Daniel's 70th week

[sovereigngrace]

Let's look at the texts involved in order to try and determine whether you might be right or not.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The first thing to note is this---wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? The keywords being 'restore again'. In order to restore again implies something someone had in the past, does not still have it presently, but is expected to have it again in the future. If we make the kingdom meaning a spiritual kingdom, the following is what we end up with per that verse.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the spiritual kingdom to Israel?

First of all, Israel can't be meaning the NT church here, unless one wants to claim the NT church needs the kingdom again restored to it, which implies the NT church was in possession of the kingdom in the past, but not still in possession of it when the disciples were asking about this here, therefore still needing it restored to them again in the future. And if we make this kingdom a spiritual kingdom that seems to make these things even more bizarre, assuming Israel being meant here is the NT church.

The main issue is not so much what did the disciples mean, it is rather: what was Jesus actually teaching here? Before and after the question the topic was expressly the coming empowerment of the spiritual kingdom of God at Pentecost.

Bible students can speculate all they want as to what was going on in the disciples’ heads. They could debate over whether they were grasping the spiritual thrust of Christ’s teaching about them being part of a spiritual renewal in Israel and further afield, or whether they anticipated the Pharisaical hope of the Messiah overthrowing the Romans and reigning on a physical throne in Jerusalem. Notwithstanding, the most important aspect of this text is not the disciples question, it is Christ’s response.

Whilst it is difficult to understand the thinking of the disciples here, what is clear is what Christ was saying before the question and what Christ said after the question. That is more important than the disciples question. This gives us context to the question. This gives us perspective on what the kingdom really looked like.

Is there anything in the 4 gospels indicating Israel, not meaning the NT church though, that show Israel was in possession of the kingdom in the past, wouldn't be in possession of it when Acts 1:6 was being fulfilled, thus needing the kingdom restored to it again in the future? I think there is maybe something like that in the 4 gospels. How about in the following.

Christ knew how narrow the understanding of the disciples were at this juncture. Of course, like most Old Testament saints, they may have had a distorted view of the Messianic reign and have thought that Christ would simply overthrow the Roman Empire, send fire down from heaven destroying all rebellion, and set up a victorious earthly reign in Jerusalem. They may have missed the spiritual thrust of the kingdom.

After all, Jesus had previously exposed the disciples limitations before Pentecost in John 16:12-13, saying, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

Regardless, the one thing we can be absolutely sure of in this text is: Christ was not ignorance of what the kingdom was. Whatever way you look at it, I don't believe there is any foundation in this simple question to prove a future millennial kingdom.

Christ was continually pointing toward Pentecost where the disciples would be empowered to see things spiritually rather than naturally. The Holy Spirit would reveal supernatural truth. Before that they were prone to comprehend things in a limited carnal sense.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

How can this not be meaning the very same kingdom in Acts 1:6? How can this not be Israel the kingdom of God is being taken away from in Matthew 21:43? How can that not mean Israel was once in possession of the kingdom, lost possession, therefore would not be in possession of during Acts 1:6, thus needing it restored again to them in the future?

It is the same! It is speaking of the spiritual favor that came with John's intro of Christ and the kingdom of God. This teaching from Christ must surely have provoked intrigue in the disciples’ minds that were gradually being drawn out of the old covenant system into the new covenant reality. It might even have had a bearing upon the question being asked in Acts 1:6. Being citizens of Israel, they probably wanted lucidity on this matter before Christ ascended to the father.

The instruction in this narrative from the Savior begs an obvious question for Premils (especially in the light of their thinking on Acts 1:6): is the teaching of Christ in Matthew 21:42-44 also speaking of a future earthly millennial kingdom? Of course, the answer is ‘no!’ This teaching is speaking about the spiritual blessing and favor that would be taken from physical Israel and the old covenant theocracy and transferred to the New Testament Church after the cross. The same disciples that asked the question reference the kingdom in Acts 1:6 would probably have witnessed this incident in the temple in Matthew 21 as He informed Israel’s leaders of the great seismic change that was occurring in their midst. Even if they didn’t have a full revelation of the gravity of this turn-around, this must have been a great talking point for both Christ’s disciples and the religious Jews.

 

[Douggg]

That is because the Israeli title is physical and carnal in your eyes. The NT tells a different story.

The NT is not calling the Kingdom of God a nation.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[sovereigngrace]

The NT is not calling the Kingdom of God a nation.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Natural designations are repeatedly shown to mean nothing in the NT. The spiritual designations that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been placed upon the Gentiles by faith. Popular Old Testament terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) that overwhelmingly described the Hebrew offspring of Abraham in the Old Testament are now employed under the new arrangement in a wider spiritual sense.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The NT is not calling the Kingdom of God a nation.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17; 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

 

[Douggg]

The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17; 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

If Jesus is not talking about the church in Ezekiel 39:21-29, then in the text who is it that he hide his face from, but have been brought back to the land of Israel, after they have borne their shame?

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[jgr]

Your claim is that the church, starting with that first generation, has become a nation. Not that the kingdom of God is a nation.

And you are combining two verses, which are unconnected. Matthew 21:43 is speaking about a future generation of Israel, the end times generation which Israel will embrace the gospel and Jesus, as indicated in Ezekiel 39:21-29 - which in those verses no way can be referring to the church.

There is not the slightest hint of a "future generation of Israel" in Matthew 21:43. There is the kingdom of God, and a nation. The kingdom was already an extant reality when Christ spoke these words. (Luke 11:20, Luke 17:21). Its bestowal upon the nation to which He referred was imminent. That nation was born in a day at Pentecost (Acts 2:41), fulfilling Isaiah's ancient prophecy (Isaiah 66:8). Peter confirms that that nation is the Holy Nation of the Church (1 Peter 2:9).

The two verses are inextricably connected, and refer to the glorious Church established by our Lord, and none else.

 

[jgr]

Let's look at the texts involved in order to try and determine whether you might be right or not.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



The first thing to note is this---wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? The keywords being 'restore again'. In order to restore again implies something someone had in the past, does not still have it presently, but is expected to have it again in the future. If we make the kingdom meaning a spiritual kingdom, the following is what we end up with per that verse.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the spiritual kingdom to Israel?

First of all, Israel can't be meaning the NT church here, unless one wants to claim the NT church needs the kingdom again restored to it, which implies the NT church was in possession of the kingdom in the past, but not still in possession of it when the disciples were asking about this here, therefore still needing it restored to them again in the future. And if we make this kingdom a spiritual kingdom that seems to make these things even more bizarre, assuming Israel being meant here is the NT church.

Is there anything in the 4 gospels indicating Israel, not meaning the NT church though, that show Israel was in possession of the kingdom in the past, wouldn't be in possession of it when Acts 1:6 was being fulfilled, thus needing the kingdom restored to it again in the future? I think there is maybe something like that in the 4 gospels. How about in the following.


Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

How can this not be meaning the very same kingdom in Acts 1:6? How can this not be Israel the kingdom of God is being taken away from in Matthew 21:43? How can that not mean Israel was once in possession of the kingdom, lost possession, therefore would not be in possession of during Acts 1:6, thus needing it restored again to them in the future?

Jesus' response to the disciples' question is instructive.


Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the final end of all things temporal.

Paul clarifies it.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter completes it.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


There is no hint of a restored Israelitic kingdom.

 

[Douggg]

There is not the slightest hint of a "future generation of Israel" in Matthew 21:43. There is the kingdom of God, and a nation. The kingdom was already an extant reality when Christ spoke these words. (Luke 11:20, Luke 17:21). Its bestowal upon the nation to which He referred was imminent. That nation was born in a day at Pentecost (Acts 2:41), fulfilling Isaiah's ancient prophecy (Isaiah 66:8). Peter confirms that that nation is the Holy Nation of the Church (1 Peter 2:9).

The two verses are inextricably connected, and refer to the glorious Church established by our Lord, and none else.

Yet, there it is, for the whole world to see. The Mt. of Olives - unsplit. Waiting for the Jews to be rescued, for them to flee harm, like their forefathers did in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah.

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[Douggg]

The Bible clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true Israel (Romans 11:17; 11:24-25 and Ephesians 2:10-19) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If Jesus is not talking about the church in Ezekiel 39:21-29, then in the text who is it that he hide his face from, but have been brought back to the land of Israel, after they have borne their shame?

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 was fulfilled with the First Advent.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus' response to the disciples' question is instructive.


Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the final end of all things temporal.

Paul clarifies it.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter completes it.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


There is no hint of a restored Israelitic kingdom.

I fully agree with you that Acts 1:7, times and seasons, refers to exctly what you indicated it does in both 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3. I will go a step further even. All of that is clearly referring to the following in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Clearly verse 36 is meaning this same time and season the Father has put in His own power. Yet, still Israel in Acts 1:6 has to be meaning someone who was in possession of the kingdom in the past, lost possession of it, therefore not still in possession of it during Acts 1:6, thus neeeding it restored to them yet again in the future. Everything else aside in Acts 1 for a moment, can you specifically address and deal with this part in particular? I want to hear your argument as to why Israel is who you take it to be in that verse, given all of the things that would have to be true about this Israel at that time, where I pointed out above.

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel 39:21-29 was fulfilled with the First Advent.

Those verses in particular are clearly meaning post the judgment of Gog and his multitude. So, your position is that this Gog and his multitude judgment was fulfilled before or during the first advent in the first century?

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

How can this judgment that the LORD had executed not be meaning the following judgment in that same chapter?

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

And how can this not be the judgment on Gog and his multitude?

And on top of that, how can Ezekiel 39:17-20 not be meaning the same judgment we see in Revelation 19?

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

How can this judgment be meaning before or during the first advent in the first century? Because it would have to if your claim about Ezekiel 39:21-29 is correct.

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 21:43 is speaking about a future generation of Israel, the end times generation which Israel will embrace the gospel and Jesus, as indicated in Ezekiel 39:21-29 - which in those verses no way can be referring to the church.

I'm not following your logic concerning Matthew 21:43. How can that verse not already be fulfilled? At the time of Acts 1:6, the text indicates Israel was not in possession of the kingdom at that particular time. In Matthew 21:43 if this same Israel is meant, clearly they are in possession of the kingdom at the time in order to have it taken away from them. Yet Acts 1:6 also indicates the kingdom will again be restored to this same Israel, the fact Jesus didn't dispute what they were asking. He simply told them it wasn't for them to know when.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Your claim is that the church, starting with that first generation, has become a nation. Not that the kingdom of God is a nation.

And you are combining two verses, which are unconnected. Matthew 21:43 is speaking about a future generation of Israel, the end times generation which Israel will embrace the gospel and Jesus, as indicated in Ezekiel 39:21-29 - which in those verses no way can be referring to the church.

They can of course but your own pretext is getting in the way. The end times or last days were the last days which were fulfilled when Jesus came to redeem Israel. The kingdom of God is a nation but it isn't now and never will be an earthly kingdom even though its members live on earth. It's king rules from heaven and its throne is in heaven.

"And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them."

They were at one time a spiritual nation. Then they demanded an earthly king.

God restored the spiritual nation at Jesus crucifixion and resurrection.

9 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear."

Peter tells the crowd of Jews that Jesus was right then their king. They had it wrong. They weren't waiting for a physical king to sit on an earthly throne. They had their king. And a remnant was saved, all that was ever said would be saved. God knew that the majority would never accept the gospel.


I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Those who obeyed the gospel and even those who obey now can enter the kingdom. You are looking into the future for something that has already happened. That you don't accept this puts you in the same category as those who rejected Christ the first time around.

 

[Douggg]

I'm not following your logic concerning Matthew 21:43. How can that verse not already be fulfilled? At the time of Acts 1:6, the text indicates Israel was not in possession of the kingdom at that particular time. In Matthew 21:43 if this same Israel is meant, clearly they are in possession of the kingdom at the time in order to have it taken away from them. Yet Acts 1:6 also indicates the kingdom will again be restored to this same Israel, the fact Jesus didn't dispute what they were asking. He simply told them it wasn't for them to know when.

That generation of Israel was offered the kingdom of God, but because they rejected Jesus to be their king, they lost out on inheriting the kingdom of God. "Taken from them" is talking about the offer to inherit it was rejected. They never at anytime had actually possessed it.

Act 1:6 about restoring the kingdom (of Israel) was in regards to Israel becoming an independent, unoccupied nation again... ruled over by their own king (not an appointee).

 

[Douggg]

Those who obeyed the gospel and even those who obey now can enter the kingdom. You are looking into the future for something that has already happened. That you don't accept this puts you in the same category as those who rejected Christ the first time around.

So you think that people who pray the Lord's prayer for His Kingdom come is in the same category as those who rejected Christ the first time around?

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.

 

[jgr]

I want to hear your argument as to why Israel is who you take it to be in that verse, given all of the things that would have to be true about this Israel at that time, where I pointed out above.

I don't fully understand your request. Can you clarify?

Old Covenant earthly political Israel possessed the Old Covenant earthly political kingdom which no longer existed, and which was the kingdom about which the disciples besought Jesus regarding its restoration.

But the Kingdom which He proclaimed was the unprecedented New Covenant Heavenly Spiritual Kingdom.

In due time the disciples came to understand, and never again posed a question about the restoration of the old covenant kingdom, whose covenant was old, decayed, and vanishing. (Hebrews 8:13).

 

[jgr]

So you think that people who pray the Lord's prayer for His Kingdom come is in the same category as those who rejected Christ the first time around?

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.

"For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen."

Expressed in the present tense 2,000 years ago. An extant kingdom. No waiting necessary.

 

[Al Touthentop]

That generation of Israel was offered the kingdom of God, but because they rejected Jesus to be their king, they lost out on inheriting the kingdom of God. "Taken from them" is talking about the offer to inherit it was rejected. They never at anytime had actually possessed it.

Just like every other person who rejected it. On the other hand, many Jews did not reject the kingdom and entered into it. There isn't going to be a second chance. It's come and anyone can enter who obeys the gospel.

Act 1:6 about restoring the kingdom (of Israel) was in regards to Israel becoming an independent, unoccupied nation again... ruled over by their own king (not an appointee).

It was never about that. This was an error in their thinking that you are embracing. That error in thinking led them to bring Christ to the Romans for crucifixion.

 

[Al Touthentop]

So you think that people who pray the Lord's prayer for His Kingdom come is in the same category as those who rejected Christ the first time around?

If they preach that Christ didn't establish that kingdom then yes, of course.

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.

Which at that time he hadn't yet been made king. Or do you also believe that he has yet to become king, thereby rejecting the new testament authors who say he has been made king and rules the kingdom right now?