foremost. I am one of the “lucky” few who never lost faith in God. But I see so many that have. They hate Christians because of the way Christians have treated them and, in turn, hate God. Some of these gay men and women were once believers.

The point you miss from your own confession? You will leave all those others to be without excuse before God. For, in spite of facing the same things, you refused to give up your faith!

Mat 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around the neck.

Just to keep this in perspective. That passage speaks of child molestors.

Matthew 18:6-7 (New International Version)
"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"


​

At the time of writing of that passage? The use of children for sexual pleasure was a norm. They were to be found in Roman temples.. and.. Roman soldiers took young boys as armor bearers in the field. These boys were also used for sexual purpose.

That was the norm in Rome when Christ died on the Cross. I could give web page links for such information, but it would make this post to receive a warning. So, do your own research on that one.

I hope you can see how far the Holy Spirit, living in the church and having gone into all the world, has transformed the world since then!

Homosexuality was a norm in the world (outside of Israe) before the Day of Pentecost. Up until that time, the only the Jews were anti homosexuality because of their Torah. To the unbelieving world? Anti homosexuality of the Jews was seen as a foreign concept.

What is happening today is the world is making ready for the Antichrist. The world must return to how it was before the Holy Spirit began transforming the world after the Church age began. It will be a time of a reversal of the Day of Pentecost. Its begun......and as I speak, homosexuality is being made more and more acceptable in cultures where Christianity once reigned.


Grace and tttruth, GeneZ

 

[Lydiajane]

I am a lesbian, and some "rules" in the bible (more so in the old testament) were only set for a certain minority of people for a certain time due to situations in the land and stuff, the rules are now void, they are irrelevent. many faiths like, judaism and so fouth still use these laws, which does not signify christianity as such. Christianity is not all about rules and regulations it's about the personal relationship you have with god! his love is unconditional, he didn't say you are worthy of death if you sin, those were in the old rules, he died for the sin! bro's and sister's our god is gr8! and fellow GLBT members of christ! break the mould, pull on through, cos you know god loves you!

 

[Lydiajane]

god loves you if you gay,
he loves you if your straight,
he loves you if oyu have brown eyes,
he loves you if they are blue,
he just hopes you love him too

 

[HelloToAll]

god loves you if you gay,
he loves you if your straight,
he loves you if oyu have brown eyes,
he loves you if they are blue,
he just hopes you love him too

God does love everyone. But, God does not love the sin.

 

[GenemZ]

Perhaps Paul had such homophobia because he may have latent homosexual urges. I can't confirm it now but I'll dig up the study that found most violent homophobes are in fact latently gay.

Paul was not a violent homophobe. He had been a genius prodigy in the Religious heirarchy of Judaism. He was to Judaism, what Bill Gates is to the computer world.

Paul had memorized the Law of God perfectly. Yet, he was now a sinner saved by grace in Christ. Homosexuality is condemned in the Law. God entrusted his Word to the Jews! Israel had no problem with homosexuality. It was Rome that was running wild. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. You do not see the others speaking about homosexuality, because they were sent to the Jews.

To call Paul homophobic?

That would be like calling a policeman who just gave you a ticket for doing 120 in a 65MPH zone? "Tachophobic."

There is no substance to your argument. Pauls words on the matter were not in regards to his personal feelings, nor fears. His words were based upon his knowledge of God's Word.

What causes Christians fear in the face of homosexuals who openly defy God's Word? Is not their fear of homosexuality. It is their fear of seeing someone arrogantly defying God's will. They fear for the others life, and feel powerless to get him to see his need for a real Salvation. One which really saves.

Jude 1:23 niv
"snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."


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Not all fear is understood by the other who is blind to what he is doing. If it were? The one fearing would not be having need to.

In Christ, GeneZ

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