Daniel's 70th week

[Al Touthentop]

"For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen."

Expressed in the present tense 2,000 years ago. An extant kingdom. No waiting necessary.

I don't think this present mood verb means anything about time but about whose authority it is as in who it belonged to at the time he was telling them to pray it.

Peter tells us that when Christ was resurrected, that was when God gave him the throne. So I do think that prayer shows us a view to the future which was at that time appropriate. I haven't looked though at the form of the Greek word 'come.' I suspect it is an infinitive.

Though, it is true also that God's kingdom, to be everlasting, had to also exist in the past. If it's eternal it stretches behind as well as ahead.

 

[jgr]

I don't think this present mood verb means anything about time but about whose authority it is as in who it belonged to at the time he was telling them to pray it.

Peter tells us that when Christ was resurrected, that was when God gave him the throne. So I do think that prayer shows us a view to the future which was at that time appropriate. I haven't looked though at the form of the Greek word 'come.' I suspect it is an infinitive.

Though, it is true also that God's kingdom, to be everlasting, had to also exist in the past. If it's eternal it stretches behind as well as ahead.

"Thine" tells us Whose Kingdom it is.

"Is...for ever and ever" tells us that it has always been eternal. (Psalms 45:6; Hebrews 1:8)

 

[Douggg]

"For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen."

Expressed in the present tense 2,000 years ago. An extant kingdom. No waiting necessary.

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven.

Not yet come to be the ruling Kingdom here on earth over the nations.

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

 

[Douggg]

Which at that time he hadn't yet been made king. Or do you also believe that he has yet to become king, thereby rejecting the new testament authors who say he has been made king and rules the kingdom right now?

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[jgr]

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven.

Not yet come to be the ruling Kingdom here on earth over the nations.

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Luke 11
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Romans 14
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

"I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

We can do this all day where you use one scripture in an attempt to negate all of the rest of the bible but I wonder why you would even want to do that except that you don't believe the whole thing is in agreement? Isn't my suspicion that you reject the gospel valid, given that you keep trying to disprove the scriptures with other scriptures?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven.

Not yet come to be the ruling Kingdom here on earth over the nations.

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Firstly, we must realise that every other request in this prayer is immediate and current in that it relates to the ‘here and now’. It is also personal and particular in that it has an intimate effect upon the actual individual making the petition. It is therefore a cohesive prayer that is totally and fully achievable in the life of the disciple making it. This prayer in full is therefore evidently answerable and realisable to the child of God in this life.

· “Give us this day our daily bread” (v11).
· “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors” (v12).
· “Lead us not into temptation” (v13).
· “Deliver us from evil” (v13).

There is no contextual warrant then to divorce “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” from the undoubted harmony and overall make-up of the rest of the prayer. Unfortunately, some premillennialists manipulate the passage to make it sound as if it reads ‘Thy kingdom come…in earth, as it is in heaven’ thus conveniently omitting or glossing over the inspired and vital words “Thy will be done” as if they are not in it. The passages reads:

· “Thy kingdom come” (v10a).
· “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” (v10b).

It is thus a harmonious interrelated petition which is fully realized in the life of the Church generally and the believer individually in which they see the will of God manifested and performed on this earth “as it is in heaven.” It is also a request to see the Kingdom of God (which is everywhere else described as a spiritual eternal kingdom) manifested in and through the believers’ life experientially. It is NOT a detached distant request to see a future temporal earthly millennial kingdom manifested after Christ’s Second Coming.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven.

Not yet come to be the ruling Kingdom here on earth over the nations.

That was communicated before Jesus had been made king.

9 Therefore God exalted him (past tense) to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord (present tense), to the glory of God the Father.

Paul says he was already exalted to the highest authority at the time of his writing. So between the time that Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer and the time that Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians, something happened. What might that have been?

 

[Al Touthentop]

"Thine" tells us Whose Kingdom it is.

"Is...for ever and ever" tells us that it has always been eternal. (Psalms 45:6; Hebrews 1:8)

Yes, so the distinction we can make is not when the kingdom "comes" I suppose but when Jesus was made the king. Prior to the father handing over his throne the kingdom was his but it obviously existed prior to that event.

 

[jgr]

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 2 describes four historical empires, the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and Roman.

The God of Heaven set up His Kingdom in the days of the Roman kings.

It shall never be destroyed, shall not be conquered by any other kingdom, shall conquer every other kingdom, and shall reign forever.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 2 describes four historical empires, the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and Roman.

The God of Heaven set up His Kingdom in the days of the Roman kings.

It shall never be destroyed, shall not be conquered by any other kingdom, shall conquer every other kingdom, and shall reign forever.

Yes, four empires that occupy Israel for the 70 weeks. The fourth one, in the end times, is the EU, which it armies will occupy Jerusalem for the 42 months of Revelation 11:2.

 

[jgr]

Yes, four empires that occupy Israel for the 70 weeks. The fourth one, in the end times, is the EU, which it armies will occupy Jerusalem for the 42 months of Revelation 11:2.

You missed the word "historical".

The Roman Empire was an historical empire.

The EU is not.

 

[Douggg]

There is no contextual warrant then to divorce “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” from the undoubted harmony and overall make-up of the rest of the prayer.

Is sin done in heaven?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The 70 weeks are finished when Jesus returns to make the kingdom of God the ruling kingdom over the nations here on earth, fulfilling Daniel 2.

 

[Douggg]

You missed the word "historical".

The Roman Empire was an historical empire.

The EU is not.

The 70th week is not historic, but end times.

 

[Douggg]

The God of Heaven set up His Kingdom in the days of the Roman kings.

No, the nations do not do God's will, because they are under Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Yes, four empires that occupy Israel for the 70 weeks. The fourth one, in the end times, is the EU, which it armies will occupy Jerusalem for the 42 months of Revelation 11:2.

The 70 weeks has long passed. If the last Empire was talking about the EU, then God was lying when he said all of this would happen in the 70 weeks "determined."

The fact that Jesus came and established the everlasting kingdom in the time that it was determined is why it is so remarkable. What you're saying is that you do not accept God's determination and are using a book which was written to Seven churches about things which would "shortly come to pass," also have not come to pass.

Do you believe anything that God says in the Bible?

 

[Al Touthentop]

No, the nations do not do God's will, because they are under Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great.

It doesn't say that the nations would do his will. It says that he would rule over them. That they don't obey is not evidence that he wasn't made king.

 

[Douggg]

The 70 weeks has long passed.

 

[Douggg]

It doesn't say that the nations would do his will. It says that he would rule over them. That they don't obey is not evidence that he wasn't made king.

The Lord's prayer is for the day the nations will do God's will, when His Kingdom comes.

 

[jgr]

The 70th week is not historic, but end times.

The 70th week is not mentioned in Daniel 2.