Yes Look at the text Carefully. Peter says that the pre flood world consisted of heaven and earth, and that they were destroyed by water and perished.
We know that the LITERAL substance of neither heaven or earth was destroyed, but it was the evil men that were destroyed, God brought "the flood upon the world of the ungodly" (
2 Peter 2:5). Peter makes a distinction between the heaven and earth of Noah's day which were destroyed, and the heaven and earth that existed then which were to be destroyed by fire. The literal visible fabric of heaven and earth were the same after the flood as they were before the flood.
I think you may have misunderstood the point I was making. The point I'm making is that the entire earth was affected by the flood in Noah's day. The flood waters covered the entire earth. So, I'm saying when Christ returns the fire that comes down at that time will cover the entire earth as well. It will destroy everything in the same sense that the flood waters did. All living people who are not changed to be immortal (1 Cor 15:50-54) will be killed along with all other living things. The annihilation of heaven and earth is not part of the point I'm making, just to be clear. And I'm saying that Peter compared the future global fiery event directly to the global watery event of the past. That is very clear.
What was it that really perished in the flood? Look at verse 6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." It was the world that perished, right? Now what does the word "world" mean? It is the orderly arrangement of society, it wasn't the dirt. Now how do you go from an ungodly society that was destroyed to the destruction of the entire universe? The literal earth was not destroyed. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the physical creation will be destroyed.
You should find out what I actually believe instead of making assumptions. Nowhere have I said that the earth itself, even to the core, will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). What I believe is that the entire earth surface will have fire come down on it just as the flood waters covered the entire earth in Noah's day. So, no mortal will survive that. In Noah's day, an ark was able to keep Noah and his family safe. When Christ returns, there will be nothing like an ark to save anyone. Instead, we will all be "changed" to have immortal bodies at that time (1 Cor 15:50-54).
Notice what God said after the flood of Noah's day in
Genesis 8:21.
Genesis 8:21, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart,
I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;
neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."
Now, I understand you say that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. I understand you believe God's promise here is to just change his method of destroying everything.
Yes, we've already talked about this. Glad you remember so we don't need to go over it again. The context of that verse can be seen in the following verse:
Genesis 9:11 I establish my covenant with you:
Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
It simply makes no sense to interpret Genesis 8:21 without keeping Genesis 9:11 in mind.
But this passage is a message of COMFORT that God is giving to Noah. Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is he promising not to destroy the earth again?
You said this before when we talked about this and I asked where it indicates that it's a message of comfort. I don't recall you ever answering that question back then. So, what is your answer to that question?
I understand you say the former, that God's message of Comfort to Noah is "Be Comforted Noah, for Next time I'm going to burn the whole thing down"
No, I don't see it as a message of comfort at all. That seems to be your assumption. I'm not seeing where it indicates that it was a message of comfort.
However, This interpretation would be completely foreign to Noah, and therefore cannot be the correct interpretation. It has to mean the same thing to us as it meant to Noah.
God said the literal heaven (Psalm 148:4-6) and the literal earth (Psalm 104:5) will never pass away. Psalms 78:69, "...the earth which he hath established for ever." In Genesis 8:21, God said he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word.
The earth abideth for ever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4). And remember Isaiah 9:7, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." If the earth is to be destroyed, then that would be the end of the increase of Christ's government.
You did this same thing the last time we discussed this and I told you then that I don't believe it's talking about heaven and earth being completely annihilated. It's the entire surface of earth that will be burned up and renewed, resulting in the new earth.
Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (
Jeremiah 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (
Ezekiel 32:2-8).
How do you explain away those passages?
Did you miss in my previous post where I emphasized the importance of context? I don't explain away anything! Ever! The context of those passages indicates that they are not meant to be taken literally, but the context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 does. That's the difference.
In reality, it is to call God a LIAR when one claims God will destroy this present earth in our future and replace it whith a materially different "new" one, because we see above that God promised to NEVER destroy the Literal Earth, and He also promised to "NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND, and NEVER AGAIN Smite every living thing.
For goodness sakes, I never said that He was going to annihilate the earth and replace it with an entirely different new one. You wasted your time with all this just because you forgot what I actually believe.
Again, When we let scripture interpret itself, we can clearly see that the "elements" that melted with fervent heat of
2 Peter 3, were the "first principles of the oracles of God" of
Hebrews 5:12.
No, that is not correct. Letting scripture interpret itself involves comparing related scriptures. Hebrews 5:12 has absolutely no relation to 2 Peter 3. What would melting "the first principles of the oracles of God" with fervent heat even mean in a figurative sense?
When you interpret "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interpret "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth", you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.
Peter gave no indication WHATSOEVER that he was being anything but literal in 2 Peter 3:3-13. In verse 7 he said BY THE SAME WORD the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire. By the same word as what? As the earth being destroyed by water. That means he was comparing the heavens and earth being destroyed by fire directly to some other event, which was the flood of Noah's day. Why would he compare something figurative to something literal? That would be nonsense. He was clearly comparing two literal, physical global events to each other in verses 6 and 7.
Obviously, when rightly divided, the honest Bible expositor can only conclude that this stoicheia that Peter speaks of as "MELTING" in
2 Peter 3,
is not about atoms, the periodic table or destruction of the universe, rather this is the
elements of religious training, or the ceremonial precepts common to the worship of Jews under the Mosaic Covenant, which indeed DID burn with fervant heat along with the temple in 70AD.
Why did you compare that to Hebrews 5:12 earlier? Hebrews 5:12 has nothing to do with the Mosaic Covenant, but rather has to do with the elementary teachings of Christianity.
Regardless, I completely disagree with what you said here. You are not interpreting 2 Peter 3 in context at all. You're making the fact that Peter compared the fiery event that occurs on the day of the Lord to the flood in Noah's day completely pointless. Why would he compare the figurative destruction of the earth to the flood in Noah's day? That would be a laughable comparison.
John 14:9-11
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?
He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that
I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own
authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves
Jesus IS the Stone of Matthew 21:40-45
The coming of Jesus was to be "in the glory of the Father" (
Matthew 16:27) -- i.e., it was to be as Father Yahweh always came to Israel. Yahweh was famous for his
cloud-comings and apocalyptic comings down to earth (see:
Isaiah 19:1-2; 2 Sam 22:10-14; Deut 33:2; Isa 31:3-8; Psalm 97:2-5; Ezek 30:3; Ps 104:3; Nah 1:3; Ex 34:5;
Judges 5:4-7; Jer 4:13; Zeph 1:14-15; Psalm 68:32-35; Isa 31). Therefore Christ came in AD 66-70 as Yahweh did in those passages. Christ came back in that generation (
Matthew 24:33-34), and Christ's glorification had returned him to his former glory He had with Yahweh before the world ever began (
John 17:5) -- so His return in AD70 came in Yahweh's power and glory, exactly as prophesied. Jesus did not fail them.
I couldn't disagree more. There was no coming of Christ in any way, shape or form in 70 AD.
The fact that global destruction will accompany His return is taught in other passages as well, such as this one:
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and
they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
What Jesus said here will result in heaven and earth passing away. And, like Peter, he compared what happened to the world with the flood in Noah's day to what will happen "at the coming of the Son of Man". The flood destroyed literally all unbelievers on the earth in Noah's day. Jesus said "that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". All unbelievers on the earth will be destroyed when He returns as well. That lines up with a literal interpretation of 2 Peter 3:6-7 and 2 Peter 3:10-13.
The following also shows that Jesus will be destroying all unbelievers when He returns:
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10
on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Notice that what is described in verses 7-9 will occur "on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people". Has that day occurred yet? Surely not. It is that day in the future when Jesus returns from heaven and is revealed to all. He will punish (take vengeance on) all those who don't know God and didn't obey the gospel at that time. He is coming "in blazing fire". He will set fire to this evil world and put an end to its evil ways once and for all. Those who are alive will be killed and all unbelievers will be condemned and cast into the lake of fire at that point.
