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There were no chapters or verses in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians when it was written.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
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I gave you a like on this, with the exception of your idea to shuffle Revelation 6 and 7. This idea is not right, as the Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event we can expect, then follows the selection of the 144k from the great multitude if faithful Christians. Who have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal and proved their faith in the Lord to protect and save them.
They are all of God's holy people, as seen later; in the holy Land, by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
I fully agree that the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials are each separate events.
There are some similarities between some of the trumpets and some of the vials.
The Day of the Lord does not begin until the 6th seal. The tribulation begins when the 1st seal is opened which will likely start with a covenant being confirmed. The Church will escape the hour of temptation
The world that does not escape the wars, famines and pestilence will think that everything is great when the tribulation of the those days is over. It is then that they will be cast into the wrath of God. The believers that are on earth at that time......those that have not been hunted down and killed......will know what is going on. The Day of the Lord will not take them unaware.........they are told to look up, their redemption draws nigh. There will be a gathering from the earth (twelve tribes) and from heaven (the church).
The church is in heaven as they went there in the pretrib rapture......before the seals were opened. They are the GOODMAN that will not know when the master will come. After the church is gone............those believers that go through the tribulation will not be unaware when Jesus is coming for the gathering and the start of the wrath of God. These believers are of the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth.
This is Jesus returning with the Bride in tow to defeat the Beast.Matt 24:29-31 is certainly a coming of Jesus when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. It is a gathering from heaven and earth. Jesus has not come for Armageddon and to set up his kingdom, He has come to gather the believers and cast the world into the wrath of God.
As for the fig tree........
Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
God saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. Meaning God saw the fathers of Israel as the 1st fruits of the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvest. The breba crop and the main harvest. God had intended for Israel to be the first harvest, but they served other Gods. Instead, the Gentiles will be the 1st harvest.....the church. It will be like the days of Noah......Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.
But God will not forget about His people. After the church is gone.....pretrib, there will be 12,000 from each tribe that become the first fruits of the second harvest. They are seen in heaven in Rev 14. The twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth go through the tribulaiton and will be very aware of the coming of Jesus and the Day of the Lord. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. The destruction if being cast into the wrath of God.
The nation of Israel........those that flee as instructed when the abomination of desolation is set up........1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away........are the remnant that go through the wrath of God....in protection.
I see the first five Seals as being opened when Jesus Ascended, as per Revelation 5:7 & 6:1Hello Keras..... There are a lot of scholars that do not accept that position, however, Look Rev 7:2-3 where it says not to hurt the earth and the sea. In Rev 6:2, we see the antichrist becoming politically visable. In, Rev 4, we see the Red Horse that takes the peace away from the earth. In otherwords World war and that in itself will hurt the earth and seas. But look at verse 3 in chapter 7, "NOR THE TREES". While the earth and sea depending upon how one looks at it is resilient and hard to be hurt. However the Trees can be hurt very easily. From this command, I think that Chapter 7, as it is only about Israeli tribes, 144,000 and tribulation saints to come (a prophecy in itself).
As far as Rev chapter 6 being the next event, I do not think so and have listed sever prophecies that will happen before the seals are opened. The Seals Begin God's Wrath and the CHurch has been promised not to go through it therefore the Rapture of Jesus' Bride will be prior to Chapter 6. In fact, we see the Bride is already in Heaven in Chapter 4.
Have a good day Sir. Blade
I see the first five Seals as being opened when Jesus Ascended, as per Revelation 5:7 & 6:1
We have had all the wars, famines an plagues, any worse and mankind would have been wiped out long ago. Then the Fifth Seal, is plainly open, as all the martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.
The Sixth Seal remains to happen and from all the prophesies that mention the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, it will be the event that will commence all the end times prophesies. It will be the fulfillment of Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Amos 1, Isaiah 17:1, 2 Peter 3:7 and over 100 other vividly described prophesies
As for who are the 144,000 and the Bride, we totally disagree. They both consist of faithful Christians, from every tribe of Israel, every race, nation and language.
The Church Promised to avoid Tribulation? What about all those martyrs, even still happening today?
No; you have bought a lie, we Christians are told to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12
Items 1 to 5 are all at the same time. The Day of the Lord's wrath.I'll give you a list of them and let you decide which ones are to come at anytime
1. Destruction of Damascus
2. Psalm 83 War
3. Elam (Iran) Event (Jer 49:34-39)
4. will Jordan fall (Jer 49:5-6)
5. Egypt ?? (Isaiah 19:16-18)
6. Rapture (1 Cor 15:51-53), (1 Thes 4: 15-18)
Of course there are many more prophecies that can happen. WHEN is the question. Before or after Gog/MaGog
Items 1 to 5 are all at the same time. The Day of the Lord's wrath.
The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is a non starter, as that idea is never mentioned in scripture. Your 1 Cor 15 quote is about the Great White Throne judgement; after the Millennium.
! Thess 4:17 simply describes a transportation from wherever we are on earth, to where Jesus is, initially in the clouds, then in Jerusalem.
The attack of Gog from Magog does not happen for several years after the DoL. Then all God's people, every faithful Christian, will be dwelling in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-5, trusting if the Lord for their protection. He does not fail them. Joel 2:20
Not quite sure why you conclude that I think only Israel has troubles. After the church is gone pretrib, God turns his attention to His people........and they are scattered across the earth, and the earth has problems. What you are missing is there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. That's why the kings of the earth say to the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the one that sits on the throne. That's why you see the great multitude in Rev 7. Christ has returned to rapture those that are left alive and the harvest is the twelve tribes. There are now no believers that experience the wrath of God. The Gentile church was taken pretrib. The twelve tribe are taken pre wrath and the remnant of the nation of Israel, those that flee, go to a place of protection. None of Gods people experience his wrath.There is NO TROUBLES for only Israel as you assume sir. It is God's Wrath. The 6th Seal brings nothing new per se, save it is God announcing supernaturally that MY WRATH IS UPON YOU, it was already upon them, they just didn't understand it until the 6th Seal confirmed it via celestial happenings.
Not quite sure why you conclude that I think only Israel has troubles. After the church is gone pretrib, God turns his attention to His people........and they are scattered across the earth, and the earth has problems. What you are missing is there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. That's why the kings of the earth say to the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the one that sits on the throne. That's why you see the great multitude in Rev 7. Christ has returned to rapture those that are left alive and the harvest is the twelve tribes. There are now no believers that experience the wrath of God. The Gentile church was taken pretrib. The twelve tribe are taken pre wrath and the remnant of the nation of Israel, those that flee, go to a place of protection. None of Gods people experience his wrath.
I know that's what most people think........but it's wrong. The coming of Matthew 24 is the same coming as the 6th seal as proven by the cosmic signs. How many times is Satan cast from heaven as we see the stars fall in both Matt 24 and Rev 6. That's because it is the same event.This is Jesus returning with the Bride in tow to defeat the Beast.
"His people" are a lot bigger group of people than your asserting:
All Israel
And the "rapture" is after the tribulation:
The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
The will certainly be a rapture after the Tribulation...........but it won't be the church. They will be gone pretrib.
2520 days in the week. 1335 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away means the daily sacrifice was taken away on day 1185.The 1290 happens 30 days before the Middle of the Week or 30 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem and the MANY Nations of the Mediterranean Sea Region. The number 1290 represents the number of days until Jesus' Second Coming. The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem/THE MANY/Israel at the 1260 Event.
And that sir is what throws you timing off, the Vials are the 3rd Woe. SEE Chapter 8 after the first four Trumpets sound, there is a KEY VERSE there that tells us exactly what is about to happen next.No, that's not what I meant. The vials are just a different view of the trumpets. When we look at the end of Rev 14 we see the same gathering that is the great multitude of Rev 7. Then we see those not taken to the clouds cast into the wrath of God. How is it that they were not in wrath already?
Think of all the people that you find out are Jewish. You hear it all the time. They know they are Jewish. But that does not mean they are all of the tribe of Judah....it means they are of the 12 tribes.......Gods chosen people. They are blind to the Messiah. After the church is gone, they will realize that Jesus is the Messiah. The scales will come off their eyes. The coming of Jesus that you see in Matt 24 is the time of their harvest. It is also the time the world will be cast into the wrath of God.
The seals, trumpets and vials are not the same story. However, the trumpets and vials are a different view of the same story.
That is what the Scriptures say brother.I used to think that too.
I used to think the same, but there was too many reasons that it was wrong. I believe in the pre tribulation rapture of the church....summer in nigh....the wheat harvest. I believe the dead in Christ are the barley harvest and I believe that God will remove the scales from the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth......fall fruit harvest. Seed time and harvest.
So what is really confusing me......if you understand that the stars falling from heaven in Matt 24 are Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven how do you not see the same angels and Satan being cast to the earth in Rev 6. How many times does Satan get cast out of heaven?
I know that you can watch any guy on TV and he will tell you that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is the second coming when Armageddon happens and Jesus puts his foot on the Mount of Olives. However, that's just wrong. Put the pieces where God says they go and then figure out why your timeline won't work. Don't shoe horn yourself with a perceived timeline and disregard where God says the pieces go.
If you read what Jesus says in Matt 24 about end times, it will line up perfectly with what John says in Rev 6. From false christs, to wars, to famines, to pestilence, to martyrs, to the signs of His coming, the the gathering of the great multitude. Jesus and John agree. Start your time line with this information. The tribulation is over, and then the wrath of God begins.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
I looked at you links and there was just a ton of info.......some right, some wrong. The church is not Israel.....period. The woman in Rev 12 is not the church......it is Israel.Making a blanket statement without studying to see if these things are so is not being "noble":
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Try studying those links and provide me the scripture that clearly refutes the scriptural thesis for either link and then I will start to take you seriously!
I don't know what PC means so its kinda leaving me blind here. Of you mean the last Parenthetical Citation then it throws me off on the 2 verses, I guess we can cover that later. As per 17, 18 and 19, I will explain later why they are P.C. Chapters.I do not include 17,18, 19 as Parenthetical Citations. As I stated the last PC is only 2 verses. I also believe the Chapter 7 should be in front of chapter 6. Why---the 1st verse of chapter 7.
Please keep in mind what I said. "Revelation is for the most part in Chronological order." If we take out chapters 7, 10-14 and 2 more verses and the rest is Chronological, is that not the definition of "For the MOST PART"
You might also find that Isaiah is a group of Revelation prophecies that are not in order. Revelation gives them order.
It appears your interpretation of Revelation is totality different from my view of this book.
It is OK. we can agree to disagree.
You can be wrong of you choose to be - and you have chosen. I never found a verse where the earth is blue. You imagine things are too bad for people to celebrate. You are mistaken. Worse, you are rearranging Revelation and your theory will be proven wrong.When the two witnesses are killed, the people of the earth celebrate and exchange presents. Revelation 11:10. When the earth is blue. Near the end of the first 1260 days, but still in the first half.
Differently, near the end of the 7 years, on brown earth, the waters turned to blood, and posioned, and all the green grass dead and brown, and the world full of disease and sickness, and the landscape of dead and rotting bodies - the kings of the earth will be gathering their armies, all drawn into the middle east, will be making ready at Armageddon to make war of Jesus.
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