Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

[PrincetonGuy]

I used to know someone who is a translator for the US Army. This person's native language is Greek.

If I can paraphrase? This word does not mean homosexual, specifically. Its a word used to describe someone who is uninhibited and totally amoral, sexually.

One day it could be sex one way. The next day, another. Or, the next hour, for that matter. Child, man, woman, beast..... it did not matter. We could call such a person today....a "hyper, indiscriminate, sex maniac."

Greek word usage has changed dramatically over the past 1,950 years. What is relevant is how the words that Paul used were used and understood in his day, not ours.

 

[MapleLeaf]

I used to know someone who is a translator for the US Army. This person's native language is Greek.

If I can paraphrase? This word does not mean homosexual, specifically. Its a word used to describe someone who is uninhibited and totally amoral, sexually.

One day it could be sex one way. The next day, another. Or, the next hour, for that matter. Child, man, woman, beast..... it did not matter. We could call such a person today....a "hyper, indiscriminate, sex maniac."

In Rome it appears there were lot's of bisexual activity. Homosexual expression was not always exclusively homosexual. Rome itself, was sexually amoral. If we could go back in time with a time machine, we would be shocked and disgusted to see what went on as the norm back then. That is why the Church enpowered by the Holy Spirit went into all the world. To transform the world from Satan's image, into something closer to God's. We have no idea how what shocks us today would have been shrugged off back then.

In Hebrew the words do not say Homosexual either. They can be understood to mean many things (something as simple as unclean for example).

Hebrew has no vowels and the text was written as one long word - they didn't use punctuation or break between words as we do today.

You read into the Hebrew text a vowel and a meaning based on the context it was in, leading of course to many different definitions for the same set of characters. Of course someone could also parse the Hebrew characters differently and come up with completely different words and of course different meanings.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

In Hebrew the words do not say Homosexual either. They can be understood to mean many things (something as simple as unclean for example).

I do not know what Hebrew writings you are talking about, but the Hebrew Scriptures put it like this:

Lev 18:22ואת זכר לא תשׁכב משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה הוא׃​

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. (The Holy Scriptures, published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1917)

Lev. 18:22. 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. (NASB, 1995)

Lev 20:13ואישׁ אשׁר ישׁכב את זכר משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה עשׂו שׁניהם מות יומתו דמיהם׃​

Lev 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (The Holy Scriptures, published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1917)

Lev. 20:13. 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. (NASB, 1995)

 

[GenemZ]

In Hebrew the words do not say Homosexual either. They can be understood to mean many things (something as simple as unclean for example).

Hebrew has no vowels and the text was written as one long word - they didn't use punctuation or break between words as we do today.

You read into the Hebrew text a vowel and a meaning based on the context it was in, leading of course to many different definitions for the same set of characters. Of course someone could also parse the Hebrew characters differently and come up with completely different words and of course different meanings.

Put it to you like this.....

Having been brought up a Jew?

Having seen writings by Rabbis of past times concerning "Halachah" (rules for living =binding and loosing). The Jews looked down upon Gentiles because of (among other things) their practice of homosexual acts. They did not view it as being a problem with Jews. Wonder why?

And? Pro-homosexual apologists in recent years have been looking for every angle and loophole they can come up with to make us forget what was reality to the ancients.

It is true. The Romans did not have a term for "homosexual" because many of them were bisexual, and did not tend to form exclusive relations with the same sex. But, that does not mean they did not have words for homosexual expression.

Think about this. In 2000 years (if man is still on earth) And, someone reads in what will be ancient English to them...

"Bob sneered and told George, that Roger is gay."

You know what might happen? Someone will grab a dictionary on old English words and conclude that Bob sneered because he was jealous of Roger for being very happy. Because? The Dictionary he used to look up "gay" did not contain the slang meaning. For its use was discontinued in 2075, after homosexuality became openly accepted.

The Romans and Greeks had words for gay expression back then. Many practiced homosexuality and pedastry..... bestiality was even offered in the pagan Temples in Rome. They gave no thought for it. They also did not know what true love was. God's love.

That's when things began to change, when they did begin to know God's love. That is why homosexual expression has died down over the centuries. Gradually, God the Holy Spirit has been transforming the world because Christ is being believed on. Right now, in Muslim countries where Christianity is forbidden, male pederasty is a common occurance. Its an open secret...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_worldhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

I have heard first hand accounts from some who were stationed over in Muslim lands. That is what caused me to look for documentation in the first place.

Lands where the Holy Spirit is persecuted and forbidden, things like this go on with consent and silence. When homosexuality is widely accepted? God's Spirit is not welcome.

Eyes open, GeneZ

 

[HunterRose]

Greek word usage has changed dramatically over the past 1,950 years. What is relevant is how the words that Paul used were used and understood in his day, not ours.

And what is important to note is that the word Arsenokoites was not understood to be “homosexual” Ancient Greek had specific and well known words for homosexual but Paul did not use those he used the incredibly obscure Arsenokoites. Other contemporary writes used Arsenokoites as well but they used it in reference to men who employed prostitutes.

 

[Proselyte]

This thread hurts my head.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

And what is important to note is that the word Arsenokoites was not understood to be “homosexual” Ancient Greek had specific and well known words for homosexual but Paul did not use those he used the incredibly obscure Arsenokoites. Other contemporary writes used Arsenokoites as well but they used it in reference to men who employed prostitutes.

The standard Greek lexicon used by New Testament scholars all over the world, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker gives us the following meanings, “a male who practices homosexuality, pederast, sodomite.”

I have here in my personal library approximately 510 volumes on the Apostle Paul and his writings written by scholars representing scores of denominations and affiliations, and numerous volumes on various early Greek dialects, and the evidence that the Greek concept expressed by the Greek word ἀρσενοκοῖται is best translated in English as “homosexual” is massive. Indeed, not even one of these scholars is of the opinion that the Apostle Paul did not condemn the practice of homosexuality as a sin of depravity.

Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-32 that the practice of homosexuality is the consequence of men and women suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and therefore being given over by God to a depraved mind. Advocates of homosexual rights make a habit of deliberately and willfully distorting the truth in a vain attempt to justify a lifestyle that the Apostle Paul cites as the ultimate example of “a depraved mind.”

Rom. 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23. and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27. and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29. being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30. slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31. without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32. and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (NASB, 1995)

The ordinance of God:

Lev 18:22ואת זכר לא תשׁכב משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה הוא׃​

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. (The Holy Scriptures, published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1917)

Lev. 18:22. 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. (NASB, 1995)

Lev 20:13ואישׁ אשׁר ישׁכב את זכר משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה עשׂו שׁניהם מות יומתו דמיהם׃​

Lev 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (The Holy Scriptures, published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1917)

Lev. 20:13. 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. (NASB, 1995)

 

[GenemZ]

The standard Greek lexicon used by New Testament scholars all over the world, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker gives us the following meanings, “a male who practices homosexuality, pederast, sodomite.”

The word could have been applied to one as such. Yet, the word could have been applied to a person who was not to be trusted around the neighbor's sheep.

Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-32 that the practice of homosexuality is the consequence of men and women suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and therefore being given over by God to a depraved mind. Advocates of homosexual rights make a habit of deliberately and willfully distorting the truth in a vain attempt to justify a lifestyle that the Apostle Paul cites as the ultimate example of “a depraved mind.”

Homosexuality was the result of being handed over to worship what was created. Why? Because of their rejection of the Creator. Satan and his angels are what is included in that creation package. And, fallen angels were the first homosexuals. Men take on the image of what they worship. Even, reprobate men. If interested, I will develop this concept for you.

25. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

That worship was ultimately directed to none other than Satan and demons.

29. being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,

That's the very nature of fallen angels!

30. slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31. without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;

Looks like the personality profile of the Antichrist.

32. and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (NASB, 1995)

Worthy of death (according to the Law of the land in Israel). Israel was a theocracy. God provided the law. Other lands are not theocracies. But, God has expressed his Divine attitude toward certain acts of unrighteousness. So, Paul acknowledged that these types were 'worthy' of death. For Paul was looking at it from a Divine perspective. Yet, Paul did not command that they be put to death. For the Law was only given to the Jews.

The ordinance of God:

Lev 18:22ואת זכר לא תשׁכב משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה הוא׃​

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. (The Holy Scriptures, published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1917)

Lev. 18:22. 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. (NASB, 1995)

Lev 20:13ואישׁ אשׁר ישׁכב את זכר משׁכבי אשׁה תועבה עשׂו שׁניהם מות יומתו דמיהם׃​

Lev 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (The Holy Scriptures, published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1917)

Lev. 20:13. 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. (NASB, 1995)

Ancient Jewish writings reveal that the Jews only saw homosexuality as being a practice of the "Goyim." That is why the Jews in Jesus day showed no qualms of looking down their noses at the Gentiles.

But, now that the Holy Spirit was to go into all the world and to transform the lives of Gentiles? Now, the Jewish believers had to learn to drop what was needed in the past to keep them separated onto God as his people. Its Satan's nations that had wide spread homosexual practice. God was about to conquer those lands with the power of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel!

If the Church did not go into all the world? Homosexual practice would not be blinked at today. And, paganism would also be the norm.

The Romans in Paul's day had their temple worship which involved wide open choices for sexual expression AS PART OF THEIR WORSHIP! It did not matter. One day they could have sex with a child prostitute. The next, with someone of the same sex. Even animals were kept in a part of the temple for such worship expression.

No wonder Paul is sometimes accused of being homophobic. Very few understand what it was he was having to deal with as to get righteousness to be given an open door to enter into. He had to first expose, then offer the solution.

1 Corinthians 6:11 niv
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

​

Expose, because according to the norms of the Romans, they saw no wrong in their practice of evil.

Peter comes off was being not uptight and legalistic to those who are pro-gay. The reason? He was sent to the Jews! The Jews had no need of being told these sins were wrong. They had already been conditioned by centuries of being influenced by the Law of Moses!

Jews already knew and understood. No need to command them on such matters. Paul, in contrast, having been sent to the Gentiles. Was dealing with a bunch of moral retards. He needed to explain to the Gentiles what was blatantly obvious to the Jews. God gave Paul great love and patience.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Sam Gamgee]

So, it's been 43 pages now...

what did we decide?

Is homosexuality wrong?

 

[Colabomb]

So, it's been 43 pages now...

what did we decide?

Is homosexuality wrong?

That was decided long before this thread began.

 

[GenemZ]

So, it's been 43 pages now...

what did we decide?

Is homosexuality wrong?

We are not deciding this issue for the world run by Satan. For the world will eventually openly embrace homsosexuality, like it did thousands of years ago.

What we are doing is going on record before the LORD.

Are we for Him? ...Or, against?

That is what is being decided!

Will we eat forbidden fruit as to override God's will? Or, will we obey, when the world goes after another direction.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[Sam Gamgee]

We are not deciding this issue for the world run by Satan. For the world will eventually openly embrace homsosexuality, like it did thousands of years ago.

What we are doing is going on record before the LORD.

Are we for Him? ...Or, against?

That is what is being decided!

Will we eat forbidden fruit as to override God's will? Or, will we obey, when the world goes after another direction.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

You are obviously very passionate about your beliefs
I respect that.

 

[frantheman]

You will just have to accept that not every Christian, and very few non-Christians think homosexuality is wrong.

But they should..Leviticus 20:13 NIV / KJV

 

[frantheman]

Well I think that many of the passages in the Bible are not right, I follow my heart and let the Bible be just a point of reference. I appreciate you disagree though, God speaks to us all in different ways.

But isn't everyone's heart sinful?

 

[frantheman]

Awesome!

Time and time again I read people here who rely on the value of their own hearts instead of the Bible. Time and Time again we have seen that man is fallible and our own hearts lead down the wrong path.

AMEN!!