Day 8, Proverbs Chapter 8

[katerinah1947]

Proverbs 8

Everyone read Chapter 8 if it is the 8th day of the month today. Come back and give us your thoughts....Tishri1

Hi,
I couldn't wait. It is The eighth in New Zealand and I hoped you all wouldn't mind posting a few hours early. I live in Oregon, so it really doesn't count, I just couldn't wait in this one. Sorry.

This is one of the most stunning Proverbs. Psalms 2 is stunning also. But here, God starts creation. He makes something first, before everything else and in Proverbs 9:1, what he made is female. It is of the female gender.
The first thing, God ever made is a female, but in spirit only. She has no body. Well neither does, The Father, nor The Holy Spirit, and Neither did Jesus, until He took on a body. Further, I have a vague recollection, that Jesus was given the choice in the New Testament, to pick up His body again after The Resurrection, or to not do it. It was one of the only times, that Jesus was ever asked by The Father to do His Own Will, rather than the Fathers. That is if I recall this correctly.
So here Wisdom is made. She is the first thing God ever made in all of Creation. Unfortunately, until one goes to Proverbs 9:1, it is only suspected that she is a female. After going to Proverbs 9:1, then Proverbs 8, can be read with the knowledge, that Wisdom is female, and so in simple terms, God made a female.
Then she delights in Him. and He delights in her, just like two young kids, playing. The relationship for any woman, is one of love. The relationship of God for her is uncertain, as I do not know what it means for a male to delight in a girl. It could be Father Daughter, or even Brother sister. I just don't know. For, her though it is non possessive love.
God has made, what turns out to be a Gal-Pal. He has made her first at the beginning of all of Creation. She is first. Amazing.
Each time I read this, I just think: "Okay, God likes women. So what, most guys like women. It is like God wanted the job to go better, so He creates a friend, and He makes her as he would like her to be. Then He can go about His Great work, with companionship, who actually is beside Him constantly. "

The pure definition of Fear of God, is listed in 13.

Somewhere, she tests men, meaning all men and women, and does not reward anyone, at first. She rewards only after she, a woman is sure of a person's commitment to honesty.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

That is the way I take, Proverbs 8. And here it is:
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◄ Proverbs 8 ►
New International Version
Wisdom’s Call

1Does not Wisdom call out?

Does not Understanding raise her voice?

2At the highest point along the way,

where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3beside the gate leading into the city,

at the entrance, she cries aloud:


4“To you, O people, I call out;

I raise my voice to all mankind.


5You who are simple, gain prudence;

you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.a


6Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;

I open my lips to speak what is right.

7My mouth speaks what is true,

for my lips detest wickedness.

8All the words of my mouth are just;

none of them is crooked or perverse.


9To the discerning all of them are right;

they are upright to those who have found knowledge.


10Choose my instruction instead of silver,

knowledge rather than choice gold,

11for Wisdom is more precious than rubies,

and nothing you desire can compare with her.

12“I, Wisdom, dwell together with Prudence;

I possess knowledge and discretion.


13To fear the Lord is to hate evil;


I hate pride and arrogance,

evil behavior and perverse speech.


14Counsel and sound judgment are mine;

I have insight, I have power.

15By me kings reign

and rulers issue decrees that are just;

16by me princes govern,

and nobles—all who rule on earth.b


17I love those who love me,

and those who seek me find me.


18With me are riches and honor,

enduring wealth and prosperity.


19My fruit is better than fine gold;

what I yield surpasses choice silver.

20I walk in the way of righteousness,

along the paths of justice,


21bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me

and making their treasuries full.

22“The Lord brought me forth ("made me") as the first of his works,c d

before his deeds of old;


23I was formed ("made") long ages ago,

at the very beginning, when ("before") the world came to be.


24When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,

when there were no springs overflowing with water;

25before the mountains were settled in place,

before the hills, I was given birth,

26before he made the world or its fields

or any of the dust of the earth.

27I was there when he set the heavens in place,

when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28when he established the clouds above

and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29when he gave the sea its boundary

so the waters would not overstep his command,

and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.


30Then I was constantlye at his side.

I was filled with delight day after day,

rejoicing always in his presence,


31rejoicing in his whole world

and delighting in mankind.


(She delighted in God, like a girl delights in a guy. She also tells us what she thinks of us, It is a term of endearment, it is delight. The timing of her remarks is unknown. I do not know if this is after the fall of Adam or before. If it is after, she delights.)


32“Now then, my children, listen to me;

blessed are those who keep my ways.

33Listen to my instruction and be wise;

do not disregard it.

34Blessed are those who listen to me,

watching daily at my doors,

waiting at my doorway.

35For those who find me find life

and receive favor from the Lord.


(Life here to me is being alive with God, after earth, after my body is dead, earth wise. It is to translate life, in most cases Biblically as life with God after death, rather than life without God after Death. Yes, sometimes Biblically, life is only our life on earth.)


36But those who fail to find me harm themselves;

all who hate me love death.”

Footnotes:
a 5 Septuagint; Hebrew foolish, instruct your minds
b 16 Some Hebrew manuscripts and Septuagint; other Hebrew manuscripts all righteous rulers
c 22 Or way; or dominion
d 22 Or The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work; or The Lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work
e 30 Or was the artisan; or was a little child
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
Proverbs 8 to me is a huge Translation of some things God has done. It seems to suggest the feminine gender in a spirit creature. It seems to tell us things about Creation, like what the first thing God ever created? It also suggest the entirely relational aspect of God, suggesting to me His love of family.
You don't see that. To me God decided He wanted a family. So, He split Himself three ways, with each being identical in every way to Himself. Jesus, and The Holy Spirit were then like cloned, but clones really grow from a few cells to many, and that is not how it happened. Rather to me only, God took one third of Himself, all of His Self and begat a son. And to me, The Holy Spirit although being sent, is still in all ways, like Jesus and The Father in every way. So, it is to me, like God and His two sons, but only one is called the only begotten one, the other to me could be called the Sent One.
Enough of that for now. But, as there was only God, and through Genesis 1:28, we have learned this about God, and that is Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but merely change forms, then that looks like it is true for God. God does not make energy, rather He is composed of that and more really, but His primary substance is energy and He is also the manipulator of energy. Thus, He used His Own Substance to beget and to send. Each diminishes The Father by one third, which is an amazing decision, and tells me something about God. His son is no mere light thought.
I think God did that, He begat one son, and He sent another one, but in order to send that one, He used His own Substance to do so. (I am sorry if this sounds like heresy. I don't think it is.)
Then God makes all of us, only we are made, not begotten, but given the chance to be family with HIm. So, really, how is it that one can plausibly say, God wasn't lonely and needed people? How?
There is so much here. There is so much here.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Look Up]

Wisdom in Proverbs 8 (and 9:1ff) is personified as a woman, picking up the same poetic/literary device from ch. 3. She contrasts with the adulteress of ch. 7 (and 5) and has some attributes so resembling Deity (e.g., as source of life) that some have compared her with a (debatable) member of the Triune God though personification would seem a sufficient explanation for similarities. And of course wisdom is described in the book in terms outside this personification, though the illustration of wisdom as a woman in ch. 8ff is both extended (for the book of Proverbs) and striking.

It is the passage the Lord was pleased to use in first granting me the faith that Jesus is the Son of God (in contrast to my former atheism) even if I subsequently came to believe other OT passages are clearer or more probable illustrations of messianic prophecy (e.g., Isa. 53 and Ps. 22). At the time, the sex of Wisdom did not play much into my experience (I am male). Prophetic aspects did--but such is merely my experience of the time rather than interpretive argument. Any delight I have gained in Wisdom's ethical and theological gems and characteristics since has been a motley process.

 

[katerinah1947]

Wisdom in Proverbs 8 (and 9:1ff) is personified as a woman, picking up the same poetic/literary device from ch. 3. She contrasts with the adulteress of ch. 7 (and 5) and has some attributes so resembling Deity (e.g., as source of life) that some have compared her with a (debatable) member of the Triune God though personification would seem a sufficient explanation for similarities. And of course wisdom is described in the book in terms outside this personification, though the illustration of wisdom as a woman in ch. 8ff is both extended (for the book of Proverbs) and striking.

It is the passage the Lord was pleased to use in first granting me the faith that Jesus is the Son of God (in contrast to my former atheism) even if I subsequently came to believe other OT passages are clearer or more probable illustrations of messianic prophecy (e.g., Isa. 53 and Ps. 22). At the time, the sex of Wisdom did not play much into my experience (I am male). Prophetic aspects did--but such is merely my experience of the time rather than interpretive argument. Any delight I have gained in Wisdom's ethical and theological gems and characteristics since has been a motley process.

Hi,

From my own work, if any work can be called my own, that comes from the Bible.

Wisdom, as a created being, and the first thing God every created in all of Creation, delights in men, meaning males and females. She delights in you therefore.

Wisdom imparts knowledge and understanding of God, but she only does that after she has tested you for commitment to honesty. This is a job God has given to her. She is there to test all men. A woman, a female, is to test all men for Honesty. If they have committed to that, only when she is sure does she reward. In the mean time, you get noting, and neither do I.

Once you pass her test she starts to impart her riches on you. The most valuable aspects of that are knowledge of God.

Hang in there, she delights in all men. Men Biblically is males and females to me. It is not merely males.

I would say by the way you responded, you are honest. More and more knowledge will come, but I don't know how much, as very little is needed to please Jesus. Very little.

Urges to know more, by people like you, is merely God telling you to learn more. But, remember it is God at some point, only God who is leading you, and your first and best teacher is actually Jesus, and that is in John 6 or 7, I think.

Yes, if Jesus wants to, he can assign others to you, but it is up to Him. And tell yourself this maybe. That what you are doing is of God, even if it not Paul's work, but something similar,, like being male and raising a family. Or do you not know that as a male, you affect a family by your ways. So, if your ways are searching out God, no one, can keep the other family members from knowing that, even if everyone opposes you. As, all your children will pick it up somehow, in ways you won't even see, as it is the way, God made males, and fathers. They are the heads of their families, even when everyone might try and deny them that.

All their actions against a male, a father, and words, do not in fact work, in the long run.

If however God wants you to know much, then do this: Prove to yourself, the Bible is wrong. Then present your proof to the world. Oh. You will fail. Oh. You will, but what you will learn along the way, is just how to read the Bible, in and among all of those translations out there, and you will learn how God defines words, in the Bible as opposed to how we define those words.

Yes, there are other ways to become knowlegeable, that is just the one that was assigned to me, by God. And, no, I did not know it was an assignment.

An important concept in life on earth, is if you are just, and if your are rightious and if those two words mean the same thing to you, God will reward you more than maybe now, you can presently believe. However, that is off topic.

What is on topic is your humility. I have seen it above. It is high. And the least of us here, will be greater than the greatest of us here on this earth in heaven, and it is in humility and lowliness of ideas and pride on earth, that God means. Thus being least on earth, in those ways, God measures that as your greatness in His eyes.

Also be a fig on a fig tree, in God's way of saying things. I am familiar with fig trees. I cannot be hurt by one, when I go for figs. I my case I love fig Newtons. Well, I can if I stand on a branch and jump on it, or I should say, that I might be, as even when a branch breaks on a fig tree, it is not sudden. Rather even as it is breaking, it will slowly descend me to the ground.

In Matthew 7:15-16, that idea of God's people who know God, can be figured out if you are uncertain. It is in the way they are with all people, not just the ones they are putting on a show for, or deceiving. They are nice always, and in all situations.

For women of God, the concept is grapes. You cannot be hurt by grape vines, when picking them. So, all things from God, that are from females, that you can trust as coming from God, only come from females, who are nice all of the time, to important people, to not impotant people, to the lowest of persons, and to the highest of persons.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Look Up]

Hi Mary,

While I don't follow the drift of all of your metaphors, I appreciate what I understand for its evident truth and encouragement in righteous living and worshipful relationship with the Creator and Sovereign God. And while I hold to a Nicene-Trinitarian view of God, the Imago Dei language regarding the creation of the one Man Adam-and-Eve suggests, I believe, that the union and relationship of the male-and-female is like/reflects something of the unity and relationship within the one Creator God Elohim/YHWH. I am fearful, however, that speculative connections between the creation of Man narrative and lady Wisdom in Proverbs 8--such as to the effect that Wisdom is a female consort to the Creator, perhaps--is fraught with ready potential for divergence from established tradition and Scripture themes, however potentially intriguing. That caveat aside, there is about Wisdom's femininity something that is arguably attractive to those made in the image of God who are seeking conformity to God's Son harkening back to a pre-Fall original in holy character; those who do so will surely find Wisdom was there from the creation onward.

I also appreciate your use of concepts such as humility, knowledge, justice and holiness, and kindness (even authority) as associated with and indeed part-and-parcel with the Wisdom of Proverbs not only because such concepts reflect wisdom in the chapter and book but because they remind me (at least me) of the contrast with modern semantic baggage attached to the term particularly from educational bonds. Wisdom in Proverbs is not merely knowledge of fact nor even professional or pragmatic application of such facts, at least in secular seclusion from the sacred, but is rather steeped first and foremost in relationship with God and in obedience to Him.

What has thus often surprised me is that the book of Proverbs often seems to include so little transparent allusion to Torah demands (or direct quotation), not that such allusion is absent at least in terms of moral consistency. David's psalms will at times include material suggesting he followed covenant injunctions to the king to meditate daily in the law of the Lord (Deut. 17 and cf. e.g., Ps. 103-106); Solomon of course diverges from a number of Mosaic commands to the king (e.g., multiplying horses and wives, the latter hence his slide into idolatry, cf. 1 Kings 11). But Solomon's wisdom was also a special gift of God; his Scripture and Wisdom herself speak with an authority like Moses's. Indeed God spoke, and it was so. To the praise of the glory of His grace.

And lastly note that Wisdom as herald from the town square suggests access is far more than provincial (even if common sense is uncommon): "I raise my voice to all mankind." Israel was not the only light to the nations even if she was unique among them.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi Mary,

While I don't follow the drift of all of your metaphors, I appreciate what I understand for its evident truth and encouragement in righteous living and worshipful relationship with the Creator and Sovereign God. And while I hold to a Nicene-Trinitarian view of God, the Imago Dei language regarding the creation of the one Man Adam-and-Eve suggests, I believe, that the union and relationship of the male-and-female is like/reflects something of the unity and relationship within the one Creator God Elohim/YHWH. I am fearful, however, that speculative connections between the creation of Man narrative and lady Wisdom in Proverbs 8--such as to the effect that Wisdom is a female consort to the Creator, perhaps--is fraught with ready potential for divergence from established tradition and Scripture themes, however potentially intriguing. That caveat aside, there is about Wisdom's femininity something that is arguably attractive to those made in the image of God who are seeking conformity to God's Son harkening back to a pre-Fall original in holy character; those who do so will surely find Wisdom was there from the creation onward.

I also appreciate your use of concepts such as humility, knowledge, justice and holiness, and kindness (even authority) as associated with and indeed part-and-parcel with the Wisdom of Proverbs not only because such concepts reflect wisdom in the chapter and book but because they remind me (at least me) of the contrast with modern semantic baggage attached to the term particularly from educational bonds. Wisdom in Proverbs is not merely knowledge of fact nor even professional or pragmatic application of such facts, at least in secular seclusion from the sacred, but is rather steeped first and foremost in relationship with God and in obedience to Him.

What has thus often surprised me is that the book of Proverbs often seems to include so little transparent allusion to Torah demands (or direct quotation), not that such allusion is absent at least in terms of moral consistency. David's psalms will at times include material suggesting he followed covenant injunctions to the king to meditate daily in the law of the Lord (Deut. 17 and cf. e.g., Ps. 103-106); Solomon of course diverges from a number of Mosaic commands to the king (e.g., multiplying horses and wives, the latter hence his slide into idolatry, cf. 1 Kings 11). But Solomon's wisdom was also a special gift of God; his Scripture and Wisdom herself speak with an authority like Moses's. Indeed God spoke, and it was so. To the praise of the glory of His grace.

And lastly note that Wisdom as herald from the town square suggests access is far more than provincial (even if common sense is uncommon): "I raise my voice to all mankind." Israel was not the only light to the nations even if she was unique among them.

Hi,

In Proverbs, I love. I will do nothing else.

The use of consort, is baffling me. I have no definitons of that word, to match the pre-pubescent guy-girl relationship that I so ever much see and feel between God and Wisdom here in Proverbs 8. Consort scares me. Maybe I should not be scared.

I like where you are at, in knowledge of God. I do.

As far as for divergence, indeed I diverge. Yet, it is not I that diverges really. It is guesses taken at what the words wisdom mean in Proverbs.

Every time, I have tried to prove wrong that Wisdom is what I have heard historically, it is easy. She is neither The Holy Spirit, nor the personification of a trait called wisdom, nor is she the personification of Jesus.

She rather is she, where she is mentioned, to me. She rather has wisdom, and may even be wisdom the characteristic. If she is wisdom also, the characteristic, then wisdom is two parts to me, like God is light, or God is love, and it is to me that, Wisdom is wisdom.

Now, if Wisdom is wisdom, like God is light, and God is love, and all the otherthings that can be said about God, then maybe likewise, she is what she is, and she is named by what she is, by God.

To be sure, Mark 9:38-42 applies here. And, I can use your inputs not in contention, but is helping me with this rather complex idea. I will tell you this, my relationship with Wisdom, is like a lot of people's, in that it is more than thought, more than what I read, it is several experiences with her.

Many people have this. One person told me there are ten's of millions of people with this. Have you ever had a solution to even a non religious problem, and thought it was really your brilliance, that maybe brilliance feels like it did when you came up with a solution to a problem out of nowhere? I say, there is no way to prove, to yourself, that the answers did not come from a person, who has the name Wisdom, and maybe is exactly what God calls her, and that is wisdom, the characteristic.

Yes, you don't have to know this. I just wanted to answer your thoughts, that this talking of Wisdom, is a divergence from established Theology. I don't think it is.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[brinny]

The entire chapter 8 is profound, and this verse sorta' "sticks out" alng with others, but it's such a beautiful promise, isn't it?

"35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD." ~35

(sorry, there's a glitch here on CF and i cain't see what i'm typing till after i post it LL) I was posting Proverbs *;35

 

[brinny]

hahahaaa! Ohhhh hep me

 

[Look Up]

Hi,

In Proverbs, I love. I will do nothing else.

The use of consort, is baffling me. I have no definitons of that word, to match the pre-pubescent guy-girl relationship that I so ever much see and feel between God and Wisdom here in Proverbs 8. Consort scares me. Maybe I should not be scared.

I like where you are at, in knowledge of God. I do.

As far as for divergence, indeed I diverge. Yet, it is not I that diverges really. It is guesses taken at what the words wisdom mean in Proverbs.

Every time, I have tried to prove wrong that Wisdom is what I have heard historically, it is easy. She is neither The Holy Spirit, nor the personification of a trait called wisdom, nor is she the personification of Jesus.

She rather is she, where she is mentioned, to me. She rather has wisdom, and may even be wisdom the characteristic. If she is wisdom also, the characteristic, then wisdom is two parts to me, like God is light, or God is love, and it is to me that, Wisdom is wisdom.

Now, if Wisdom is wisdom, like God is light, and God is love, and all the otherthings that can be said about God, then maybe likewise, she is what she is, and she is named by what she is, by God.

To be sure, Mark 9:38-42 applies here. And, I can use your inputs not in contention, but is helping me with this rather complex idea. I will tell you this, my relationship with Wisdom, is like a lot of people's, in that it is more than thought, more than what I read, it is several experiences with her.

Many people have this. One person told me there are ten's of millions of people with this. Have you ever had a solution to even a non religious problem, and thought it was really your brilliance, that maybe brilliance feels like it did when you came up with a solution to a problem out of nowhere? I say, there is no way to prove, to yourself, that the answers did not come from a person, who has the name Wisdom, and maybe is exactly what God calls her, and that is wisdom, the characteristic.

Yes, you don't have to know this. I just wanted to answer your thoughts, that this talking of Wisdom, is a divergence from established Theology. I don't think it is.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Hi Mary,

First, regarding my negative view of some hypothetical claim as I had imagined that Wisdom be conceived as a female consort to YHWH (Google search the word "consort"), I was intending no accusation nor innuendo against you or your words (in case that was a question in your mind), but only expressing my reservation of what some might think or argue--again hypothetically. Or it was a direction we would wish to avoid.

I had particularly in mind some parallel of ancient provenance to the effect, "What the goddess Ashtoreth is to the (male) god Baal, so (it might be claimed) Lady Wisdom is to YHWH"--which I am confident you also would reject, to the settling, I hope, of your mind and heart. "I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no god" (Isa. 45:5).

That aside, I do recall instances of praying for wisdom in a way of addressing for publication my responses to certain questions on literary selections. If others would be preferred witnesses to whether my subsequent output was salted with wisdom, yet I had some confidence the Lord at times had granted me favor. Reassurances of the nearness of God and of His goodness and goodness to us in the here and now is indeed a delight to cultivate rather than avoid in fear even if, swimming in secular seas of the west, I have found such cultivation counter-cultural. Or alas, endangered by doctrinal drift into mystical fogs! But then I am only me.

May the Lord assure us both of His love and grant us wisdom indeed in seeing His word fulfilled before our eyes in human words and deeds and in daily acts of Providence. Lady Wisdom is gently calling to us too.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi Mary,

First, regarding my negative view of some hypothetical claim as I had imagined that Wisdom be conceived as a female consort to YHWH (Google search the word "consort"), I was intending no accusation nor innuendo against you or your words (in case that was a question in your mind), but only expressing my reservation of what some might think or argue--again hypothetically. Or it was a direction we would wish to avoid.

I had particularly in mind some parallel of ancient provenance to the effect, "What the goddess Ashtoreth is to the (male) god Baal, so (it might be claimed) Lady Wisdom is to YHWH"--which I am confident you also would reject, to the settling, I hope, of your mind and heart. "I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no god" (Isa. 45:5).

That aside, I do recall instances of praying for wisdom in a way of addressing for publication my responses to certain questions on literary selections. If others would be preferred witnesses to whether my subsequent output was salted with wisdom, yet I had some confidence the Lord at times had granted me favor. Reassurances of the nearness of God and of His goodness and goodness to us in the here and now is indeed a delight to cultivate rather than avoid in fear even if, swimming in secular seas of the west, I have found such cultivation counter-cultural. Or alas, endangered by doctrinal drift into mystical fogs! But then I am only me.

May the Lord assure us both of His love and grant us wisdom indeed in seeing His word fulfilled before our eyes in human words and deeds and in daily acts of Providence. Lady Wisdom is gently calling to us too.

Hi,
Maybe I should not post mystical things, yet I learned the Bible that way. Jerome was my teacher and he has been what we call dead for many a year.

Yes, mystical stuff does fog, all but other mystics, and just not any mystic, but only those who have restricted themselves to only things of God.

When I was placed into the mystical realm by a mojor series of events, I remembered or searched out items like, understanding mystics. It was there before me, mystics of God, Christian mystics, those with any experience but from God, are not undertood by anyone, who is not the same in some way.

I noticed, no one understood my explanations of God, nor how Jerome, Saint Jerome could be and was my teacher.

I am most sorry, if this is a burden for you. I do not intend to burden you. Now hopefully this will help.

You do not have to know what I know. I am not intending for each person here, to know everything I know.

This next part may help also.

I do not know everything that each of you knows. I am not intending to but wish, each and every jem, that you posess in knowledge of God, that I too unerstand that.

As and example a persson here said that the woman who was adulterating was having fun in Proverbs 6 or 7. I had no idea, of that was true, but upon her saying it, I looked.

And, OhMy, it looks every bit true. She understands this. I only now know of it.

With you, I expect to learn. Yet, I need you not to talk to me, but to talk to the content of Proverbs in your own life. I need you not to worry about me. I need you to not worry about others here, in Proverbs of the day. Please just share you insights, your personal insights on the Proverb of the day.

Now, I am a veteran and a battle scarred vweteran. I am not the most experience veteran there is, but I have enough. I too worry about what others might think, but not here. Here I will not engage, but love.

Love here, to me is doing the will of. Hate here is to oppose the will of, or to not do the will of. That is my own personal definition, that I use of love, as that is the Biblical definition of love. Not human love is that, it is the way God loves. He does the Will of the one He loves. That is complicated normally, as humans have lots of ifs, and's and buts.

I can also as God did, do your secret will, if I can figure out what that is. In God's case He did our secret will in sending down Jesus to make us right with Him.

So, to me in John someplace, where love (doing the will of) is said to be, not that we have loved, but that we have been loved, I asked myself, how is our will being done, being loved, by Jesus dying on the cross for us.

It occured to me. Maybe secretly, our will, is to be right with God. Maybe even some, not me*, want eternal life. Yet, I don't think the last part is true. Not all people want eternal life. I didn't. I have heard of one other who also do not want eternal life. So I imagine there are far more than a few, who do not want eternal life.

What I cannot say is false though, is anyone not wanting to be okay with God. I think that might be the secret will God did for us. Still there might be something else. I am just saying that for some of us, being right with God is all we care about. I am one of those. It is all I care about.

I love Proverbs, because it is from God, God makes us learn just by reading, and there is much here to guide our lives correctly. Read for instance, in how to handle mockers online, and how to handle the wicked online. That is in Proverbs 9.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Catherineanne]

Wisdom is a personification, but it/she is the wisdom of Christ; it is he who is in the beginning with God, and the wisdom is his. Read it again as his wisdom and it makes far more sense. She is female, perhaps in recognition that in all people the strength is male but the wisdom is female. We do not have a four part God; we have a Trinity.

Wisdom is not a consort to God.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hi,
Maybe I should not post mystical things, yet I learned the Bible that way. Jerome was my teacher and he has been what we call dead for many a year.

Yes, mystical stuff does fog, all but other mystics, and just not any mystic, but only those who have restricted themselves to only things of God.

When I was placed into the mystical realm by a mojor series of events, I remembered or searched out items like, understanding mystics. It was there before me, mystics of God, Christian mystics, those with any experience but from God, are not undertood by anyone, who is not the same in some way.

Q What is the first sign of a true mystic?

A They will never use this term of themselves.

Our God is not the author of confusion. Where he is, clarity and understanding are found.

 

[katerinah1947]

Wisdom is a personification, but it/she is the wisdom of Christ; it is he who is in the beginning with God, and the wisdom is his. Read it again as his wisdom and it makes far more sense. She is female, perhaps in recognition that in all people the strength is male but the wisdom is female. We do not have a four part God; we have a Trinity.

Wisdom is not a consort to God.

Hi,

Wisdom is a personification, but it/she is the wisdom of Christ; it is he who is in the beginning with God, and the wisdom is his. Read it again as his wisdom and it makes far more sense. She is female, perhaps in recognition that in all people the strength is male but the wisdom is female. We do not have a four part God; we have a Trinity.

Wisdom is not a consort to God.

Hi,

Under this definition of consort, the word is horrible to me, as applied to Wisdom and God.

And I cannot imagine how anyone is coming up with that definition, or suggesting by reading Proverbs 8, that, that definition could apply.

I also cannot see how anyone could see, that as applying to my words about Widsom either.

From a past experience, one day I asked this woman that I ate lunch with. Why do you always see, in other people's conversations those ideas.
You asked, that other person to never talk that way again, in a suggestive way. They are no longer talking that way. I am speaking for that person, to you. The question I was to ask you and I am now, is the reason you always see that kind of activity, because that is what you are always thinking about.
She didn't have to answer, this friend of mine. Her face told me the answer. Never again, did she accuse anyone of thinking what was thinking.

The word consort cannot apply to Wisdom, in the relationship Wisdom has with God, as there are zero words there, and there are zero concepts of that kind of activity anywhere in the Bible that I am aware of, to presuppose they have a wife/husband relationship. Nor, can I see anyone disapproving of anything God does, so the verb definition does not apply either.

Nor have I or anyone suggested God is four.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

con·sort1
noun
ˈkänsôrt/

1. 1.
   a wife, husband, or companion, in particular the spouse of a reigning monarch.
   synonyms: partner, life partner, companion, mate; More
   

verb
kənˈsôrt,ˈkänˌsôrt/

1. 1.
   habitually associate with (someone), typically with the disapproval of others.
   "you chose to consort with the enemy"
   synonyms: associate, keep company, mix, go around, spend time, socialize, fraternize, have dealings;More
   

Reading Proverbs 8 the way you asked, works quite well, in most ways it seems. The thought of Wisdom, only being the wisdom of Christ, makes some sense.

 

[katerinah1947]

Q What is the first sign of a true mystic?

A They will never use this term of themselves.

Our God is not the author of confusion. Where he is, clarity and understanding are found.

Hi,
I didn't know it was legal to say a proclaimed mystic was not one.
I did not know the Psychologist who finally got me to talk about this at age 66 was wrong.
I did not know the Psychiatrist who talked to be was wrong about another peson who The Holy Spirit talked to and told him to do something, was wrong.
I did not realize the Bible cannot be proven to be right.
I did not realize God never makes Himself known to anyone, ever.
I did not know God is not Trinitarian.

Now that you have told me, you know better as all of the above was learned mystically, Christian Mystically, I can now cast aside any certainties of God, and the Bible.

You have proven me to be a false mystic, by me calling myself a mystic.

You have proven me to be a false mystic, by confusing, and giving no understanding.

I guesss I should thank you for that.

Thank-you,
LOVE, Oh, I can't use that word anymore.
I think this is goodbye Tish1r1.
Being not of God, I don't think I belong here anymore.
...Mary., .... .

 

[Look Up]

Hi Mary,

If you are as I suppose a member of the body of Christ, I urge you not to forsake the assembly of believers whatever you do or don't do on this forum--not forsaking the assembly (the church) that is for mutual exhortation and encouragement (Heb. 10:25), for the members of the body both need each other and minister to each other.

You for instance have an ear but also a voice (or on this forum, writing). Our experiences and thoughts may be different as the foot and the eye of the body differ, but we are part of one body.

I for one tend both to shy away from mysticism (where it threatens to diverge from orthodoxy) and to envy it (for its relational and personal nature with respect to God)--well, though in some senses it also seems inescapable in a world in which God relates to us and we to God. How does one pray--genuinely--in the absence of a certain mystical experience with God? How does one exercise faith in God or in some promise of His without some sort of mystical (non-empirical?) relationship with God?

 

[Look Up]

Hi Mary,

One more thought. You may also need more help as a suffering person than can reasonably be offered on this forum; you would do well to seek or continue such clerical and professional counseling help as you have access to, for the God who ordains the preservation of His sheep also ordains the means. May God preserve us.

 

[Tishri1]

The entire chapter 8 is profound, and this verse sorta' "sticks out" alng with others, but it's such a beautiful promise, isn't it?

"35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD." ~35

(sorry, there's a glitch here on CF and i cain't see what i'm typing till after i post it LL) I was posting Proverbs *;35

I love that too!

1Wisdom is calling! Understanding is raising her voice!

I actually think that is happening now with in this chapter even!

For each of us this voice sounds different and that's ok, and lets commit to come back next month too and see how the Lord chooses to speak these words to us again....

This month though the first two verses are an echo reaching back to Proverbs one and unless I had been reading a chapter a day, I doubt I would have noticed that YES Wisdom is raising her voice! It is the perfect way to describe how it sounds too! After 8 chapters can we hardly doubt there is a warning here? ...And yes lots of promises too! .... After 8 chapters do we have an answer to give?
I cant help seeing this voice is raised to our country, and to our churches, and to our lives.

3 by the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4 "People, I am calling you, raising my voice to all mankind.
5 You who don't direct your lives, understand caution; as for you, you fools, get some common sense!

That is a voice raised to our country! Will our country listen and gain wisdom?

10 Receive my instruction, rather than silver; knowledge, rather than the finest gold.
11 For wisdom is better than pearls; nothing you want can compare with her.

My prayer that our nation can get back to this simple truth.

15 By me kings reign, and princes make just laws.
16 By me princes govern, nobles too, and all the earth's rulers.
17 I love those who love me; and those who seek me will find me.

again specifically speaking to the government

19 My fruit is better than gold, fine gold, my produce better than the finest silver.
20 I follow the course of righteousness along the paths of justice,

34 How happy the person who listens to me, who watches daily at my gates and waits outside my doors.
35 For he who finds me finds life and obtains the favor of ADONAI.
36 But he who misses me harms himself;

And our government is getting a pass from the church....we have fallen a sleep and are just now waking up.....At least we are coming out of our slumber right?

 

[brinny]

....i hadn't thought of it relating to our country per se, but it's true, isn't it? And wisdom, yes, IS raising its voice in the hopes of being heard, because it is more than ever "urgent" that we hear wisdom and pay heed to what it is saying.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi Mary,

If you are as I suppose a member of the body of Christ, I urge you not to forsake the assembly of believers whatever you do or don't do on this forum--not forsaking the assembly (the church) that is for mutual exhortation and encouragement (Heb. 10:25), for the members of the body both need each other and minister to each other.

You for instance have an ear but also a voice (or on this forum, writing). Our experiences and thoughts may be different as the foot and the eye of the body differ, but we are part of one body.

I for one tend both to shy away from mysticism (where it threatens to diverge from orthodoxy) and to envy it (for its relational and personal nature with respect to God)--well, though in some senses it also seems inescapable in a world in which God relates to us and we to God. How does one pray--genuinely--in the absence of a certain mystical experience with God? How does one exercise faith in God or in some promise of His without some sort of mystical (non-empirical?) relationship with God?

Hi,
Thank-you for saying do not forsake the assembly of Believers. Now that I am more recovered, I will try and stay here.
In response to having God Stupefy me, to learn about Him, there is little else apart from working with and for God that I want to do.
Being in what is "normally" called a mystical marriage with God, there is you, and all of God's people on earth, and Him, plus His Family and family, that concern me now. I am sure that you should be able to relate to how, God, that if I am truly married to Him, is in fact my major concern and all that really concens me now. The marriage happened in late 2007, and I am the first ever to be married to That Member of The Trinity, however the idea of a mystcal marriage to Jesus, which is old, is fairly frequent, as there are at least 70, women and one man, that I have been told have been asked. Mary, the one the Roman Catholics call the Virgin Mary, is my most notable memory, of the first one who has had this request, although hers was delivered quite without thse words being spoken, rather she was asked and said YES!!!, in her words of Let it be done to me, according to your will.

I love Proverbs.

...Of all things, I was still recovering from being verbally attacked on CF, Christian Forums, when I found out my attacker "says" he/she has Dissociative Identity Disorder and PTSD.

I remember the last person I worked with like this, and the PTSD was not there, despite attempts to mimic this, by that person. What was there is extreme manipulation, and those two items, PTSD and DID, are used as shields against being understood. And, to be not understood, allows the manipulation to continue, unabated, as it allows the abuser to be excused.

The young boy, in my experience, who I came across that is also a victim, I was able to see his heart one day, with the victimizer present. I was unaware the person with me was the only victimizer, or was just one member in a family of victimizers.

When, I was granted the view by God I say, there was a thick cloud in front of the eighteen month old boy's heart. I went around the back side, and told that heart, and therefore the boy something. Then I left, his heart. He was reaching out to me in hopes of being rescued, from his plight. I felt bad, that I was already unable to help, as the manipulator, had already removed me from being someone to talk to.

I am a magnet, but also a grunt clueless soldier type, as I blunder into each situation, only to be wounded by manipulators, while others notice. The noticing part, of others and even myself after awhile, makes peace for all those other victims who are merely unaware that these types of people exist.

Manipulators are particularly attracted to Religion. And all of them fail Matthew 7:15-16. They fail it by merely not being sweet and nice to all people, and all of the time. That, test, that standard test, is given to us and set up by God, but I was given that in a revealed moment.

Being revealed, and an answer to a question about my long term harassment, but still having no tool to fight against a false group, Matthew 7:15, was given to me.

So, everyone, this is not my own work, rather when I finally understood what I WAS given, IT, worked.

The understanding came from looking at the way, the group acted in private, that Matthew 7:15 was given by God, The Holy Spirit in is case, was given to me, in response to my statement to heaven or God. "I have great stuff for the *******. I have nothing for the ******** *********."

It was in looking at the way, they acted, when not on the job, of their ministries.

OHMY! When I first came across, my first test subject's ways of treating others around him, I wondered if THAT negative pattern is what I was going to learn is present in these Matthew 7:15's, according to The Holy Spirit's Own Words.

I spent about three months collecting, and analyzing data from all sources. I tried to make sure all the data, that I used was accurate.

The result was, that in every single case, there is meanness in actions, of the women and the men, outside of their public, ministries.

The wonderful part is Biblically they are also talked about in Proverbs 9:7-8, but are also talked about in at least one other area, of the Bible, yet for the non-religious world this very same idea works on them also.

I am not really surprised, ANYMORE, in finding out what is given to me by God personally, or from the Bible and properly understood, is true fir all of God's Creation, but I am hurt, that so few understand and know, that this is so, and of course as it must be, if The Bible is actually what God caused to be written, for us to have.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

I love Proverbs, as here and in the next section under Proverbs 9:7-9, God tells me how to handle mockers, and the wicked, but also the way to handle those who are of God, and that is to enjoy them.
Also, having God let me know things, or ask me to do things, or even tell me things using His personal speaking voice, to do His Work on earth some of the time, is part of my form of mysticism.
I may have a different understanding, but that is my understanding. It may be precisely correct. It may not be. Yet, how can you or anyone else, who merely quote what others have told you is correct, say that I cannot possibly be correct, without being wrong yourself. Gentiles were allowed in, and marriage is forever, but once upon a time those ideas were not understood by the orthodoxy, of their day and age.
Plus, I tell you this: When David was speaking the words of God The Holy Spirit, he David said: The Lord, God The Father said to my Lord, God The Son, sit here on my right side, until I, God The Father, make Your enemies a footstool...... As, these words were spoken by Jesus, in The New Testament, they refused to answere Jesus, and one of the reasons might be, because they knew whe He was, but their minds were closed.
In Psalms2, if you substitute, God The Father, and Jesus, for The Lord and my Lord, it becomes abundantly clear, that the aforementioned is true. Also, Jesus will accept His inheritance there, and the word way, as in the way is mentioned there adding clarity, for Jesus was talked about there, and in other places in The Old Testament.
I will say what I know, and all those who wish to act like those priests in the time if Jesus, can do so, BUT, you may find out later,that you were wrong. You may even prove that I am false mystic, but if we follow Proverbs, then I am prohbited, from responding to mockers and those who acted wickedly, but only to the wise, as God defines that word.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Look Up]

Hi Mary,

I am glad you are recovered, or recovered to the extent you are, and sorry you were emotionally abused as one, if I understand you, already vulnerable due to war wounds of the spirit, if I can put it that way (and if accurate). May the Lord be your shield. While again I am not sure I understand all you write, I think I understand enough to be encouraged, not only by your victories of the soul but also by your example to me and to others: God is with us now as of old.

All of us are sinners in need of the crucified and raised Jesus, hence at least most of us are sinned-against (by "victimizers" as you name them). I am reminded of a mugging-robbery against a Bible commentator Matthew Henry some centuries ago (having that is merely read of the incident myself) following which Henry thanked God for several items associated with the event, one of which was that he himself (Henry) did not commit the robbery. Indeed regarding that robber, surely "there but for the grace of God go I." May the Lord prevent us from being victimizers (as well as victims), but in all events by His grace faithful to the Lord.

And may the Lord help us pray for the good of the victimizers too, that is particularly for their repentance and reconciliation even where we are as often otherwise impotent in ourselves to improve the situation. Perhaps the Lord will be merciful (I think of Matt. 5:43-48, 2 Tim. 2:24-26, Prov. 26:4-5).

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,
I'd love to tell you that, I don't get too involved. I'd love to tell you that. I cannot. It seemed when I lost it and needed a rest, as you said, it is by God's Good Grace that happens.
Fortunately, your God and mine gave me a gift one day. The gift was I was able to love, like He loves. That sounds impossible, and it would be on any other subject matter. I hold enough of that love, loving like God, to not care about being abused, but care about my abusers, fearfully. Yet, I must still follow the rules laid out in how to deal with them.
However, for them it may not be all doom and gloom. Jesus pretty much seems to think that as long as we try and do things His way, failures from time to time, are meaniningless to Him. It seems to be all He wants is for us to try, then try, then try and try and try.
Wisdom to me is not only, a beautiful woman, but she is also all that is said of her Biblically. And whether one can separate, or is ready to separate the person Wisdom, from all the ways wisdom is used in Proverbs and elsewhere, seems ever so not as important, as just doing in the moment what God is asking you to do for Him.
Whether she is as I say and as I deal with her, and as I sense and as I have seen through the eyes of one like me, who has seen her, what she does is what is important. She tells us in Proverbs how to get closer to God.
Proverbs is one of the single most useful tools to use, in whatever it is, God has assigned for you to do.
Let me say that another way, as it is in my life. Proverbs allowed me to work with a lot of people and understand them. And, understanding and working with people is part of my job. It is in understanding others that your God, has me do things like clean up the bad actors. Some of that comes at great pain to myself. Great pain is handled by God, just as you said.
I will say something, and hopefully you can see this, or use it someday. In non God Language, which includes visions with content, and feeling with content, plus a total understanding of every spoken word used, I can say this about Jesus: He loves because His base personality is that He is Tender and Mild. Yes, that was given, and no it may not be possible for you to understand the rest, but if you ask me, I will describe what happened, and maybe some of that will help you to believe, that love comes from being Tender and Mild, Strength does also.
For me, after that was revealed to me in God Language, yes complete with my words, and a vision with content, and each response, of a word from God with content, and feelings with content, and maybe even visions with content, that was one idea I was exposed to, for a job I was to do for God in about 22 months.
Within two weeks of that occurance, I walked into a room, with the open, what Catholics call The Eucharist, and as all of this was mostly a secret still, the conversation I had with Jesus was only between He and I. It went like this: "Oh, so the big bad God of the Universe, (and with wonderful feelings and admiration), is tender and mild."
I was stunned at that interpretation of God, as I had heard nothing of that from people. Rather the opposite impression is given of the God of The Old Testament. Yet, the big bad God of The Universe is Tender and mild.
To read the Bible with that realization, opens up what God is doing in many of the texts. Thus a tender and mild God, would not want to destroy anyone. And, we do indeed see that reluctance in Sodom and Gamorrah. It is also seen in Ninevah. Also, I think in Jeremiah and Lamentations, there is much reluctance to God divorcing Israel, and the threat to do that to Judah. If that were not enough, He tells us somewhere to never be happy at the demise of our foes, rather it is to feel sadness. Notice how you said the same things. Notice how a person tender and mild, does not want to hurt, or punish, but like your mother will do it anyway, for the greater good of you or others if you are causing them a problem. She does not want to hurt you, but she will. Jesus is like that, in His core personality. That is what I learned.
Unfortunately for some, to learn this by God revealing this to me, is a problem, and I don't know what that problem is. I am told it is jealosy, but it is lack of knowledge. Our job is not to be God, it is to be what He wants us to be. And that is why all of us, stick to the rules, if it is rules we are asked to follow.
I am tired and it is getting harder and harder to talk, when all my experiences with God, are so overwhelming when compared to before, I was actually given this direct contact. The frustrating part is, not that I know it, but that it seems no one can benefit from anything of me, but my concern for them.
Now, do you not see, that at least for me, Wisdom is a spirit creature, like the angels, and like God to some extent, but totally female. Totally female to me. Now, do you not see that to me, all instances of the word wisdom in Proverbs is not about her, but the characteristic called wisdom.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .