Day of the Lord

[iamlamad]

If we are speaking of prophecies, then there are several that are on the cusp of happening prior to the GOG/MaGOG (Ezk 38-39) war happens. We see this everyday in the middle east.

I'll give you a list of them and let you decide which ones are to come at anytime
1. Destruction of Damascus
2. Psalm 83 War
3. Elam (Iran) Event (Jer 49:34-39)
4. will Jordan fall (Jer 49:5-6)
5. Egypt ?? (Isaiah 19:16-18)
6. Rapture (1 Cor 15:51-53), (1 Thes 4: 15-18)

Of course there are many more prophecies that can happen. WHEN is the question. Before or after Gog/MaGog

One other NOTE: The Rapture of the Bride of Jesus Christ does NOT any prerequisites or prophecies in order for it to Happen. It is totally dependent upon the Number that will fulfill his Church. The number is known only to GOD and Jesus Christ.

Blade

What if the Ezekiel 38/39 war is really Armageddon which will come at the END of the week?

 

[iamlamad]

No, that's not what I meant. The vials are just a different view of the trumpets. When we look at the end of Rev 14 we see the same gathering that is the great multitude of Rev 7. Then we see those not taken to the clouds cast into the wrath of God. How is it that they were not in wrath already?

This is just more nonsense - just what I am expecting any time I read what you write. It seems you equate 1/3 with 3/3 or total. That is on you. The truth is, 1=1 and 3=3 and never the twain shall meet. Some of the trumpet judgments are 1/3 destruction while in the vials it is 3/3 or total destruction. This is not to mention that you ignore almost 7 years of timing difference.
You amaze me.

 

[Choose Wisely]

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TROUBLES [BEGIN], the Sun is darkened, the moon is darkened and the stars fall from Heaven, THEN Jesus will Return. So the Tribulation or TROUBLES come upon Israel, the Jews, the Many nations in the region, and much of the world, the first 4 Seals will kill many, then the SUN, MOON and STARS even happens...........THEN Jesus returns.........but the rest of Revelation also happens, this is a Gospel, Jesus isn't supposed to give us a lay by play of the end times, he does that in the book of Revelation !!

So you are changing IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS to IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TROUBLES [BEGIN]

Where the heck did that come from. I guess if you change the scripture you can make it say anything.

 

[Choose Wisely]

This is just more nonsense - just what I am expecting any time I read what you write. It seems you equate 1/3 with 3/3 or total. That is on you. The truth is, 1=1 and 3=3 and never the twain shall meet. Some of the trumpet judgments are 1/3 destruction while in the vials it is 3/3 or total destruction. This is not to mention that you ignore almost 7 years of timing difference.
You amaze me.

What are you rambling on about now? When you figure out that Revelation is not in chronological order let me know. When you figure out that the seals are not open yet then you might have a clue. Until you understand that, you are just a just a car alarm going off for no reason.

 

[Choose Wisely]

What if the Ezekiel 38/39 war is really Armageddon which will come at the END of the week?

Maybe you should check the Bible.
Rev 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In case you can't comprehend what is going on, Gog Magog occurs after the 1000 years.

 

[Revealing Times]

How did Jesus Ascend when He was the one who was introducing the players of the seals.

Blade

You ever here of the Jesus couldn't be found in all of Heaven guys ? They therefore think while Rev. 5 was happening Jesus thus ASCENDED to Heaven. They think the SEALS were opened 2000 years ago. But when I point out it says he was NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.......In Heaven, ON EARTH or UNDER THE EARTH they poo poo my point, LOL.

Jesus was in Heaven all the time, he was a SLAIN LAMB !! John sees him as a SLAIN LAMB and thus he stops crying because he realizes Jesus is the slain Lamb and thus can open the Seals.

I have went around with them, it's nonsensical stuff really. But they believe it, so I usually just ignore it, I have seen quite a few argue this point over and over, the Seals were opened 2000 years ago, we are waiting on the 6th Seal to be opened according to their thinking, I kid you not.

 

[Douggg]

The first trumpet could be said to be lie those judgements of God through Mose at Egypt. Hail mixed with fire but the rest?????

I think you'll find a pattern in the bowls that equal those of Moses' judgements.

Blade

Here are the pairs that have similarities.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

____________________________________________________

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

___________________________________________________
Revelation 9: 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Daniel 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

 

[Revealing Times]

Not quite sure why you conclude that I think only Israel has troubles. After the church is gone pretrib, God turns his attention to His people........and they are scattered acro;ss the earth, and the earth has problems. What you are missing is there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

There is no coming of Jesus at the 6th Seal brother. People get on wrong paths or forks in the road it it takes them down wrong path after path my friend.The Rapture happens Pre-trib, the Martyrs under the Altar ARE NOT the Multitude in Rev. ch. 7, the Multitude in Rev. 7 were also seen in Rev. 4:1 and in Rev. 5:9, they came out of the Church Age VIA the pre-trib Rapture. Those under the Altar in the 5th Seal are thus Judged at the Judgment Seat in Reb. 20:4 after Jesus Returns. READ IT.....They refused to SERVE THE BEAST !! Israel are protected by God in Petra, he doesn't return at the 6th Seal. Why would he ? The Rapture takes the Church, God Protects Israel Himself for 1260 days, so please explain to my why Jesus would return at the 6th Seal.

That's why the kings of the earth say to the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the one that sits on the throne.

The Wrath of God will kill 1.5 to 2 Billion via the Beast/Anti-Christ, the Sun, Moon and Stars signal that the Wrath of God is upon mankind, thus when it states that men say to the rocks fall on us that is a general statement about the FEAR OF THE WICKED from the Wrath that they understand is UPON THEM.

That's why you see the great multitude in Rev 7. Christ has returned to rapture those that are left alive and the harvest is the twelve tribes.

This is just not factual brother, the 5 Virgins who were left behind had the door SHUT ON THEM, they must endure, nut Israel are protected. SEE Rev. 12:17, when the Dragon can not get at the Woman (Israel) he goes after the REMNANT OF HER SEED .........

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The REMNANT of her (Israel's) SEED (Jesus was her Seed) is thus the Church, who keep God's commandments AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This means those who became Christians AFTER the Rapture, they must endure, they did not have enough light in their lamps, so they missed the call to the Marriage. They are thus going to have to die for Christ, they are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal.

There are now no believers that experience the wrath of God. The Gentile church was taken pretrib. The twelve tribe are taken pre wrath and the remnant of the nation of Israel, those that flee, go to a place of protection. None of Gods people experience his wrath.

The Church is in Heaven, the Jews who repent are protected in Petra, but those that missed the Wedding must lay down their lives for Christ, it's just a fact. The door was shut on them, but they can still make Heaven.

I know that's what most people think........but it's wrong. The coming of Matthew 24 is the same coming as the 6th seal as proven by the cosmic signs. How many times is Satan cast from heaven as we see the stars fall in both Matt 24 and Rev 6. That's because it is the same event.

Look, I don't know who took you down this rabbit hole brother, but ZERO Scriptures support this.

2520 days in the week. 1335 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away means the daily sacrifice was taken away on day 1185.
The day 1335 you are talking about is day 2520 when Jesus returns for the twelve tribes and all that have been killed. It is the gathering of Matt 24. It is the beginning of the wrath of God
The 1290 day spoken of is when the abomination of desolation is set up. It happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away so the day is day 2475. That is when people flee in Jerusalem. From that day add 1260 days till the wrath of God is over.

There is really no need in discussing these, it is obvious no one gets what Daniel 12 means here.

 

[Revealing Times]

So you are changing IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS to IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TROUBLES [BEGIN]

Where the heck did that come from. I guess if you change the scripture you can make it say anything.

Tribulation ARE Troubles...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation or accompining it.

Immediately 2112 y1161 after 3326 the x3588 tribulation 2347 of those 1565 dayes, 2250 shall the x3588 Sunne 2246 be darkned, 4654 z5701 and 2532 the x3588 Moone 4582 shall y1325 z0 not 3756 giue 1325 z5692 her y846 x848 light, 5338 and 2532 the x3588 starres 792 shall fall 4098 z5699 from 575 heauen, 3772 and 2532 the x3588 powers 1411 of the x3588 heauens 3772 shall be shaken. 4531 z5701

Immediately Greek word 2112 EUTHEOS = 1) straightway, immediately, forthwith.
Adverb from G2117; directly, that is, at once or soon:—anon, as soon as, forthwith, immediately, shortly, straightway.

After Greek word 3326 META = 1) with, after, behind.
A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; "amid"
NASB - accompanied(1), accompanied*(2), accompany*(1), after(82), afterward*(3), against(4), amid(1), among(5), away(1), before*(1), behind(1), companions*(5),

Here is why I get a lot of things most don't, I have a way of cutting through the TRANSLATIONS and seeing the intention by logical deductive reasoning. Then when I study it I find out my intuition was correct, the Holy Spirit gives me that understanding, no doubt. If I do have a problem I study the Greek or Hebrew root words. The ABOVE is a prime example of why you have to study.....

So IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened etc. etc.....OR....

So Directly ACCOMPANYING the TROUBLES of those days, shall the Sun be DARKENED, the moon shall not give its LIGHT, and the stars shall FALL......................

You can't be directed by sngle verses. I know what these things mean because I put the WHOLE PUZZLE TOGETHER, I see you trying to place a horses head onto a Pig in the puzzle, I see these things because I look at the big picture brother.

 

[Douggg]

the Multitude in Rev. 7 were also seen in Rev. 4:1 and in Rev. 5:9, they came out of the Church Age VIA the pre-trib Rapture.

The multitude in Revelation 7 come out of the great tribulation. In order to come out of the great tribulation, they first have to have been in it. They are not the raptured saints.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Douggg]

So IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened etc. etc.....OR....

It is talking about at, near, the end of the 7 years - not after the 7 years are over.

 

[BABerean2]

Thank you for posting that video!!! I was looking for a video that agreed with what Father showeed me many years ago as I had proof of a distinct year after the tribulation called the "day of the Lord" where the rapture/resurrection took place:

The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

You may also appreciate the following.

At one time my wife and I attended a church which taught the pretrib doctrine.
When I could not get the doctrine to match up with what was in my Bible, I did some research on the history of the doctrine.
I was shocked by what I found, and was upset that nobody told those sitting in the pews that John Nelson Darby brought the doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

 

[Douggg]

You may also appreciate the following.

At one time my wife and I attended a church which taught the pretrib doctrine.
When I could not get the doctrine to match up with what was in my Bible, I did some research on the history of the doctrine.
I was shocked by what I found, and was upset that nobody told those sitting in the pews that John Nelson Darby brought the doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.

Well, you don't believe in the forthcoming 70th week, so it would be pretty hard to make a pre-70th week rapture to fit.

Which came first - your rejection of the forthcoming 70 week? Or rejection of a pre-70 week rapture?

 

[BABerean2]

Which came first - your rejection of the forthcoming 70 week? Or rejection of a pre-70 week rapture?

Rejection of the pretrib rapture doctrine came first, because it is not found in the Bible.

Then I rejected the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, which is not in the Bible.

Then I read the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.
It reveals the truth about the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

...............................................................
Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


The New Covenant: Bob George

 

[Choose Wisely]

Tribulation ARE Troubles...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation or accompining it.

Immediately 2112 y1161 after 3326 the x3588 tribulation 2347 of those 1565 dayes, 2250 shall the x3588 Sunne 2246 be darkned, 4654 z5701 and 2532 the x3588 Moone 4582 shall y1325 z0 not 3756 giue 1325 z5692 her y846 x848 light, 5338 and 2532 the x3588 starres 792 shall fall 4098 z5699 from 575 heauen, 3772 and 2532 the x3588 powers 1411 of the x3588 heauens 3772 shall be shaken. 4531 z5701

Immediately Greek word 2112 EUTHEOS = 1) straightway, immediately, forthwith.
Adverb from G2117; directly, that is, at once or soon:—anon, as soon as, forthwith, immediately, shortly, straightway.

After Greek word 3326 META = 1) with, after, behind.
A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; "amid"
NASB - accompanied(1), accompanied*(2), accompany*(1), after(82), afterward*(3), against(4), amid(1), among(5), away(1), before*(1), behind(1), companions*(5),

Here is why I get a lot of things most don't, I have a way of cutting through the TRANSLATIONS and seeing the intention by logical deductive reasoning. Then when I study it I find out my intuition was correct, the Holy Spirit gives me that understanding, no doubt. If I do have a problem I study the Greek or Hebrew root words. The ABOVE is a prime example of why you have to study.....

So IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened etc. etc.....OR....

So Directly ACCOMPANYING the TROUBLES of those days, shall the Sun be DARKENED, the moon shall not give its LIGHT, and the stars shall FALL......................

You can't be directed by sngle verses. I know what these things mean because I put the WHOLE PUZZLE TOGETHER, I see you trying to place a horses head onto a Pig in the puzzle, I see these things because I look at the big picture brother.

I'm pretty sure it says immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

If you try using the scripture EXACTLY like it says you will get the correct outcome. Playing around with the words is as you like to say.........sending down the wrong rabbit hole.

 

[DavidPT]

For 3 1/2 days?

Let's think about this for a moment.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

We know from this verse that they are not made war against, nor overcome, nor killed, during the 3.5 years they are giving their testimony. This obviously requires another period of time after the 3.5 years they give their testimony in order to fulfill verse 7. Thus another 3.5 year period follows, this period referring to the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, obviously.

Verse 7 does not say when they are killed, it only says they are killed. When they are killed then come to life again, the 7th trumpet soon follows.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I wouldn't think this is fulfilled during the 42 months the beast is reigning, at least not at the beginning of that reign for sure.

Compare the following----the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever---with this in Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously the beast has made himself out to be the most high god. This is also referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:4. So how can the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, any time during the 42 month reign of the beast, where during that time the beast has control of the kingdoms of the world meant here? Doesn't it then seem logical that the two witnesses are killed at the end of the beast's reign, rather than at the beginning of it? Because if they are not, we then have to place the 7th trumpet during the 42 month reign of the beast, where during that reign the beast has control over the kingdoms of the world at the time, for the entire 42 months given to him to fulfill.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The wrath against the beast and it's followers would be after the 42 month reign of the beast, not during it. The time of the dead, that they should be judged, would be after the 42 month reign of the beast, not during it.

We also have the following once the 7th trumpet has sounded.

and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail(Revelation 11:19).

This wouldn't be during the 42 month reign of the beast either, it would be after, and appears to be connected with the vials of wrath.


As to saying peace and safety. Not only might they be saying that once the 2W have been killed, they also might be saying it during the entire 42 month reign of the beast. From their perspective, since they are worshiping the beast, thus the beast is not making war against them, nor overcoming them, nor killing them, they might feel a sense of peace and safety compared to the ones the beast is making war against. Maybe that makes little to no sense to you, that they could be saying peace and safety during the reign of the beast, yet it makes good sense to me though.

 

[Bladerunner]

I don't know what PC means so its kinda leaving me blind here. Of you mean the last Parenthetical Citation then it throws me off on the 2 verses, I guess we can cover that later. As per 17, 18 and 19, I will explain later why they are P.C. Chapters.

As per chapter 7 being in front of chapter 6, I disagree, but understand your argument because I used to think close to the same thing on chapter 7. Then I finally saw what was going on, it is indeed a part of the Chronological Order.



So you see 10 through 14 the same way, and two verses somewhere else.

Chapter 7 is in order, even though the 144,000 are sealed, they are not 144,000, they are really 1/3 of the Jews, 12 x 12 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL, so it's probably 2 to 3 million Jews. God holds back the TRUMPET PLAGUES, not the SEALS !! Notice, He tells the Angel to HURT NOT, the Trees, Earth nor the Seas, all which are to be hurt in the Trumpet Judgments of Rev. chapter 8. God says WAIT UNTIL I Seal my people (Jews/144,000/ALL Jews who Repent and Flee unto Petra) in the head, or PROTECT THEM in Petra, then release the Trumpet Judgments on the Earth, Seas and Trees.

So the Seals are opened, the Jews Flee 30 days before this when they see the AoD, God protects them along the way no doubt like he did Israel when they left Egypt, remember Rev. 12 ? Satan chases them (via the Anti-Christ) and THE EARTH SWALLOWS UP THE FLOOD !! This means God protects them via the elements, and thus Satan gets mad and goes after THE SEED of Jesus or those who missed the Rapture but then gave their lives unto Christ Jesus afterwards, these will be the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal. So while the Seals (Anti-Christ is the White horse, Red horse, Black horse and Pale Green horse) com to pass, God is protecting Israel as they Flee to Petra with EAGLES WINGS (God Himself is protecting them). The 6th Seal comes, then the 7th Seal, which brings the TRUMPET JUDGMENTS........So Rev. 7 is in perfect order, its BETWEEN the Seals and the TRUMPETS, and we can see what is HELD BACK by God is the Trumpet Judgments, not the Seal Judgments. Remember, they FLEE for 1260 days, but just because we see their flight doesn't mean in Rev. 7, that doesn't mean it has be BEFORE Rev. ch. 6, we can be and are seeing them in REAL TIME, just after the Seals are broken, and just before God starts burning the trees, turning the seas to blood, and coming against the earth with Plagues.

Also, the GREAT MULTITUDE seen in Rev. ch. 7 is the Church, who is by now the Bride in Heaven, having married the Lamb already. They (WE) came out of the Church Age Tribulation period as in a 2000 year Tribulation period which is GREATER than the 70th Week 7 year tribulation period. Thus those seen in heaven came out of the Great Tribulation as in 2000>7.

We agree on chapters 10-14. I made a thread with a Revelation TIMELINE today, that might help a little on these back and forths. As per Rev. 17, that is the Harlot being KILLED off, Rev. 18 is Babylon (Whole World) receiving the plagues of God. Rev. 19 lasts for 7 years, it can't be a part of the Chronological Order by definition.

You Said:"Chapter 7 is in order, even though the 144,000 are sealed, they are not 144,000, they are really 1/3 of the Jews, 12 x 12 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL, so it's probably 2 to 3 million Jews."

As long as you do not read the entire Bible Literally, Historically and Grammatically, we cannot discuss anything. Everything we say will be at odds with each other.

I will tell you the GOD said what He meant and Means what He said. When He says He has 144,000 , I believe He has 144,000 and do not change it to fit my worldview or life style. I do not change it to fit my reckoning of what the Bible says.

If you read it the Literal way, everything falls into place without having to remove or add anything. In Rev. there are allusions and symbols to be sure but everyone of them is explained by the book itself. This is true at other places in the BIBLE especially the OT. The Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament and the New Testament is concealed in the Old Testament. It is simple as that.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is 1 Cor 15:1-4.... Faith alone.

Blade

 

[iamlamad]

So you are changing IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS to IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TROUBLES [BEGIN]

Where the heck did that come from. I guess if you change the scripture you can make it say anything.

Two masters at rearranging scripture to fit a theory.
Choose Wisely is correct here: it is immediately after the END of the tribulation..."
Why on earth would someone rewrite scripture to fit a theory?

Read the scripture, understand the scripture, and form doctrine from what is written, correctly understood. There is no need to rearrange.

 

[iamlamad]

You Said:"Chapter 7 is in order, even though the 144,000 are sealed, they are not 144,000, they are really 1/3 of the Jews, 12 x 12 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL, so it's probably 2 to 3 million Jews."

As long as you do not read the entire Bible Literally, Historically and Grammatically, we cannot discuss anything. Everything we say will be at odds with each other.

I will tell you the GOD said what He meant and Means what He said. When He says He has 144,000 , I believe He has 144,000 and do not change it to fit my worldview or life style. I do not change it to fit my reckoning of what the Bible says.

If you read it the Literal way, everything falls into place without having to remove or add anything. In Rev. there are allusions and symbols to be sure but everyone of them is explained by the book itself. This is true at other places in the BIBLE especially the OT. The Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament and the New Testament is concealed in the Old Testament. It is simple as that.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is 1 Cor 15:1-4.... Faith alone.

Blade

I agree with Blade here: when John wrote 12,000 from each tribe, why try to change it?

 

[Douggg]

Verse 7 does not say when they are killed, it only says they are killed. When they are killed then come to life again, the 7th trumpet soon follows.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I wouldn't think this is fulfilled during the 42 months the beast is reigning, at least not at the beginning of that reign for sure.

David, understanding when the two witnesses are killed, comes from getting Revelation 12 right.

Working backwards, in Revelation 12, Satan has a time, times, half time left. Before then he is in a war in the second heaven, and his kingdom is cast down to earth - Babylon is fallen is fallen.

What triggers the war, and why - that is what leads us back to Revelation 11:5.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That verse could be understood to mean at the very end of the 7 years, after everything is all over. Which many people do read it that way.

Another way to read it, is that the time has come to take the kingdoms from Satan's control, to become under Jesus's Kingdom of God. Which in that understanding, the seventh trumpet triggers Michael and his angels to begin the taking away process from Satan and his angels.

Which that war is preceded by 1260 days in Revelation 12:6.

So the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11, shortly following the 1260 days in Revelation 11, would put the two witnesses' death at the exact mid-point of the seven years.

The peace and safety saying would be during most of the two witnesses's first half 1260 days, around 3 years. Not know for certain, because it is not given when the perceived messiah to the Jews betrays them, and claims to be God - shattering the illusion of them living in the messianic age of peace and safety.