Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

[Proselyte]

We were trying but you keep sidestepping the question: “What is this “gay lifestyle” you keep brining up… is it anything like the “black lifestyle”?” And spurting propaganda

Galatians 3:28 KJV: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I am tolerant of all racial groups. The Bible backs that tolerance up in the above quote. You are trying to turn a sexual orientation issue into a racial issue. It's very transparent.

Crumbs and Hunter, thanks for answering the question about your view on the Bible. If you don't see it as the inerrant Word of God, it's only human of you to invent your own brand of Christianity, according to your world view. I understand where you are coming from, so debate on this matter is moot at this time. Perhaps in time you will change your mind.

 

[Proselyte]

Proselyte,

As you have seen in this “debate” there have been many professing Christians that do not agree that homosexuality is a sin. I understand that your view is different than theirs and I am not here to debate the rightness or wrongness of what scripture has to say on it. However, your reason for even posing the question was to find a way to reach, and hopefully lead to Christ, your non Christian friends. How would you feel if they were to read the posting in this forum? Do you think that they would be brought any closer to accepting Jesus by what the Christians here have written? What do you think their view of Jesus might be after reading all this?

Good question Thy Neighbor. I am used to the Bible being the inerrant Word of God among Christians I know. Among those people, there isn't much debate. Here, things seem to be much more liberal. I frankly think my non-Christian friends would be shocked in hearing some of the liberalism from Christians. It seems so contrary to what traditional Christianity has held to after Jesus paved the way.

 

[Proselyte]

Proselyte, from the discussions we have had in the past 6 or so pages, it's obvious that the bible has many many contradictory teachings in it. As I have stated before, the problem I have with many literalists is that they seem to ignore certain parts of the bible and choose others to prosecute their prejudices.

Crumbs, I don't expect anyone to be able to fathom and explain all parts of the Bible. I certainly don't. It doesn't mean it's in error or wrong because of our ignorance to it. It's the Word of God, how could we? I once thought like you, so I understand your viewpoint. After much study, praying and faith, I came to accept the Bible fully. Especially after letting go all the worldly desires that were weighing me down and keeping me from giving in to God 100%.

 

[intricatic]

Proselyte, from the discussions we have had in the past 6 or so pages, it's obvious that the bible has many many contradictory teachings in it. As I have stated before, the problem I have with many literalists is that they seem to ignore certain parts of the bible and choose others to prosecute their prejudices.

Yep - and about 90% of those contradictions seem to disappear once you research the history / original language.

The ones that don't, are generally the situations where things are worded differently in one account than another, or from transcription error [which transcription error is roughly 3%, mostly numbers].

But then again, if you think the Bible was writen in English originally, I guess these points are moot.

 

[crumbs2000]

Galatians 3:28 KJV: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I am tolerant of all racial groups. The Bible backs that tolerance up in the above quote. You are trying to turn a sexual orientation issue into a racial issue. It's very transparent.

Crumbs and Hunter, thanks for answering the question about your view on the Bible. If you don't see it as the inerrant Word of God, it's only human of you to invent your own brand of Christianity, according to your world view. I understand where you are coming from, so debate on this matter is moot at this time. Perhaps in time you will change your mind.

HunterRose has a valid point. Being persecuted for your sexual orientation is the same as persecution because you happen to be differnt, whether in colour or having different views. That's a valid analogy.


How can the bible be inerrant when it contains so many historical innacuries in it and a ton of brutal barbaric rituals.

We are told that the Bible has no scientific errors and is utterly perfect/protected, yet it says the bat is a bird (Leviticus 11:13 & 19), hares chew the cud (Leviticus 11:5-6), and some fowl (Leviticus 11:20-21) and insects (Leviticus 11:22-23) have four legs.

Heaven is supposed to be a perfect place. It is of course, the place you strive for and name “salvation”. Yet, it experienced a war (Revelation 12:7). How can there be a war in a perfect place and if it happened before why couldn’t it happen again? Why would I want to go to a place in which war can occur? That’s exactly what I’m trying to escape, aren’t you?

We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) and then the Bible claims that it is repentance that shall save us (2 Peter 3:9) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-1 8 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life. So which way is it and how do you know your belief is the correct one?

According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32. One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be trusted. The total is 36.

Surely you don’t believe Ecclesiastes 1:9 RSV (“What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun”)? How many cities had an atomic bomb dropped on them prior to 1945, and how many people walked on the moon before 1969?

If the Bible is our moral guide, then how can it make pornographic statements such as: “...they may eat their own dung and drink their own **** with you” (2 Kings 18:27)? Also consult Numbers 31 where a whole tribe of people, including the elderly and children are slaughtered. The only survivors were the virginal women, who were later raped by the “just and perfect” Moses and his men. Is that what you want your children reading on Sunday?

 

[intricatic]

HunterRose has a valid point. Being persecuted for your sexual orientation is the same as persecution because you happen to be differnt, whether in colour or having different views. That's a valid analogy.


How can the bible be inerrant when it contains so many historical innacuries in it and a ton of brutal barbaric rituals.

We are told that the Bible has no scientific errors and is utterly perfect/protected, yet it says the bat is a bird (Leviticus 11:13 & 19), hares chew the cud (Leviticus 11:5-6), and some fowl (Leviticus 11:20-21) and insects (Leviticus 11:22-23) have four legs.

Heaven is supposed to be a perfect place. It is of course, the place you strive for and name “salvation”. Yet, it experienced a war (Revelation 12:7). How can there be a war in a perfect place and if it happened before why couldn’t it happen again? Why would I want to go to a place in which war can occur? That’s exactly what I’m trying to escape, aren’t you?

We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) and then the Bible claims that it is repentance that shall save us (2 Peter 3:9) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-1 8 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life. So which way is it and how do you know your belief is the correct one?

According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32. One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be trusted. The total is 36.

Surely you don’t believe Ecclesiastes 1:9 RSV (“What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun”)? How many cities had an atomic bomb dropped on them prior to 1945, and how many people walked on the moon before 1969?

If the Bible is our moral guide, then how can it make pornographic statements such as: “...they may eat their own dung and drink their own **** with you” (2 Kings 18:27)? Also consult Numbers 31 where a whole tribe of people, including the elderly and children are slaughtered. The only survivors were the virginal women, who were later raped by the “just and perfect” Moses and his men. Is that what you want your children reading on Sunday?

You know, it's utterly useless to try to discuss this with you because you refuse to look at these things rationally. You're looking at them at surface value, and obviously such a piece of work as the Bible needs much deeper exploration to come to terms with the answers. Not to mention that you refuse to listen when provided with the explanations.

 

[Proselyte]

Crumbs, perhaps some Bible scholars or your Pastor can explain those passages to you. Someone who has years of experience defending them. I for one am not that person.
It's good you ask questions. It helps us understand the Bible better when someone provides the answers to them.
Here is a question for you, do you accept Jesus as your savior and do you consider him the only way leading to God and Heaven?

 

[crumbs2000]

You know, it's utterly useless to try to discuss this with you because you refuse to look at these things rationally. You're looking at them at surface value, and obviously such a piece of work as the Bible needs much deeper exploration to come to terms with the answers. Not to mention that you refuse to listen when provided with the explanations.

Yes intricatic, you provide explanations but they are just your interpretations. Whish is the authority. You say face value? Well, please explain away. I'm waiting and listening. They are the words. Literalists love taking the word and using it at their discretion.

How much deeper do you need to look at the examples I quoted previously.

I am not trying to convince anyone on how to take their bible. I don't see it as the inerrant word of God due to many of the things discussed in this thread.

Proselytes claim that HunterRose and I have created our own brand of christianity is a claim I can make of many christians also based on their interpretations. All scripture that Proselyte has used to support his claims have been countered with scripture.

One can deduce from this that myriad of ambiguous/contradictory writings in the bible.

Just a rhetorical question. Can anyone tell me how the bible came about? Who wrote it and who out it together?

 

[crumbs2000]

Crumbs, perhaps some Bible scholars or your Pastor can explain those passages to you. Someone who has years of experience defending them. I for one am not that person.
It's good you ask questions. It helps us understand the Bible better when someone provides the answers to them.
Here is a question for you, do you accept Jesus as your savior and do you consider him the only way leading to God and Heaven?

I am saved by Jesus NOT the Bible.

 

[Proselyte]

I am saved by Jesus NOT the Bible.

Great! That's a start.

Jesus quoted the scriptures all throughout the NT. He was a Rabbi and obviously thought very highly of the Bible. What is your view on that?

 

[intricatic]

Yes intricatic, you provide explanations but they are just your interpretations. Whish is the authority. You say face value? Well, please explain away. I'm waiting and listening. They are the words. Literalists love taking the word and using it at their discretion.

How much deeper do you need to look at the examples I quoted previously.

I am not trying to convince anyone on how to take their bible. I don't see it as the inerrant word of God due to many of the things discussed in this thread.

Proselytes claim that HunterRose and I have created our own brand of christianity is a claim I can make of many christians also based on their interpretations. All scripture that Proselyte has used to support his claims have been countered with scripture.

One can deduce from this that myriad of ambiguous/contradictory writings in the bible.

Just a rhetorical question. Can anyone tell me how the bible came about? Who wrote it and who out it together?

Interpretations?

Yeah, your arguments are completely blind. Do your own research. Everything I told you was not only pulled from extensive research into the linguistics of the original transcriptions, but also from extensive research into the culture at the time. But take that to be whatever you want, you can figure it out on your own.

 

[intricatic]

The Bible was writen to describe events that had happened in the past. If you don't want to see it as anything but a bunch of semantics on some parchment, that's your prerogative.

 

[GenemZ]

And many Christians would disagree with you. They would maintain, that the Bible is not against stable, loving homosexual relationships. Whether or not you agree with them does not alter the fact that many Christians would not consider homosexuality wrong. And I am talking about stable relationships. Heterosexual or homosexual "one night stands" and seeing sexual intercourse as something everyone does, for fun, money or whatever, are wrong.

I know of a man who has a stable, loving incestuous relationship with his daughter. Can I have you email him? I think he would like you very much.

And, I know of another man who has a stable, loving relationship with his horse. Can I have you email him? I think he would like you very much.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Proselyte]

[/b]

I know of a man who has a stable, loving incestuous relationship with his daughter. Can I have you email him? I think he would like you very much.

And, I know of another man who has a stable, loving relationship with his horse. Can I have you email him? I think he would like you very much.

In Christ, GeneZ

Hehe good argument GeneZ. Where do we draw the line? At the Bible of course.

 

[intricatic]

Surely you don’t believe Ecclesiastes 1:9 RSV (“What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun”)? How many cities had an atomic bomb dropped on them prior to 1945, and how many people walked on the moon before 1969?

Is this satire?

I mean, seriously. Do you have no idea what "literalist" means?

Can you read poetry literally? Seriously, this has got to be the most ridiculous question in the entire list, and that's not saying much.

Do you think someone might believe the author was also literally chasing after the wind? Literalism, when speaking hermeneutically, implies that the message presented has pertinence to anyone reading the message, and that's absolutely true. It also implies inerrancy; that the words presented are absolutely true; how are they true, though? They're true because it's the message intended to be delivered by them.

 

[intricatic]

Let's take this even further, shall we?

Psalms 1
1 Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither.
Whatever he does prospers.

Does this mean that to be blessed I need to grow roots and leaves and plant myself by some water? :o

God should really have considered this more carefully before creating us like this! I don't know how to grow fruit! Also, does this mean I can't sleep anymore because I have to read the Law constantly?

 

[GenemZ]

The Bible says clearly:

Leviticus 18:22 "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Christians who follow the Bible yet continue in willful homosexual relationships are living in sin.

We all sin. But to continue in any sort of sin we know is wrong puts the Christian in peril. Jesus did not die on the cross for our salvation so we could continue to live in sin that he paid the price for. We are saved by grace but it doesn't give us license to willfully sin and cause our Christian brothers and sisters to stumble.

There is a good reason why homosexuality is becoming accepted in societies that once scoffed at the idea.....

The thrust is for making straight the path for the Antichrist. For when he arrives on the scene cultures will have degenerated and been so prepared, that he will be welcomed by the multitudes with open arms.

Daniel 11:37 nasb
"He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all."
​

The pro gay movement is to the Antichrist, what John the Baptist was to Christ.

Matthew 3:3 (New International Version)
"This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.' "

​

Little do they know.... the pro gay movement is making way for the free acceptance of the Antichrist. Before he can be openly known to the public, non acceptance of homosexuality must be seen as bigoted and closeminded.

Seems to be working. For, Christians that walk in the Spirit are now a minority. Those who are Christian and grieve the Spirit, seem to be in the majority. They are the enemies of the Cross. These types are nothing new.

Philippians 3:17-19
"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their emotions, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things."

​

There will always be Christians who choose to be ruled (and to rule) by their emotions. How they feel on a matter over rides the Word of God when they feel they are being more reasonable than what they see in Scripture.


And, there is a reason God sees homosexuality as an abomination. Its a put down of fallen angels' arrogant pride. Many a homosexual has been influenced by powers that God desires to have them overcome in grace and truth. Only a few are willing.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Let's take this even further, shall we?

Psalms 1
1 Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither.
Whatever he does prospers.

Does this mean that to be blessed I need to grow roots and leaves and plant myself by some water? :o

God should really have considered this more carefully before creating us like this! I don't know how to grow fruit! Also, does this mean I can't sleep anymore because I have to read the Law constantly?

I think the one who needs to be more careful is someone like yourself. For? If you read this part carefully?

He is like a tree planted

​

You would have seen the "like." Just as in.... he was "like a braying donkey." Does that mean he is a literal donkey?

Be more careful! And you won't come up with such a silly nonsubstantiated illustrations next time.

Just trying to be helpful..... Like a helper.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[crumbs2000]

Great! That's a start.

Jesus quoted the scriptures all throughout the NT. He was a Rabbi and obviously thought very highly of the Bible. What is your view on that?

What bible?

There was no bible at that time.

 

[Proselyte]

There is a good reason why homosexuality is becoming accepted in societies that once scoffed at the idea.....

The thrust is for making straight the path for the Antichrist. For when he arrives on the scene cultures will have degenerated and been so prepared, that he will be welcomed by the multitudes with open arms.

Daniel 11:37 nasb
"He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all."

​

The pro gay movement is to the Antichrist, what John the Baptist was to Christ.

Matthew 3:3 (New International Version)
"This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.' "


​

Little do they know.... the pro gay movement is making way for the free acceptance of the Antichrist. Before he can be openly known to the public, non acceptance of homosexuality must be seen as bigoted and closeminded.

Seems to be working. For, Christians that walk in the Spirit are now a minority. Those who are Christian and grieve the Spirit, seem to be in the majority. They are the enemies of the Cross. These types are nothing new.

Philippians 3:17-19
"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their emotions, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things."


​

There will always be Christians who choose to be ruled (and to rule) by their emotions. How they feel on a matter over rides the Word of God when they feel they are being more reasonable than what they see in Scripture.


And, there is a reason God sees homosexuality as an abomination. Its a put down of fallen angels' arrogant pride. Many a homosexual has been influenced by powers that God desires to have them overcome in grace and truth. Only a few are willing.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

Wow! That was awesome. Thanks for teaching me that.