David Bentley Hart on Hell

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I am most pleased with God's Word written in the languages written.

I am most pleased accepting and believing the God-breathed (theo-pnuestos) Holy Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16).

I am most pleased with God's ways, wisdom and thinking as presented in the Judeo-Christian Holy Scriptures.

I am more than pleased with all that God is, does, says, thinks, commands, provides, promises, causes, etc., etc. etc.

You run with it sister. Congrats, your theology is immune from criticism that it is too rational or coherent, or that it glorifies God.

I kinda' like it.

Whatever works for you Clare.
 
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Clare73

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That's still a far, far shorter time period than 1000+ years. Even worse, you are referring to what was, as you said, not public knowledge. If Gehenna was a garbage dump, that would have hardly been private knowledge!
Which is more likely:
1) Gehenna was publicly known to be a garbage dump, but no one, in any surviving writing, ever thought to mention this fact anywhere for over a thousand years.
And you have established this as fact, how?
OR
2) David Kimhi simply made an error long after the fact and other people uncritically repeated it.

Again, perhaps I am wrong about Kimhi being the first one to make this assertion. If someone can point to an earlier instance, I would be happy to admit my error here. But if he was the first, then that would put so much doubt on the idea that it should be discarded.
 
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Clare73

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You run with it sister. Congrats, your theology is immune from criticism that it is too rational or coherent, or that it glorifies God.
Unless you can show me differently from the God-breathed Holy Scriptures, in context of the whole counsel of God.
Whatever works for you Clare.
For me, that is God's ways as revealed in the God-breathed Holy Scriptures.

One man's soup is another man's poison.
 
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JSRG

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And you have established this as fact, how?
"Enigmatic Bible Passages: Gehenna: The Topography of Hell" from The Biblical Archaeologist Vol 49 No. 3 (available for free with a JStor account here) on page 189 (pages 3 of the article itself), says this concerning Kimhi's statement of Gehenna being a garbage dump south of Jerusalem:

"Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient."

So, at least according to article in a peer-reviewed journal, there is no mention of Gehenna being a garbage dump in any written source--or archaeological data, for that matter--prior to him. Now, I'm very far from an expert on this so I do have to sort of take its word for it, which is why I asked if there was any source earlier than Kimhi that someone could point to.
 
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<QUOTE="JSRG">Enigmatic Bible Passages: Gehenna: The Topography of Hell" from The Biblical Archaeologist Vol 49 No. 3 (available for free with a JStor account here) on page 189 (pages 3 of the article itself), says this concerning Kimhi's statement of Gehenna being a garbage dump south of Jerusalem:
"Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient."
So, at least according to article in a peer-reviewed journal, there is no mention of Gehenna being a garbage dump in any written source--or archaeological data, for that matter--prior to him. Now, I'm very far from an expert on this so I do have to sort of take its word for it, which is why I asked if there was any source earlier than Kimhi that someone could point to.<
/QUOTE>
This is correct. The valley of Hinnom/Ge Hinnom or Gehenna was never used as a garbage dump or a place for disposing of bodies.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which is translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);(“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-)
(Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA)
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
= = = = = = =
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers....
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
 
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Unless you can show me differently from the God-breathed Holy Scriptures, in context of the whole counsel of God.

It's your interpretation of the scriptures that is at issue here, Clare.

Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem...but ye would not.

One man's soup is another man's poison.

What a bizarre and dangerous saying.
 
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Clare73

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"Enigmatic Bible Passages: Gehenna: The Topography of Hell" from The Biblical Archaeologist Vol 49 No. 3 (available for free with a JStor account here) on page 189 (pages 3 of the article itself), says this concerning Kimhi's statement of Gehenna being a garbage dump south of Jerusalem:

"Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient."

So, at least according to article in a peer-reviewed journal, there is no mention of Gehenna being a garbage dump in any written source--or archaeological data, for that matter--prior to him. Now, I'm very far from an expert on this so I do have to sort of take its word for it, which is why I asked if there was any source earlier than Kimhi that someone could point to.
Thanks so much for the source. . .however, there is much in the NT which does not have
"support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods,"
nor is it required for veracity.

"Archaeological data" a millennium later for a local garbage dump? Really?
Who went digging to miss it?
Sounds like a real snow job. . .see post #185 for actual scholarship.

The word of the Son of God is all that we need for the veracity of Gehenna,
snow jobs not-with-standing.
 
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This meme would suggest that Jesus never gave a warning concerning the results of rejecting His offered salvation.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
 
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Ceallaigh

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This meme would suggest that Jesus never gave a warning concerning the results of rejecting His offered salvation.

"From what I'm going do to you if you don't let me in" is the warning. According to some.

When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luke 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.

Jesus condemned the unscriptural extrabiblical teachings, traditions and laws of the Scribes and Pharisees. Although He used their man-made heresies against them.

…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.

One can view punishment as unconstructive torture, which would seem to serve no purpose, or one can view punishment as constructive correction, which would serve a purpose.
 
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Nice, really highlights the foolishness of mainstream soteriology.

But isn't it the unforgivable sin to question the inevitability of damnation of the many?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Nice, really highlights the foolishness of mainstream soteriology.

But isn't it the unforgivable sin to question the inevitability of damnation of the many?

Stop it, you're scaring me.
 
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JSRG

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Thanks so much for the source. . .however, there is much in the NT which does not have
"support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods,"
nor is it required for veracity.
The claim of Gehenna being in a garbage dump is not in the New Testament, so this point seems irrelevant.

"Archaeological data" a millennium later for a local garbage dump? Really?
Who went digging to miss it?
There have done various diggings in and around Jerusalem. But the point isn't merely that there was a lack of archaeological evidence, but that there is no mention of it in any writing or archaeological evidence until David Kimhi around the year 1200 AD.

Sounds like a real snow job. . .see post #185 for actual scholarship.
How does an article in a peer-reviewed journal not count as "actual scholarship"? Sure, peer-reviewed journals aren't perfect, but the peer review process is normally pretty good at filtering out factual errors (not necessarily errors in interpreting the facts, but expunging actual errors of fact). The dismissal of it as not being "actual scholarship" seems very odd.

Even more oddly, I do not see anything in post #185 that contradicts what I said. So what you declare to be "actual scholarship" still doesn't prove any counterpoint.

Of course, if you consider it such a "snow job" then all someone has to do is point to a single source prior to the year 1200 AD or so that states that Gehenna was a garbage dump in order to disprove the claim.
 
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Clare73

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The claim of Gehenna being in a garbage dump is not in the New Testament, so this point seems irrelevant.
There have done various diggings in and around Jerusalem. But the point isn't merely that there was a lack of archaeological evidence, but that there is no mention of it in any writing or archaeological evidence until David Kimhi around the year 1200 AD.
How does an article in a peer-reviewed journal not count as "actual scholarship"? Sure, peer-reviewed journals aren't perfect, but the peer review process is normally pretty good at filtering out factual errors (not necessarily errors in interpreting the facts, but expunging actual errors of fact). The dismissal of it as not being "actual scholarship" seems very odd.
Even more oddly, I do not see anything in post #185 that contradicts what I said. So what you declare to be "actual scholarship" still doesn't prove any counterpoint.
Of course, if you consider it such a "snow job" then all someone has to do is point to a single source prior to the year 1200 AD or so that states that Gehenna was a garbage dump in order to disprove the claim.
That explains a lot.

See real scholarship in post #185, David Bentley Hart on Hell, four articles, one under the other, the fourth being from the Meqweh of Second Temple Period, which refutes the snow-job presented by your deconstructionists.
 
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JSRG

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See real scholarship in post #185, David Bentley Hart on Hell, four articles, the fourth being from the Mequish of Second Temple Period, which refutes the snow-job presented by your deconstructionists.
It refutes absolutely nothing. The statement made:

"Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient."

So you apparently find the fourth excerpt of Der Alte's post to "refute" the "snow job". Here is what he wrote:
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers....
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
And this refutes it... how, exactly? The fact archeology found garbage dumps in Jerusalem? Of course they found garbage jumps in Jerusalem! It was a city, those have garbage dumps. But there is a lack of archeological evidence of Gehenna being, as was originally stated in the post I responded to that started this whole thing, a "perpetually burning city dump south of Jerusalem." Nothing from the above portion of Der Alte's post is archeological evidence for that claim.

Thus this provides no archeological evidence for Gehenna being a garbage dump. Therefore, the statement I quoted ("Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient") can hardly be considered a "snow job" despite your insistent usage of that term.
 
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Clare73

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It refutes absolutely nothing. The statement made:

"Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient."

So you apparently find the fourth excerpt of Der Alte's post to "refute" the "snow job". Here is what he wrote:

And this refutes it... how, exactly? The fact archeology found garbage dumps in Jerusalem? Of course they found garbage jumps in Jerusalem! It was a city, those have garbage dumps. But there is a lack of archeological evidence of Gehenna being, as was originally stated in the post I responded to that started this whole thing, a "perpetually burning city dump south of Jerusalem." Nothing from the above portion of Der Alte's post is archeological evidence for that claim.

Thus this provides no archeological evidence for Gehenna being a garbage dump. Therefore, the statement I quoted ("Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient") can hardly be considered a "snow job" despite your insistent usage of that term.
None of which refutes Jesus' own words
(Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43, 45, 47; Lk 12:5).
 
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Ceallaigh

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When Jesus talked about Gehenna he quoted Isaiah 66:24. So it seems most likely whatever Isaiah was talking about is what Jesus was talking about. I think that's what needs to be considered, rather than whether or not Gehenna was a garbage dump and this archeologist vs the other vs Jewish encyclopedias and other extrabiblical sources. Look to the Bible itself. What's the Book of Isaiah about? What's Isaiah 66 about? What's Isaiah 66:24 about? Because that's most likely what Jesus was talking about.

The thing to keep in mind is that part of what Jesus was doing was acting as a prophet on the heels of the total holocaust-like destruction of Jerusalem by Rome, the same as the OT prophets who came on the heels of the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. It's no coincidence that Jesus was born at a time when He could give warnings and national judgements to Israel within a generation (40 years) of the last final destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32
 
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JulieB67

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Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28 seems very clear to what happens to the soul.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Both death and "hell itself" are cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is the death of the soul. Death does not mean spending an eternity in hell.

I was raised to believe in an eternal hell but having read for myself these scriptures and knowing throughout most of the bible that the wages of sin is "death" I can't believe I even believed as I did once before. And many times when I hadn't even studied the complete bible for myself growing up I would wonder about it.
 
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