David Bentley Hart on Hell

Der Alte

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It’s also worth noting that the Talmud is basically a collection of the oral law. Jesus didn’t accept the validity of the oral law, e.g.Mat 15:1 ff., Mark 7:5. He taught about resurrection and judgement, so he did accept some ideas that developed after the OT, but we should be cautious about using documents from centuries later giving views of his opponents.
Jesus did not accept some of the oral law but He told the Jews,
Matthew 23:2-3
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​
And as I said in another post the Talmud is relevant where the 2 Jewish encyclopedias I quoted, mirror it. Another source documenting the points stated.
 
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Der Alte

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keiw said:
Comma error at Luke--It really reads--Truly i tell you today, you will be ith me in paradise. The bible is clear-Jesus was in the grave for 3 days dead, he could not be in paradise the first day as that comma error suggests.
That is incorrect. From the criminal's POV, he was not necessarily a thief, it was today. He died and his next conscious thought would be waking up in paradise. For the criminal it would seem to be the same day, actually the same instant. And we don't have to play games with commas.
 
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Andrewn

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How big is that alter since billions have died. No it does not mean paradise and no where in the bible does it claim that.
The book of Revelation is a vision. How big is God's throne?

judgement occurs. Some will learn and apply Jesus Fathers will, the rest go with satan to be destroyed.
You say that "some will learn and apply Jesus Fathers will." Is the judgment based on what people did before their death or after their resurrection, during the Millennium?
 
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Andrewn

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From the criminal's POV, he was not necessarily a thief, it was today. He died and his next conscious thought would be waking up in paradise. For the criminal it would seem to be the same day, actually the same instant.
I'm surprised that the POV you present is not typically the Baptists' belief.
 
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keiw

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The book of Revelation is a vision. How big is God's throne?


You say that "some will learn and apply Jesus Fathers will." Is the judgment based on what people did before their death or after their resurrection, during the Millennium?


The wages of sin is death. those wages have been paid. If one wasnt totally wicked i believe God will give them a chance to learn and apply. What would be the sense of resurrecting those just to tell them they are going to die when they are already dead?
That is why satan gets loosed for a little while to test those-unfortunately it says those who follow him are as the sands of the sea. rev 20:8
 
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keiw

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That is incorrect. From the criminal's POV, he was not necessarily a thief, it was today. He died and his next conscious thought would be waking up in paradise. For the criminal it would seem to be the same day, actually the same instant. And we don't have to play games with commas.


The way its worded with the comma mistake it says on that day.
 
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Andrewn

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The wages of sin is death. those wages have been paid. If one wasnt totally wicked i believe God will give them a chance to learn and apply. What would be the sense of resurrecting those just to tell them they are going to die when they are already dead?
This obviously brings to mind JW's beliefs about the Millennium. I will not automatically reject them because JW's believe this way. In fact, I find this scenario of the Millennium a lot more rational than the widespread Dispensational scenario.

You are also in agreement with me about some sort of post-mortem progression. I believe this takes place before resurrection of the body and you believe it takes place after the resurrection. Both of us agree that that takes place during the Millennium, since I believe that we are now in the Millennium. Disclosure: I believe in Realized Millennialism.

The Lord said:

Joh 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of condemnation.

This statement and many statements in Revelation show no indication of post-mortem salvation after the resurrection. How do you prove your position, biblically?
 
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keiw

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This obviously brings to mind JW's beliefs about the Millennium. I will not automatically reject them because JW's believe this way. In fact, I find this scenario of the Millennium a lot more rational than the widespread Dispensational scenario.

You are also in agreement with me about some sort of post-mortem progression. I believe this takes place before resurrection of the body and you believe it takes place after the resurrection. Both of us agree that that takes place during the Millennium, since I believe that we are now in the Millennium. Disclosure: I believe in Realized Millennialism.

The Lord said:

Joh 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of condemnation.

This statement and many statements in Revelation show no indication of post-mortem salvation after the resurrection. How do you prove your position, biblically?


There are 2 resurrections-The little flock( Luke 12:32) the remaining ones alive go during the tribulation to heaven. These are numbered-Rev 14:3-144,000-- This is the bride of Christ, promised heaven to rule as kings and priests alongside of Jesus-Rev 1:6-rev 20:6) Rev 20:12- explains John5:28 Looks like its occurring after satan is destroyed. But i dont think that is the case. many werent that wicked, they were just mislead. And i believe they get an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will before satan is destroyed. But it shows many, as the sands of the sea follow him after he is loosed. Rev 20:8- these did not take advantage of their chance. The second death is the permanent death.
 
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Der Alte

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I'm surprised that the POV you present is not typically the Baptists' belief.

I'm not big on lock step compliance. I also don't believe OSAS the way most So. Baptists do either. I have read Hebrews 10:28-31.
I compared the thief's experience with some of my operations. My most recent @ VA was a "simple 5 minute" laparoscopic umbilical hernia repair. They gave me anesthesia and when I came out of the anesthesia, unaware of any time passing, it was 5+ hours later. The procedure went south I had acute kidney failure, sepsis, ileus and A-fibrillation. Which pushed me over 100% disabled.
 
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Andrewn

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I'm not big on lock step compliance. I also don't believe OSAS the way most So. Baptists do either. I have read Hebrews 10:28-31.
Yes, most Baptists lean toward Calvinism. But you certainly lean toward Arminianism.

All of the early church fathers who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, considered it factual. Whatever Lazarus and the rich man may be, it is NOT a parable.
How do you harmonize a belief that the story of Dives and Lazarus is factual with your belief in soul sleep?

I compared the thief's experience with some of my operations. My most recent @ VA was a "simple 5 minute" laparoscopic umbilical hernia repair. They gave me anesthesia and when I came out of the anesthesia, unaware of any time passing, it was 5+ hours later.
I understand.

The procedure went south I had acute kidney failure, sepsis, ileus and A-fibrillation. Which pushed me over 100% disabled.
So sorry to hear this. I hope most of these issues have resolved by now.
 
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Der Alte

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The way its worded with the comma mistake it says on that day.
You saying there is a comma mistake doesn't make it so.
It is said of Abraham Lincoln that when he was criticized on how he conducted the civil war he said, "
“If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.”
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, most Baptists lean toward Calvinism. But you certainly lean toward Arminianism.
How do you harmonize a belief that the story of Dives and Lazarus is factual with your belief in soul sleep?
What is impossible for man is possible for God.

So sorry to hear this. I hope most of these issues have resolved by now.
Unfortunately no. VA rates me as 100% Total and permanent. Based on the state of medicine at the present. The only way I can go, is down.
 
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keiw

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You saying there is a comma mistake doesn't make it so.
It is said of Abraham Lincoln that when he was criticized on how he conducted the civil war he said, "
“If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.”


The bible proves it is error. Jesus was not raised until the 3rd day. He could not be in paradise the first day. Its that simple.
 
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Andrewn

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There are 2 resurrections-The little flock( Luke 12:32) the remaining ones alive go during the tribulation to heaven. These are numbered-Rev 14:3-144,000-- This is the bride of Christ, promised heaven to rule as kings and priests alongside of Jesus-Rev 1:6-rev 20:6)
Like other pre-Millennialists you believe in 2 bodily resurrections: one at the Lord's return and the 2nd after satan is destroyed. As an Amillennialist, I believe that the bride of Christ is already reigning with Christ in Paradise, without bodily resurrection. The Lord's return, satan's destruction, and the general resurrection take place at the same time, at end of the current Millennium. The 144,000, as you said, is the bride of Christ. But it is not 144,000 individuals. It is a symbolic number for the billions who are the little flock.

Rev 20:12- explains John5:28 Looks like its occurring after satan is destroyed.
Yes, I agree with this.

But i dont think that is the case. many werent that wicked, they were just mislead. And i believe they get an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will before satan is destroyed.
You don't agree w/ Joh 5:28 and Rev 20:12? Your system of belief leads to this unsolvable conundrum where you need to start from the beginning and reconsider what your beliefs. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that what I have said might solve your difficulty.

But it shows many, as the sands of the sea follow him after he is loosed. Rev 20:8- these did not take advantage of their chance. The second death is the permanent death.
Yes, this is what the text indicates. Looks like you need to think it over.

Jesus was not raised until the 3rd day. He could not be in paradise the first day. Its that simple.
Jesus was not raised until the 3rd day. BUT this does not mean that his spirit was unconscious in the grave. His spirit was conscious and went on to preach to other spirits who were conscious in Hades.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,

Add this to the other verses that you have difficulty with and try to harmonize them with your belief in spirit unconsciousness.
 
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keiw

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Like other pre-Millennialists you believe in 2 bodily resurrections: one at the Lord's return and the 2nd after satan is destroyed. As an Amillennialist, I believe that the bride of Christ is already reigning with Christ in Paradise, without bodily resurrection. The Lord's return, satan's destruction, and the general resurrection take place at the same time, at end of the current Millennium. The 144,000, as you said, is the bride of Christ. But it is not 144,000 individuals. It is a symbolic number for the billions who are the little flock.


Yes, I agree with this.


You don't agree w/ Joh 5:28 and Rev 20:12? Your system of belief leads to this unsolvable conundrum where you need to start from the beginning and reconsider what your beliefs. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that what I have said might solve your difficulty.




Yes, this is what the text indicates. Looks like you need to think it over.


Jesus was not raised until the 3rd day. BUT this does not mean that his spirit was unconscious in the grave. His spirit was conscious and went on to preach to other spirits who were conscious in Hades.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,

Add this to the other verses that you have difficulty with and try to harmonize them with your belief in spirit unconsciousness.


No that number is not symbolic, its the little flock( Luke 12:32) the great crowd no man can number. The little flock is numbered.
Hades = Sheol= the grave.
On the day of ones death all thought stops.
Some of that bride is in heaven, the remaining ones on earth go during the tribulation these are apart of the first ressurection.
There is no ghost like creature living inside of one. it was symbolic.
Heb 10:26--There is no sacrafice left for any who practice a sin. Jesus will tell them the same at judgement-Matt 7:22-23--one works iniquity= a practicer of a sin.
 
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Andrewn

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No that number is not symbolic, its the little flock( Luke 12:32) the great crowd no man can number. The little flock is numbered.
Hades = Sheol= the grave.
On the day of ones death all thought stops.
Some of that bride is in heaven, the remaining ones on earth go during the tribulation these are apart of the first ressurection.
There is no ghost like creature living inside of one. it was symbolic.
Heb 10:26--There is no sacrafice left for any who practice a sin. Jesus will tell them the same at judgement-Matt 7:22-23--one works iniquity= a practicer of a sin.
You posted this only 9 minutes after I sent my message. Clearly, you do not address anything I said and you merely quote from a book or a manual!!!

You better post that in the Eschatology forum.
 
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Saint Steven

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For a good number of Christians, hell isn’t just a tragic shadow cast across one of an otherwise ravishing vista’s remoter corners; rather, it’s one of the landscape’s most conspicuous and delectable details.

I know whereof I speak. I’ve published many books, often willfully provocative, and have vexed my share of critics. But only recently, in releasing a book challenging the historical validity, biblical origins, philosophical cogency and moral sanity of the standard Christian teaching on the matter of eternal damnation, have I ever inspired reactions so truculent, uninhibited and (frankly) demented.


Opinion | Why Do People Believe in Hell? (Published 2020)

What do we think about this?
Back to the OP.

Yes, the doctrine of hell is such a smudge on Christianity. What a mess.

Seems blasphemous to me to have saddled our loving heavenly Father with such a grievous accusation as this.

That he would, with malice and forethought, conceive of a plan for humankind created in his image, to for the large part, be predestined to ETERNAL conscious TORMENT with NO HOPE of escape. Most of whom had never so much as heard the name of Jesus.

What sort of monster would do this? I mean, who would concoct such a blasphemous thing to lay on God? The answer is clear. The Church (or a part of it) has done this.
 
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keiw

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Back to the OP.

Yes, the doctrine of hell is such a smudge on Christianity. What a mess.

Seems blasphemous to me to have saddled our loving heavenly Father with such a grievous accusation as this.

That he would, with malice and forethought, conceive of a plan for humankind created in his image, to for the large part, be predestined to ETERNAL conscious TORMENT with NO HOPE of escape. Most of whom had never so much as heard the name of Jesus.

What sort of monster would do this? I mean, who would concoct such a blasphemous thing to lay on God? The answer is clear. The Church (or a part of it) has done this.


Yes the religion that came out of Rome caused all the confusion. They created certain teachings at their councils and translated errors in to deceive, by satans will. They didnt allow anyone to read the bible until the 1500,s, By then no one had a clue as to the errors in translating. If one tried to translate prior to that, that religion burned them at the stake alive with their translating. It was kept in latin up until then. So when others did translate could not correct the errors, thus lived in those errors for centuries. When it was finally corrected, those living by the errors rejected it. And 33,999 of those religions reject it to this day.
 
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Lukaris

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Even though while under persecution the early Christians still believed in the final judgment of heaven and hell. The Lord preached this in John 5:22-30 but did not preach a predestination to hell but only the basis of having done good or evil in life. Romans 2 clearly explains what the Lord says in John 5:22-30. Many of us will fail though and without salvation by grace through faith we are in serious danger. Listen to the Lord and listen to the preacher to fear the Lord and keep His commandments ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
 
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keiw

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Even though while under persecution the early Christians still believed in the final judgment of heaven and hell. The Lord preached this in John 5:22-30 but did not preach a predestination to hell but only the basis of having done good or evil in life. Romans 2 clearly explains what the Lord says in John 5:22-30. Many of us will fail though and without salvation by grace through faith we are in serious danger. Listen to the Lord and listen to the preacher to fear the Lord and keep His commandments ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).


Let me introduce you to the true God-LOVE, Justice, wisdom, power and mercy. Lets apply those to an eternal suffering teaching. First understand Gods justice scales are in perfect balance-true justice, uncorruptable

So one side of his scales-70-100 years of unrepented sinful life-- On the other side-Trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering.

See any balance, justice, love or Mercy? No is the answer-- a sadist would create such a place-false religion that do not even know the true God teach a literal eternal suffering.
He actually set before all-Deuteronomy 30:19--Life or death--both will be everlasting.
 
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