Dealing with Cessationists

[Collum Cille of Iona]

That's not the definition of "hearsay."

If someone says "I saw..." that is not "hearsay," that is direct eyewitness testimony, acceptable in any court of law...including the Mosaic Covenant and including the Messianic Covenant.

“In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” -- 2 Corinthians 13

Right. The two or more witnesses. I agree that would be the evidence. But in this thread there was only one witness:

On the strength of the testimonial evidence for modern miracles | Christian Forums

A prosperty gospel man called Berny Hinn said Jesus would appear on the stage but only he could see him. Do you believe our Lord appeared on the stage? Do you believe only one person could see him? Do you believe this is evidence?

Many of the modern miracles do not have any witnesses that can be questioned or examined by us, only heresay and rumour. It is more like advertising by celebrity leaders with no watchdog agency and no questions allowed.

When a brother or sister is canonized there is a hearing, there are witnesses, there are questions, there are deliberations. But in the Charismatic there is no process. Only claims.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I believe many of the modern charismatics believe they have a direct line to God and receive new revelations directly, the bible is yesterday's manna, old hat, good enough for the rest of us who are not spiritual enough. Although if you send $39.95 to Sid Roth you can acquire some of this secret knowledge. At least until next week when a new revelation comes out.

He's going from the sublime to the ridiculous!

The Scripture says that the secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him. This is often misquoted by the extreme Charismatics as God sharing secrets in the form of new revelation. If we read all the Scripture we see that the secret of the Lord that was hidden through the ages, even from the angels, was redemption through the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Paul quotes, "Eye has not seen nor hear heard what the Lord has in store for those who love Him", but then goes on to say that it has all been revealed through the Gospel of Christ. It is the Gospel of Christ that the angels desired to look into and who are amazed at the revelation of total redemption through faith in Christ's finished work on the Cross.

If people are blind to the glorious Gospel of Christ it is because the Holy Spirit has not revealed it to them and they remain reprobate. Paul spent a whole day with the Jewish group in Rome and shared the whole Gospel with them. Everyone present got the same teaching, yet some believed and others didn't. Those who believed the Gospel discovered the secret - that by grace they are saved through faith and not of themselves, but it is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast. Those who were blind to the secret were those who chose not to believe the Gospel.

Just as a side note, Paul spent two years sharing the Gospel with whoever came to him. As he was guarded by a Centurion all that time, and heard everything that Paul taught over and over during that time, I wonder if he got converted to Christ?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

...

If people are blind to the glorious Gospel of Christ it is because the Holy Spirit has not revealed it to them and they remain reprobate...

Yes... and this is my prayer continually. It should be all our prayer.

Isaiah 35:5
Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Ephesians 1:18
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

All the miracles and healings in the world will not change a single heart unless the eyes are opened. Lord let it happen around the world.

 

[lismore]

Just as a side note, Paul spent two years sharing the Gospel with whoever came to him. As he was guarded by a Centurion all that time, and heard everything that Paul taught over and over during that time, I wonder if he got converted to Christ?

Hopefully Oscarr. There was a 1980s TV series, a dramatisation of the book of Acts called AD (Anno Domini). In that the Centurion was converted. God Bless

 

[lismore]

Really? Is it accepted as a fact by most secular historians? Any sources to back this up?

Hello. I don't know any of the speakers from the links you provided. The internet tends to regurgitate information of dubious authenticity. My advice would be twofold:

Are you a member of an academic library? If not then join one (there may be a small annual fee). Get into History books of known provenance. Use sources of varied ages, balance the new with the old.

Secondly start with the scriptures and look into History for corroboration. For example here's a place to start:

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord.” – Acts 2:20

This is recorded in secular History as having happened at the death and resurrection of Jesus. The sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood and EVERY person on planet earth saw it.

The birth, death and resurrection of Jesus is the foundation for everything in society. If you buy a newspaper today the date will be the 9th of December 2021. Two thousand and twenty years since the birth of Christ. Every newspaper ever printed is a witness to the truth.

God Bless

 

[perpendicular_bisector]

This is recorded in secular History as having happened at the death and resurrection of Jesus. The sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood and EVERY person on planet earth saw it.

PHLEGON wrote about it

 

[lismore]

PHLEGON wrote about it

Yes. Amongst others.

12 Apostles were intimately acquainted with the risen Lord, 500 witnesses saw the risen Lord and everyone on planet earth was aware of the events associated with the death and resurrection of the Lord- everyone knew that something unprecedented had happened when the sun turned dark and the moon turned to blood. Even the Chinese and Amazonian Indians saw these things. God Bless

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

They hinge on a word in 1 Corinthians, "Teleios", rendering that, "when the perfect thing is come" instead of, "when Christ the person comes." So one can tell them that this word must fit into Paul's writings' eschatological framework in context. The perfect thing to come for them in this case, is the Bible, but Paul was saying it is Christ Jesus' second coming, and referring to the glory of God in the face of Christ, which is a thing according to Paul in 2 Corinthians 4:6. Not all the world can see Him at once, olive skin, marks, but Jesus said in the Gospel that the whole world will see Him, as lightening lights east and west all at once. Everyone will be on their knees. All sin and evil stops, and no one prophesies, prays in a tongue of angels or looks into the Bible to check. They will all see the glory as a thing from Him.

 

[hislegacy]

How do you deal with Cessationists?

How do you approach Christians who disregard all modern miracle accounts as hearsay unless hard indisputable evidence is provided, in the form of peer-reviewed publications in medical journals, undeniable footage of a miracle, etc.?

Do you just share your testimony and hope for the best?

Do you engage in scriptural debates and go over controversial passages that Cessationists typically cite to make their case?

I just live my best life in front of them - like anyone. If someone asks a question, I do my best to answer. Other than that I seldom get into debates on such issues.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, like i, is counterintuitive.
We won't consider either until we are developed to a certain point.

Then again we, as a group I am part of, will pray for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit right after praying for Salvation. It is an incredible empowering time.

 

[Guojing]

How do you deal with Cessationists?

How do you approach Christians who disregard all modern miracle accounts as hearsay unless hard indisputable evidence is provided, in the form of peer-reviewed publications in medical journals, undeniable footage of a miracle, etc.?

Do you just share your testimony and hope for the best?

Do you engage in scriptural debates and go over controversial passages that Cessationists typically cite to make their case?

Very few Cessationists believe that God does not heal at all today.

What they frown upon are doctrines that say

1. God always wants you healed
2. You can demand healing by constantly declaring "by his stripes I am healed"
3. If you are not healed physically, ask yourself, do you really trust God to heal you? Are you tithing regularly to the church because if you are not, then you are not trusting God in the least use of your faith, how can you be trusting God to heal you? (Luke 16:10-11 Parable of the shrewd manager)
4. etc etc

 

[jiminpa]

Very few Cessationists believe that God does not heal at all today.

What they frown upon are doctrines that say

1. God always wants you healed
2. You can demand healing by constantly declaring "by his stripes I am healed"
3. If you are not healed physically, ask yourself, do you really trust God to heal you? Are you tithing regularly to the church because if you are not, then you are not trusting God in the least use of your faith, how can you be trusting God to heal you? (Luke 16:10-11 Parable of the shrewd manager)
4. etc etc

By discouraging trust in God's word they may say that they don't believe God doesn't heal today, but they do everything in their power to hinder His working.

1. The same as saying, "God doesn't always want you saved." They all know the scriptures that they denounce, so I'm not going to waste my time posting them.

2. False accusation. It's not demanding, it's reminding our own selves that God is willing.

3. Exaggerated accusation. Some teach that but not most Bible believers, (I consider cessationists to not really believe the Bible).

4. Yes, etc., etc.. Cessationists refuse to believe no matter how much Biblical and experiential evidence is presented. They just don't want to believe the bible, but want to claim to believe the Bible.

 

[Guojing]

By discouraging trust in God's word they may say that they don't believe God doesn't heal today, but they do everything in their power to hinder His working.

1. The same as saying, "God doesn't always want you saved." They all know the scriptures that they denounce, so I'm not going to waste my time posting them.

2. False accusation. It's not demanding, it's reminding our own selves that God is willing.

3. Exaggerated accusation. Some teach that but not most Bible believers, (I consider cessationists to not really believe the Bible).

4. Yes, etc., etc.. Cessationists refuse to believe no matter how much Biblical and experiential evidence is presented. They just don't want to believe the bible, but want to claim to believe the Bible.

I think whenever one gets sick in the Body of Christ, the correct way to pray comes from 2 lessons from the Apostle Paul for us.

First, Philippians 4:6-7
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Second, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
16 Rejoice evermore.

17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Do you see a significant difference in attitude when you follow your apostle Paul in praying those types of prayers, compared to using "I declare by your stripes I am healed"?

 

[ARBITER01]

If people are blind to the glorious Gospel of Christ it is because the Holy Spirit has not revealed it to them and they remain reprobate. Paul spent a whole day with the Jewish group in Rome and shared the whole Gospel with them. Everyone present got the same teaching, yet some believed and others didn't. Those who believed the Gospel discovered the secret - that by grace they are saved through faith and not of themselves, but it is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast. Those who were blind to the secret were those who chose not to believe the Gospel.

True, such is our walk by faith.

The ones that truly need inside reach for something more. This is to be the standard throughout our lives down here also. One experiences the new birth, then one should want to experience the filling of The Spirit, and the step after that of the anointing placed upon their head.

Our walk by faith has many steps beyond just the born again experience.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Do you see a significant difference in attitude when you follow your apostle Paul in praying those types of prayers, compared to using "I declare by your stripes I am healed"?

The Word of God states:

1 Peter 2:24 KJV
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This is simply a declaration of the work of God in redemption. It is a quote from Is 53. It is really not something we can debate, question, qualify, and certainly not deny. Isaiah actually says "by his stripes we are healed."
Isaiah was standing prophetically at the foot of the cross, pointing at the crucified Jesus declaring to those standing around his "by his stripes ye are healed!"
Peter is writing to the believers. He is referring back to the cross and declaring "look, by his stripes ye were healed."
The suffering and death of Jesus for our salvation and healing is not something to be spoken of lightly. Certain not rail against those who seek to hold fast to the profession of their faith.
Yes, I am healed by the stripes of Jesus. We were so I am.
I will not deny His sacrifice and suffering on my behalf.

 

[jiminpa]

I think whenever one gets sick in the Body of Christ, the correct way to pray comes from 2 lessons from the Apostle Paul for us.

First, Philippians 4:6-7
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Second, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
16 Rejoice evermore.

17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Do you see a significant difference in attitude when you follow your apostle Paul in praying those types of prayers, compared to using "I declare by your stripes I am healed"?

Do you ask for what has already been given, refuse to take it, and then ask for peace for lacking what you refused to accept? God's promises are "yes and amen." By teaching that God doesn't honor one promise you cast doubt on all of His promises, including salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you ask for what has already been given, refuse to take it, and then ask for peace for lacking what you refused to accept? God's promises are "yes and amen." By teaching that God doesn't honor one promise you cast doubt on all of His promises, including salvation.

I notice in the Gospels that Jesus didn't have to tell anyone they were healed. The disappearance of the symptoms or the disability made it abundantly obvious. A diabetic can accept healing and declare it until hell freezes over, but if the diabetes remains, there is no evidence that healing has at all occurred. The person is healed when tests reveal that the diabetes has gone from the person's system, and not before. Naming and claiming healing without commensurate results ends up as just chin music.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

1 Peter 2:24 KJV
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I do not walk by sight. The Word says what it says. I never have to worry about lying when I declare the Word of God.

"By His stripes we were healed."
I am not naming or claiming anything. I am quoting His word. I am stating a redemptive fact from the very mouth of God.

Hebrews 10:23 KJV
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

It is my job to believe what He said. I am healed. Period.

Faith is evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 KJV
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

To deny what He said is an evil report. It is impossible to please God without faith:

He did not lie. He did not fail. Let God be true and every man a liar.

It does not please God to deny He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I am less worried about healing than I am about pleasing God. Even if I never receive, I refuse to deny Him and His word. He said it. I desire to please Him, so I hold to what He said.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jesus said to believe you receive when you pray, not after you see the results:

Mark 11:24 RV
24. Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye have received them, and ye shall have them.

You don't need faith if you wait till it happens. That is plain old walking by sight. Anyone can do that. Even the faithless and unbelievers do that.

What if we applied this "I will not believe until I see it happens" theory to salvation? Nobody could believe until they got to heaven, and nobody would be in heaven because you have to believe now... not after it happens.

Thomas refused to believe until he physically touched Jesus and was rightfully called faithless.

John 20:27 KJV
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Of course, there are instances where people believe and do not receive what they desired. That does not make God a liar. There are other issues, including the refusal of many to believe and confess the word as it is written. They contradict God and His word and receive nothing, and which is exactly what they believed for.

James 1:6 KJV
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:7 KJV
7. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

People ask without faith, fail to receive, and proclaim that to be evidence of God's unwillingness to answer their prayer.

One thing is absolutely true and without question. The Word of God is true. It is our job to believe and hold fast to the profession of that Word. That is our job. What He does is His business. One thing we cannot do... deny Him and His Word.

I could probably go on with dozens if not hundreds of scriptures. But this suffices to those willing to hear the Word and receive. If nothing else, have faith for the sole purpose of pleasing God. That is what matters in the end. Receiving or not receiving is minor compared to believing God, holding fast to His Word, and in so doing, pleasing Him!

 

[Guojing]

Do you ask for what has already been given, refuse to take it, and then ask for peace for lacking what you refused to accept? God's promises are "yes and amen." By teaching that God doesn't honor one promise you cast doubt on all of His promises, including salvation.

Oh, that popular 2 Corinthians 1:20 verse that people like to take out of context.

When God promised us present salvation in the Body of Christ, do you also take his promises to Israel and others as yours too?

Let me give you an uncontroversial example. Take God's promises to Abraham in Genesis 15:5

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

How would you respond to someone who said, "Since I believe 2 Corinthians 1:20, I can claim this promise that God gave Abraham as well!"

What about Matthew 19:28 as well? Do you think it makes logical sense for anyone of us to use 2 Corinthians 1:20 to declare "I shall also be sitting on 1 of those 12 thrones and judging the 12 tribes of Israel"?

 

[Guojing]

I notice in the Gospels that Jesus didn't have to tell anyone they were healed. The disappearance of the symptoms or the disability made it abundantly obvious. A diabetic can accept healing and declare it until hell freezes over, but if the diabetes remains, there is no evidence that healing has at all occurred. The person is healed when tests reveal that the diabetes has gone from the person's system, and not before. Naming and claiming healing without commensurate results ends up as just chin music.

Their favorite thinking is "I am already healed in the spirit, and if I keep believing and declaring I am healed, I will eventually see it in the physical realm".

 

[Guojing]

1 Peter 2:24 KJV
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I do not walk by sight. The Word says what it says. I never have to worry about lying when I declare the Word of God.

"By His stripes we were healed."
I am not naming or claiming anything. I am quoting His word. I am stating a redemptive fact from the very mouth of God.

Hebrews 10:23 KJV
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

It is my job to believe what He said. I am healed. Period.

Faith is evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 KJV
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

To deny what He said is an evil report. It is impossible to please God without faith:

He did not lie. He did not fail. Let God be true and every man a liar.

It does not please God to deny He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I am less worried about healing than I am about pleasing God. Even if I never receive, I refuse to deny Him and His word. He said it. I desire to please Him, so I hold to what He said.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jesus said to believe you receive when you pray, not after you see the results:

Mark 11:24 RV
24. Therefore I say unto you, All things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye have received them, and ye shall have them.

You don't need faith if you wait till it happens. That is plain old walking by sight. Anyone can do that. Even the faithless and unbelievers do that.

What if we applied this "I will not believe until I see it happens" theory to salvation? Nobody could believe until they got to heaven, and nobody would be in heaven because you have to believe now... not after it happens.

Thomas refused to believe until he physically touched Jesus and was rightfully called faithless.

John 20:27 KJV
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Of course, there are instances where people believe and do not receive what they desired. That does not make God a liar. There are other issues, including the refusal of many to believe and confess the word as it is written. They contradict God and His word and receive nothing, and which is exactly what they believed for.

James 1:6 KJV
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:7 KJV
7. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

People ask without faith, fail to receive, and proclaim that to be evidence of God's unwillingness to answer their prayer.

One thing is absolutely true and without question. The Word of God is true. It is our job to believe and hold fast to the profession of that Word. That is our job. What He does is His business. One thing we cannot do... deny Him and His Word.

I could probably go on with dozens if not hundreds of scriptures. But this suffices to those willing to hear the Word and receive. If nothing else, have faith for the sole purpose of pleasing God. That is what matters in the end. Receiving or not receiving is minor compared to believing God, holding fast to His Word, and in so doing, pleasing Him!

Have you ever wondered why the Apostle Paul, the one apostle who calls himself the apostle to the gentiles (Romans 11:13), never taught us any of these things in Romans to Philemon?

Instead, we have these 2 events the Holy Spirit recorded Paul as saying

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (1 Tim 5:23)

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
Do you think there is a special reason?