Debate #1: Is Evolution science or not?

[DJ_Ghost]

The Problems Of Evolution
laws of probability would still show the need for a Creator.

No actually they would not, I am always embarrassed when fellow Christians repeat these falsehoods.

As a result, many scientists who believe in evolution believe also that the universe in all of its immensity and complexity did not "just happen." Many feel compelled to acknowledge the possibility or even likelihood of an intelligent designer who provided the ingredients for life and set in motion the laws by which it developed.

Some do and some don’t.

Scientific method is limited to a process defined by that which is measurable and repeatable.

No it is not. the scientific method is limited to those things which are falsifiable but we do not have to observe a thing directly as long as we can construct predictions from a theory and then test those. Yours is a basic misunderstanding of the difference between those two statements.

By definition, it cannot speak to issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality.

Nor does it attempt to.

It can be used to argue for God or against Him.

No it can not. The existence or none existence of God is a metaphysical question and therefore Science can not be used to argue for or against it at all, period. Science does not deal in metaphysics it is that simple.

Ghost

 

[thirsty]

Then hear it from a fellow Christian.
Jesus also taught humility.

Then hear this. Man and the earth did not evolve.
Since you think it did can you me scripture where it says it did.

 

[michabo]

Then hear this. Man and the earth did not evolve.
Since you think it did can you me scripture where it says it did.

Shouldn't we turn to God's creation itself (the earth) and listen to what it says?

 

[L'Anatra]

Then hear this. Man and the earth did not evolve.
Since you think it did can you me scripture where it says it did.

Hey, point me to the scripture where it says certain heavier-than-air machines can fly. Point me to the scripture where it says viruses exist at all. Point me to the scripture that discusses atomic theory (you know, the theory that says matter is made up of atoms, which we've never actually seen). Point me to the scripture that says the earth is a sphere orbiting a rather ordinary yellow dwarf star at the edge of a galaxy so vast you can't possibly fathom it.

Oh, wait, scripture doesn't mention those things, does it? I guess all the airplanes currently in the sky should start dropping like flies right about now. Maybe we should go back to the dark ages and lose all those medical innovations.

Maybe we should just forgo learning anything about the physical universe around us at all... you know, that little thing we Christians like to call God's creation?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Then hear this. Man and the earth did not evolve.

Perhaps not, but all the physical evidence strongly indicates that they did.

Below is but the briefest summary from memory of what I've dug up, I can go on for pages with stuff I've tracked down in part from curiousity, in part answering Young Earth Creationist complaints, and in part because I was unsatisfied and needed to better understand what was going on.

If believing in a literal reading of Genesis is important to your faith, I will not gainsay you. God works in mysterious ways and I will not pretend to know his mind but I do know what the physical evidence indicates overwhelmingly. Stick with faith, don't try to understand or to twist the evidence, just simply state that you believe in a literal reading and that you aren't worried about the physical evidence.

Physics, Astrophysics, genetics, biology, geology, dendrochronology, the physical evidence collected and examined and debated over all points to an Earth that is much older than 6,000 or 10,000 years and at continual dieing off and appearance of species, more that those species descend with change from ancestors.

Tree rings, lake varves, ice layers, all being created as we speak, point to an earth that is substantially older than 10,000 years.

Astronomical observation indicates that the physical constants, including those that govern radioactive decay, haven't changed in tens of thousands (spectra from stars in our galaxy) or in 100s of thousands (radioactive elements in supernova remnants) or even billions (quasar spectra) of years.

There are no bones of modern mammals with dinosaur bones, there are no whale bones in the same strata as those of sea going reptiles from the time of the dinosaurs, there are only a very limited number of mammal species in the same strata as dinosaurs.

The fact that the GLO gene is damaged in all primates and in such a way that it fits perfectly into the relationships that had been earlier worked out..

 

[The Lady Kate]

Then hear this. Man and the earth did not evolve.
Since you think it did can you me scripture where it says it did.

It's your own divine proclamation; shouldn't you be responsible for supporting it?

 

[Sphere]

It is a Religion and a very weak one at that

False. A religion explains ultimate reality. Evolution says nothing about why we are here, the origin of life or the universe. Evolution merely explains what occurs in nature.

Evolution is not a religion. Any other misconceptions you need correcting with?

Then hear this. Man and the earth did not evolve.
Since you think it did can you me scripture where it says it did.

Turn off your computer, all your power in your house--and sit in utter darkness reflecting back on everything science has brought you which is not mentioned in the bible.

 

[USincognito]

Face it, If a person wants to believe something as a fact ANYONE can find evidence to pick and choose thru to make it APPEAR to back their Idea's, If you think about it we people here dont have any idea as to what is 100% FACT all we can do is take educated guesses and build ourselves upon that, Diffrence of opinions are healthy.

Don't Creationists realize, in light of their absolutism regarding their religion, how cognatively dissonant their post-modernism is when it comes to science ?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Don't Creationists realize, in light of their absolutism regarding their religion, how cognatively dissonant their post-modernism is when it comes to science ?

I think sect might have been a better choice of words.
Ah, and the answer is, apparently not.

 

[dhiannian]

Perhaps not, but all the physical evidence strongly indicates that it did.

Below is but the briefest summary from memory of what I've dug up, I can go on for pages with stuff I've tracked down in part from curiousity, in part answering Young Earth Creationist complaints, and in part because I was unsatisfied and needed to better understand what was going on.

If believing in a literal reading of Genesis is important to your faith, I will not gainsay you. God works in mysterious ways and I will not pretend to know his mind but I do know what the physical evidence indicates overwhelmingly. Stick with faith, don't try to understand or to twist the evidence, just simply state that you believe in a literal reading and that you aren't worried about the physical evidence.

Physics, Astrophysics, genetics, biology, geology, dendrochronology, the physical evidence collected and examined and debated over all points to an Earth that is much older than 6,000 or 10,000 years and at continual dieing off and appearance of species, more that those species descend with change from ancestors.

Tree rings, lake varves, ice layers, all being created as we speak, point to an earth that is substantially older than 10,000 years.

Astronomical observation indicates that the physical constants, including those that govern radioactive decay, haven't changed in tens of thousands (spectra from stars in our galaxy) or in 100s of thousands (radioactive elements in supernova remnants) or even billions (quasar spectra) of years.

There are no bones of modern mammals with dinosaur bones, there are no whale bones in the same strata as those of sea going reptiles from the time of the dinosaurs, there are only a very limited number of mammal species in the same strata as dinosaurs.

The fact that the GLO gene is damaged in all primates and in such a way that it fits perfectly into the relationships that had been earlier worked out..

I don't get it are you saying you do or do not believe the bible?

 

[MQTA]

False. A religion explains ultimate reality. Evolution says nothing about why we are here, the origin of life or the universe. Evolution merely explains what occurs in nature.

Evolution is not a religion. Any other misconceptions you need correcting with?

Isn't Evolution just a process we observe comparing points in time?

Our school system has evolved from the little red school house to the full blown Board of Education, Colleges and Universities. Each change in rules is part of evolution.

All through our life we evolve. It's just a descriptive word of a process of change.

When it comes to life's existance, we observe these changes. There's nothing to make up, we're describing what we SEE. The process is already there, we're just trying to describe and understand it better.

It's not a question of whether it's there or not, it's the details any of us care to understand or ignore.

 

[USincognito]

I think sect might have been a better choice of words.
Ah, and the answer is, apparently not.

That would be a better word. I was using "their" in the posessive sense, and I wound up not being as precise as I wanted to be.

 

[h2whoa]

W H A T E V E R ! ! ! !

Wow, that sure is some insightful post. I mean really, you touch upon some core issues here. Namely stonewalling and rhetoric. However, still doesn't really address the point though does it? You know, concise an answer as it may be, I still don't feel you've gone quite far enough in addressing my concerns that evolution and science is not ever meant to be a challenge on theism.

I can see a glittering career in politics for you, my friend.

h2

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

I don't get it are you saying you do or do not believe the bible?

I believe the Bible describes our relationship with God,
I believe the Bible tells us how to achieve salvation,
I believe the Bible tells us how to live a Godly life.

I do not believe the Bible is a science textbook.
I do not think that telling a jealous husband who listens too much to gossip that he is acting like Othello means that I believe Othello was a real person.
I personally do not believe that God would have put/allowed such an overwhelming amount of physical evidence that contradicts a literal reading of Genesis chapters 1-11 if a literal reading of those chapters was important for salvation.
My only serious disputes with those who do read those chapters literally is when they
1) accuse those who don't read those chapters literally of not being real Christians and/or
2)claim the physical evidence agrees with them.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I don't get it are you saying you do or do not believe the bible?

Can't you be just a little subtle in your evasions?

 

[thirsty]

False. A religion explains ultimate reality. Evolution says nothing about why we are here, the origin of life or the universe. Evolution merely explains what occurs in nature.

Evolution is not a religion. Any other misconceptions you need correcting with?



Turn off your computer, all your power in your house--and sit in utter darkness reflecting back on everything science has brought you which is not mentioned in the bible.

All that man has learned through science has been revealed to him by God.

 

[corvus_corax]

All that man has learned through science has been revealed to him by God.

Could you clarify or expand on that?
Because as stated, its obviously wrong (or easily misunderstood)
God did not build galileo's telescope, God did not say "Here's the moons of Jupiter", God didnt......oh, Im sure you get my point.

 

[Nathan Poe]

All that man has learned through science has been revealed to him by God.

Well then can God please tell me why Windows XP won't recognize my wireless network?

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

All that man has learned through science has been revealed to him by God.

Ultimately, everything comes from God, but if I sit around on my duff contemplating the fuzz in my belly button I don't expect God to provide me with food and drink. The number of deaths in the Pacific due to tsunamis, the number of deaths in the U.S. due to tornados and Hurricanes have all been greatly reduced because humans applied the scientific method to exploring, understanding and monitoring the world around us.

 

[Battie]

Well then can God please tell me why Windows XP won't recognize my wireless network?

It is being blocked to save you from the evils of the Internet, most notably spyware, which, when allowed to enter in, will corrupt your heart (hard disk?).

(Do you have WEP encryption problems, Wireless B router/card matched with Wireless B or G router/card, the right channel selected, latest firmware for the router, latest drivers for the card, and so on?)