Dating is a sin- just be friends till your married, no need to complicate...

Dave-W

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what if God tells you to break it off courting that guy and you both marry other people, then in God's eyes you kissed another persons spouse, because God sees the end from the beginning.
By that logic; if you marry, have kids and your spouse dies, and you remarry; does that mean your first spouse had sex with someone else's spouse? aka Adultery??
 
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Not true. I was in love with my future wife before we were dating. Just because there's no physical contact doesn't mean that person isn't some one that we see differently than everyone else. The physical aspect isn't necessary to be courting. You are getting to know that person intellectually and emotionally.
I was serously crushed/in love with 3 different girls between Jr high and half way thru my college days. AFAIK, they had no clue how i felt. (#2 probably did because one of my good friends told her best friend) We never said more than "Hi How are you?" and other small talk.

THAT is what NOT DATING looks like.
 
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the current definition of courting is dating with intent to marry,
The current definition of courting is dating with permission/oversight of either the parents or the congregational leadership to hold you accountable. And it has time limits. (6 months)
 
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I was serously crushed/in love with 3 different girls between Jr high and half way thru my college days. AFAIK, they had no clue how i felt. (#2 probably did because one of my good friends told her best friend) We never said more than "Hi How are you?" and other small talk.

THAT is what NOT DATING looks like.
Oh, she knew I liked her. I had crushes from afar and this was not that. We spent a lot of time together as friends before ever dating, as men and women can do, although everyone just assumes if you are with someone, you must be dating.
 
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We spent a lot of time together as friends before ever dating, as men and women can do,
Just the 2 of you, or as part of a larger group of friends?

If it was just the 2 of you; then you were dating.
 
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So fresh on my mind but I’ve been impacted by an old relationship that wasn’t dating. I feel I have a precautionary tale to tell.

I’ve had in my life 3 girlfriends that I’ve dated. I’ve only kissed 2 of them including my wife so I’d like to tell a story.

Girlfriend number 1. We had a good rapport. I hadn’t considered the issues of dating with her. In hindsight I feel she stole my first kiss but that could come across as blaming her as I didn’t stop her. It was a physically stimulating relationship that didn’t go beyond kissing physically but I had that bad feeling in my stomach from day 1. I felt that the physical was getting in the way so at some point I asked to back off the kissing totally so I could see clearly but that sinking feeling never went away.

Now not sure about the timeline; the order of events get a bit jumbled a quarter of a century ago, but I had a girl that was a friend so not in my list of girlfriends, Let’s call her Joan (sorry to all the joans) we were best friends and we were both aware of and looking at each other towards marriage. We probably hadn’t consciously chosen a path of not dating. In the course of this I had asked her to marry me; which she declined at that time. I was broken hearted, I was losing my best friend. We had to part company as it wasn’t healthy for me any longer.

i had girlfriend number 2 in this period, lasted a few months, never kissed, always had that sinking feeling. So it didn’t last. She was heartbroken for a long time after.

A couple of years later Joan got engaged and married, I went to the wedding and I had given her up as she had made her decision, it was a melancholy experience but I was happy for her; just not for me.

Not long after I started dating my wife to be, let’s call her Fran (Sorry all you Fran’s) at some stage we broke up during the dating process. She’s an amazing lady but I couldn’t get to a place where I was confident that I had what I had experienced with. I had a decision to make. I wondered how it was that I couldn’t love her. I felt broken inside and maybe not capable of love maybe from this experience with Joan.

I don’t think we consciously think the thoughts or understand what was going on but in hindsight I wish for my wife that I was far more transparent about Joan but it was a brutal experience that I didn’t want to revisit and the door was well and truly closed to Joan.

In this breakup period I did a lot of soul searching. I resolved that I was going to ask Fran to marry me. This I did and she said yes!

So here we are a couple of decades on happily married with children life is good but I’ve never felt for my wife what I had with Joan.

Now Joan came back a couple of years after we were married and visited. I wasn’t quite sure how to take it; I just sat there like a stunned mullet. But a couple of years back she requested friendship on Facebook. I had thought about her nearly every day of my life since. I knew there was just no way that I could be friends with her. By this time my wife was aware of my proposal to Joan so to some extent the relationship was more in the light. I wasn’t prepared to tell my wife that I thought about Joan every day. (For all those reading here it’s obvious that I’ve got a stronghold functioning; I’m trying to be frank so others might learn)

The request sat there for a long time before I decided to write to her. I knew in writing that I had to trawl thru some very intense memories and I didn’t want to hurt Joan or reject her friendship lightly. I frankly told her about my stronghold and how it had affected me and I requested that she never come looking for me in friendship again. I told her that the situation was not her fault and I was happy for the fact she had found what she was looking for. The issue I had was my problem not hers.

It was a painful letter to write and now a few weeks later I’m still recovering. My wife knows about the letter and though it’s been tough it’s been good for us. I’m growing in the Lord and our marriage is stronger than ever. I will never and have never considered leaving Fran for Joan but I didn’t trust myself to any connection to Joan in any form of relationship. Even though I long to see her again I know it cannot be. I call it an uncovenanted affection that goes beyond normal friendship. If I see her in this lifetime it’s got to be Gods timing not mine.

In the post script I can see why the relationship would have been difficult for me. She was a far stronger character than me. I think of my failings with GF1 it was because I was a weak character; I could have resisted her physical advances but I didn’t. In hindsight I may have had a chance at dating Joan but for how I behaved here. We’ll never know eh.

If I had ended up with Joan I believe her stronger character would have caused me to shrink into myself. If it was today I probably would have the capacity and strength of character to stand up to her. It’s important in a relationship to test the word No on each other to see how each other deals with some confrontation.

The other hindsight that I have is I should have pursued despite her rejection of me (my own weakness of character comes into play here also) this is not to say that we shouldn’t as men understand the word no but the man needs to demonstrate his pursuit in adversity. Difficult to explain but I hope the readers will understand. I guess I needed to woo her. All this may not have changed history though. I have wondered if I had met Joan a couple of years later weather it was a timing thing but this too is unknowable.

So there you go. I asked 2 girls to marry me in my life and neither of them was I dating at the time.

My wife would say that if I had asked her to go out again she would have said no but the fact that I asked her to marry me meant that I was serious about where we were headed.
 
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createdtoworship

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If I were in the business of doing that, I wouldn't be denying myself at all.

I stated what the Bible literally says. No need to repeat myself again.


I'm fighting you because you are preaching a system that did not work for you, and that you do not know how to make work for people like me, and that has not worked when attempted in Christian community for many, many people. And one that the Bible doesn't insist on either.
Oh you misunderstood, it did not work for me because no one told me. No one came to me ahead of time and honored the scripture first and foremost and told me bluntly the truth that dating is a sin. (I have provided nearly 20 pages of replies explaining my view, I am not hiding it, nor am I embarrassed or ashamed of it). I suggest just accepting the Bible for what it says, you will find true freedom.

The generous soul will be made rich,
And he who waters will also be watered himself.
proverbs 11:25

see when we deny ourselves, God actually frees us from ourself bondage to sin.
 
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createdtoworship

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Except you have not proven the bible does say what you claim.
just read the thread, I have 20 pages of replies. I explained how dating is not found anywhere in scripture. That God does not honor either the status, or the physical aspect of dating. And at that point dating is so completely redefined, that I for one do not think it is a redeemable act. If one were to have a non physical relationship for marriage, and was not doing it for a social media status update, but really did it for marriage. At that point, my recommendation is just get married. If you are planning to stay single for years till you finish college, well then focus on school. don't focus on a relationship, it's just a distraction from your long term goal.
 
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createdtoworship

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No but you would still be preparing to marry your sister also known as incest. So for a period incest is ok according to you then magically it disappears!
While yes you are marrying your sister, it's not a close relative, so it's not incest. Leviticus law defined incest as marrying close family. And that is not what I am saying.
 
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createdtoworship

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So fresh on my mind but I’ve been impacted by an old relationship that wasn’t dating. I feel I have a precautionary tale to tell.

I’ve had in my life 3 girlfriends that I’ve dated. I’ve only kissed 2 of them including my wife so I’d like to tell a story.

Girlfriend number 1. We had a good rapport. I hadn’t considered the issues of dating with her. In hindsight I feel she stole my first kiss but that could come across as blaming her as I didn’t stop her. It was a physically stimulating relationship that didn’t go beyond kissing physically but I had that bad feeling in my stomach from day 1. I felt that the physical was getting in the way so at some point I asked to back off the kissing totally so I could see clearly but that sinking feeling never went away.

Now not sure about the timeline; the order of events get a bit jumbled a quarter of a century ago, but I had a girl that was a friend so not in my list of girlfriends, Let’s call her Joan (sorry to all the joans) we were best friends and we were both aware of and looking at each other towards marriage. We probably hadn’t consciously chosen a path of not dating. In the course of this I had asked her to marry me; which she declined at that time. I was broken hearted, I was losing my best friend. We had to part company as it wasn’t healthy for me any longer.

i had girlfriend number 2 in this period, lasted a few months, never kissed, always had that sinking feeling. So it didn’t last. She was heartbroken for a long time after.

A couple of years later Joan got engaged and married, I went to the wedding and I had given her up as she had made her decision, it was a melancholy experience but I was happy for her; just not for me.

Not long after I started dating my wife to be, let’s call her Fran (Sorry all you Fran’s) at some stage we broke up during the dating process. She’s an amazing lady but I couldn’t get to a place where I was confident that I had what I had experienced with. I had a decision to make. I wondered how it was that I couldn’t love her. I felt broken inside and maybe not capable of love maybe from this experience with Joan.

I don’t think we consciously think the thoughts or understand what was going on but in hindsight I wish for my wife that I was far more transparent about Joan but it was a brutal experience that I didn’t want to revisit and the door was well and truly closed to Joan.

In this breakup period I did a lot of soul searching. I resolved that I was going to ask Fran to marry me. This I did and she said yes!

So here we are a couple of decades on happily married with children life is good but I’ve never felt for my wife what I had with Joan.

Now Joan came back a couple of years after we were married and visited. I wasn’t quite sure how to take it; I just sat there like a stunned mullet. But a couple of years back she requested friendship on Facebook. I had thought about her nearly every day of my life since. I knew there was just no way that I could be friends with her. By this time my wife was aware of my proposal to Joan so to some extent the relationship was more in the light. I wasn’t prepared to tell my wife that I thought about Joan every day. (For all those reading here it’s obvious that I’ve got a stronghold functioning; I’m trying to be frank so others might learn)

The request sat there for a long time before I decided to write to her. I knew in writing that I had to trawl thru some very intense memories and I didn’t want to hurt Joan or reject her friendship lightly. I frankly told her about my stronghold and how it had affected me and I requested that she never come looking for me in friendship again. I told her that the situation was not her fault and I was happy for the fact she had found what she was looking for. The issue I had was my problem not hers.

It was a painful letter to write and now a few weeks later I’m still recovering. My wife knows about the letter and though it’s been tough it’s been good for us. I’m growing in the Lord and our marriage is stronger than ever. I will never and have never considered leaving Fran for Joan but I didn’t trust myself to any connection to Joan in any form of relationship. Even though I long to see her again I know it cannot be. I call it an uncovenanted affection that goes beyond normal friendship. If I see her in this lifetime it’s got to be Gods timing not mine.

In the post script I can see why the relationship would have been difficult for me. She was a far stronger character than me. I think of my failings with GF1 it was because I was a weak character; I could have resisted her physical advances but I didn’t. In hindsight I may have had a chance at dating Joan but for how I behaved here. We’ll never know eh.

If I had ended up with Joan I believe her stronger character would have caused me to shrink into myself. If it was today I probably would have the capacity and strength of character to stand up to her. It’s important in a relationship to test the word No on each other to see how each other deals with some confrontation.

The other hindsight that I have is I should have pursued despite her rejection of me (my own weakness of character comes into play here also) this is not to say that we shouldn’t as men understand the word no but the man needs to demonstrate his pursuit in adversity. Difficult to explain but I hope the readers will understand. I guess I needed to woo her. All this may not have changed history though. I have wondered if I had met Joan a couple of years later weather it was a timing thing but this too is unknowable.

So there you go. I asked 2 girls to marry me in my life and neither of them was I dating at the time.

My wife would say that if I had asked her to go out again she would have said no but the fact that I asked her to marry me meant that I was serious about where we were headed.
I love this, this is so transparent and real. I was engaged three times. I am so glad they rejected me. One of them I still have feelings for but the other two I am so glad they said no. That is what I am saying, when you are physical with someone part of your heart stays, even years later, even after several relationships later. Even after marriage to another person. You were not physical to the one you fell for, but I was. And to this day I still have feelings for her, and won't friend her on facebook. I friended everyone else but her and her husband. He was my best friend and he sort of swooped in within a week of breakup and took her. and she wanted it so I am ok with that. But being physical with multiple partners is not wise. I think some of what you are saying here attests to that.
 
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Sketcher

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Oh you misunderstood, it did not work for me because no one told me. No one came to me ahead of time and honored the scripture first and foremost and told me bluntly the truth that dating is a sin. (I have provided nearly 20 pages of replies explaining my view, I am not hiding it, nor am I embarrassed or ashamed of it). I suggest just accepting the Bible for what it says, you will find true freedom.

The generous soul will be made rich,
And he who waters will also be watered himself.
proverbs 11:25

see when we deny ourselves, God actually frees us from ourself bondage to sin.
If the Bible clearly taught that, it would have been as obvious to you in your college years as Christ rising from the grave and loving your neighbor as yourself. The fact is, it doesn't. What I believe is going on here is the tendency of many people who dated irresponsibly to overreact and go the other way at the thought of their kids dating, because they did not have a healthy context for dating back when they were dating age. And when Christians twist Scripture to confirm their suspicious or biases, they feel validated - so either you're doing that, or you were duped by someone who did. What freedom did this interpretation get you? You were already married by the time you bought into it. I can tell you that it does not bring freedom to singles, except for keeping them single.
 
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createdtoworship

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If the Bible clearly taught that, it would have been as obvious to you in your college years as Christ rising from the grave and loving your neighbor as yourself. The fact is, it doesn't. What I believe is going on here is the tendency of many people who dated irresponsibly to overreact and go the other way at the thought of their kids dating, because they did not have a healthy context for dating back when they were dating age. And when Christians twist Scripture to confirm their suspicious or biases, they feel validated - so either you're doing that, or you were duped by someone who did. What freedom did this interpretation get you? You were already married by the time you bought into it. I can tell you that it does not bring freedom to singles, except for keeping them single.
well yes and no. Did I know much truth about life as a young man in my 20's? Not really, I sort of learned on the fly. But a 20 year old will tell you they know everything! But ask that same person at 40 if they learned anything in the last 20 years, and they will say yes! So I don't agree that revelation is instantaneous. God sometimes hides revelation from some, while giving it to others. Think of it this way, the church did not understand the trinity for three hundred years, turtullian was the first to debate it. Jehovah's witnesses bank on this and say the early church fathers didn't believe it. But they did, just later. So yes revelation is progressive. But the fact that you are resorting to appeals to emotion and arrogant character assassinations of my view means you are finding this topic insulting to you personally (and that is not my purpose), but seeing your posts are somewhat heated, and emotional... I will not reply further to your posts. I can see you feel strongly about your view, and to be honest. It's not my job to convince you otherwise. If you have further questions of my views, just do a search of the thread for my posts. Take care.
 
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just read the thread, I have 20 pages of replies. I explained how dating is not found anywhere in scripture. That God does not honor either the status, or the physical aspect of dating.

What you have done is offer 20 pages of opinion backed by no evidence. I raised the Genesis story of Jacob and Rachel. He kissed he when he first saw her and was in love with her for years before they married. You have yet to reply. I quoted Zondervan’s Bible Dictionary regarding 1Timothy. You said that you had 20 sources supporting your interpretation of it, but have yet to provide any of them. If you have 20 sources please post the list. Otherwise I’m going to assume that you don’t have those 20 sources.
 
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createdtoworship

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What you have done is offer 20 pages of opinion backed by no evidence. I raised the Genesis story of Jacob and Rachel. He kissed he when he first saw her and was in love with her for years before they married. You have yet to reply. I quoted Zondervan’s Bible Dictionary regarding 1Timothy. You said that you had 20 sources supporting your interpretation of it, but have yet to provide any of them. If you have 20 sources please post the list. Otherwise I’m going to assume that you don’t have those 20 sources.
again sir I have posted verses you do not take literally. It's ok, it's not my job to convince anyone, but they must come to the conclusion that my view is the literal view. I literally believe we are to treat one another as sisters prior to marriage. And that means that we are not to grab their behind, in your case, on a nude beach, or feel them up during dating ritual. Again all of that is not in the Bible. I am proving my case that it is unbiblical with that sole verse, however this is sort of not my burden. See in saying that dating is biblical one is in dire need of actual biblical support, of which you have none. So this is where your conversation ends. You will at this point say, I never said that. But you are still fighting me on the idea that dating is a sin, which means you must believe it's biblical. Because according to 2 timothy 3:16, all things are either good or bad, biblical or unbiblical. Scripture is profitable for all means and walks of life, for every good work. If marriage is a good work, and finding a spouse is a good work, then the Bible must talk about how to do that. So therefore you must prove that dating is biblical. And again you cannot. I am not saying this to convince you, I know you won't be convinced, I post this for others, so they know your over all viewpoint.
 
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I love this, this is so transparent and real. I was engaged three times. I am so glad they rejected me. One of them I still have feelings for but the other two I am so glad they said no. That is what I am saying, when you are physical with someone part of your heart stays, even years later, even after several relationships later. Even after marriage to another person. You were not physical to the one you fell for, but I was. And to this day I still have feelings for her, and won't friend her on facebook. I friended everyone else but her and her husband. He was my best friend and he sort of swooped in within a week of breakup and took her. and she wanted it so I am ok with that. But being physical with multiple partners is not wise. I think some of what you are saying here attests to that.

I was happy as a man to have in intense relationship with a woman in the absence of the physical. Funnily enough I kissed my wife after we got engaged after she pestered me. It’s not always the bloke putting the pressure on. I had intended to wait till the day we got married.

It should be noted that I was certainly interested in the physical and have had plenty of issues with inappropriate content pre marriage. I wasn’t a prude. I did want to give dignity to the women in my life and this was a conscious choice after the girlfriend number 1.

I reckon I waited 29 years to get married. It’s no big deal to wait for someone. It’s the fact they are a real person carries weight. inappropriate content is a remote stimulus and you can hold it out there away from yourself which is part of the attraction. But there are real victims.

Key here is to not make a set of rules but to give value to everybody in your life and treat them with honour and dignity.

it’s one of the things that attracted my wife to me. And my indiscretion with gf1 turned Joan away to some extent.
 
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createdtoworship

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I was happy as a man to have in intense relationship with a woman in the absence of the physical. Funnily enough I kissed my wife after we got engaged after she pestered me. It’s not always the bloke putting the pressure on. I had intended to wait till the day we got married.

It should be noted that I was certainly interested in the physical and have had plenty of issues with inappropriate content pre marriage. I wasn’t a prude. I did want to give dignity to the women in my life and this was a conscious choice after the girlfriend number 1.

I reckon I waited 29 years to get married. It’s no big deal to wait for someone. It’s the fact they are a real person carries weight. inappropriate content is a remote stimulus and you can hold it out there away from yourself which is part of the attraction. But there are real victims.

Key here is to not make a set of rules but to give value to everybody in your life and treat them with honour and dignity.

it’s one of the things that attracted my wife to me. And my indiscretion with gf1 turned Joan away to some extent.
yes you will be shocked at the statistics of how inappropriate content can turn a relationship physical. There are some really sad stories of how adolescent girls watch inappropriate content simply to learn how to attract men when they get to be the right age. That broke my heart when I heard that, girls should never feel the need to "add spice' to a relationship. If you take the physical out till marriage, all that auto corrects.

sources:

According to recent research by the BBFC, underaged girls tend to view inappropriate content to learn what to do during sex so they can “meet the perceived [inappropriate content-inspired] expectations of boys,” despite their fear that boys consider “aggressive sexual behavior” to be “normal” because of inappropriate content.

This is sooo sad.
 
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Nig

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Anyone seen the film the intouchables. Notice that he was in a wheelchair with no ability to have physical touch but he was dictating letters to a lady friend. I think he said when you don’t have the your body you need to cultivate a different stimulation.
 
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createdtoworship

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Anyone seen the film the intouchables. Notice that he was in a wheelchair with no ability to have physical touch but he was dictating letters to a lady friend. I think he said when you don’t have the your body you need to cultivate a different stimulation.
I think if you take physical out, you come up with many more lasting ways to show love. If you do this during a friendship stage, you have a deeper love that will last the windfalls of marriage.
 
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again sir I have posted verses you do not take literally. It's ok, it's not my job to convince anyone, but they must come to the conclusion that my view is the literal view.

No, you have taken them out of context. I and others have pointed that out. I used evidence to back what I posted, you provided nothing.

I literally believe we are to treat one another as sisters prior to marriage. And that means that we are not to grab their behind, in your case, on a nude beach, or feel them up during dating ritual. Again all of that is not in the Bible.

Now you are making stuff up. My girlfriend and I have visited topless and nude beaches; as I proved in another thread there is nothing wrong with nudity. Peter fished while naked, baptisms were performed in the nude in mixed company in the early church. However, I have never grabbed a woman's behind or felt a woman up. I said that before. Perhaps you did those things--after all, you engaged in premarital sex, something I have never done.

I am proving my case that it is unbiblical with that sole verse, however this is sort of not my burden.

Burden of proof rests with the affirmative. In this thread that is you. Further I have offered evidence showing that you are taking that one verse out of context. You have provided nothing.

See in saying that dating is biblical one is in dire need of actual biblical support, of which you have none. So this is where your conversation ends.

No, I have raised Jacob and Rachel several times. You have yet to address that. Jacob kissed Rachel when he first saw her because he was in love with her.

You will at this point say, I never said that. But you are still fighting me on the idea that dating is a sin, which means you must believe it's biblical. Because according to 2 timothy 3:16, all things are either good or bad, biblical or unbiblical. Scripture is profitable for all means and walks of life, for every good work. If marriage is a good work, and finding a spouse is a good work, then the Bible must talk about how to do that. So therefore you must prove that dating is biblical. And again you cannot. I am not saying this to convince you, I know you won't be convinced, I post this for others, so they know your over all viewpoint.

Then provide evidence that supports your understanding of 1 Timothy. Provide evidence regarding Jacob and Rachel. Burden of proof rests with you and you have utterly failed to meet your burden.
 
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