Daniel's 70th week

[jgr]

No, the nations do not do God's will, because they are under Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great.

The Holy Nation of the Church (1 Peter 2:9) does God's will under the leadership of His Son.

 

[Douggg]

I don't understand why you guys are so dead set and unappreciative of being blessed of living at a time in history when the blessed hope of the redemption of our bodies, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is at hand? It looks like you are fighting God every step of the way.

 

[Al Touthentop]

The 70th week is not historic, but end times.

The end times were at the end of the seventy weeks.

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

You look at the law through a veil.

Peter on the day of Pentecost told the Jews that Joel's prophecy which spoke of the 'last days' was about that very day.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only [e]the third hour of the day. 16 But this (what you are witnessing) is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

The last days were referring to the end of the old covenant. The 70th week. The completion and fulfillment of the law. If not, then we can make up any old story we want. But Peter also wrote that prophecy is of no private interpretation. So what are your credentials in overturning the apostle's thinking on this matter? Were they mistaken?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Is sin done in heaven?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The 70 weeks are finished when Jesus returns to make the kingdom of God the ruling kingdom over the nations here on earth, fulfilling Daniel 2.

It is not talking about sin. Please read it. It is talking about His will being done now. Simple, and it is!

 

[Al Touthentop]

I don't understand why you guys are so dead set and unappreciative of being blessed of living at a time in history when the blessed hope of the redemption of our bodies, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is at hand? It looks like you are fighting God every step of the way.

Because to say that we're in the 'last days' of God's prophecy is to reject God's word. Why are you so willing to reject God's word? Why would you even consider saying that God's appointed times did not happen exactly as he said they would?

 

[sovereigngrace]

The last days were referring to the end of the old covenant. The 70th week. The completion and fulfillment of the law. If not, then we can make up any old story we want. But Peter also wrote that prophecy is of no private interpretation. So what are your credentials in overturning the apostle's thinking on this matter? Were they mistaken?

No, they are not! That is false Preterist propaganda. "The last days" were talking about this current Messianic kingdom period, that finishes at "the last day" with the literal physical visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the general resurrection of the dead, and their subsequent judgment. It is only then that time finishes and we enter into eternity.

 

[Al Touthentop]

mistakenly replied to my own post

 

[jgr]

I don't understand why you guys are so dead set and unappreciative of being blessed of living at a time in history when the blessed hope of the redemption of our bodies, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is at hand? It looks like you are fighting God every step of the way.

We don't understand why you are so dead set and unappreciative of the finished work of Christ on Calvary, and the blessings of living as one of His Chosen People in His Kingdom, the Church.

Why are you fighting that reality?

 

[Al Touthentop]

No they are not! That is false Preterist propaganda. "The last days" were talking about this current Messianic kingdom period, that finishes at "the last day" with the literal physical visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the general resurrection of the dead, and their subsequent judgment.

They would be beginning days, not last days. I agree, the Last Day is the day of judgement. But Peter on the day of Pentecost said that what they were witnessing was the fulfillment of prophecy which spoke of the last days.

Furthermore, that term 'last days' does not mean the same thing in every place where it is written. There are no univocals in any language. There could be places where the last days apply to the current age, but that isn't what we're talking about here.

Last days implies that it is the end of something. The last days of the old covenant. They had a beginning. The kingdom has no beginning or end. So saying we're in the last days is kind of weird applied to our current era especially since we don't have any idea nor are we given any clues as to the end of this era other than there is a Last Day. Saying we're in the last days right now is to claim that one has some knowledge about the nearness of the present time to that last day. We have no idea. Could be tomorrow, could be 10 thousand years from now. Nobody knows.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They would be beginning days, not last days. I agree, the Last Day is the day of judgement. But Peter on the day of Pentecost said that what they were witnessing was the fulfillment of prophecy which spoke of the last days.

Furthermore, that term 'last days' does not mean the same thing in every place where it is written. There are no univocals in any language. There could be places where the last days apply to the current age, but that isn't what we're talking about here.

Last days implies that it is the end of something. The last days of the old covenant. They had a beginning. The kingdom has no beginning or end. So saying we're in the last days is kind of weird applied to our current era especially since we don't have any idea nor are we given any clues as to the end of this era other than there is a Last Day. Saying we're in the last days right now is to claim that one has some knowledge about the nearness of the present time to that last day. We have no idea. Could be tomorrow, could be 10 thousand years from now. Nobody knows.

It has been ongoing between the First Advent and the Second. Of course, Peter was there. But so are we! It is ongoing. I don't get your latter reasoning. Please enlarge. The "last day" (singular) is connected to the "last days" (plural). It is the final day of the final days.

 

[DavidPT]

I don't fully understand your request. Can you clarify?

Old Covenant earthly political Israel possessed the Old Covenant earthly political kingdom which no longer existed, and which was the kingdom about which the disciples besought Jesus regarding its restoration.

But the Kingdom which He proclaimed was the unprecedented New Covenant Heavenly Spiritual Kingdom.

In due time the disciples came to understand, and never again posed a question about the restoration of the old covenant kingdom, whose covenant was old, decayed, and vanishing. (Hebrews 8:13).

It seems to me, in Acts 1:6, the Israel meant, at the time of that verse it would not be in possession of that kingdom if it is in need of the kingdom being restored to them again in the future. Which also tells us, the Israel meant here was in possession of the kingdom at one time prior to the time of Acts 1:6. What Israel does all of that fit then? The ethnic nation of Israel, or Israel in some other sense? Let's also keep in mind, Jesus did not dispute what the disciples were asking at the time. He simply told them it wasn't for them to know the when.

 

[jgr]

2 Timothy 3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


These Scriptures describe what has existed ever since they were written, to this moment in time, and will exist until the last day.

They describe the full spectrum of the times of the last days.

 

[sovereigngrace]

2 Timothy 3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


These Scriptures describe what has existed ever since they were written, to this moment in time, and will exist until the last day.

They describe the full spectrum of the times of the last days.

Amen! Christ only recognizes two ages in His teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of the here-and-now with the glory and pristine nature of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity.

For the sake of clarity, the phrases “this world” and “the world to come” in the KJV are better interpreted “this age” and “the age to come.” The Greek word that is often interpreted “world” in this contrast is aion. But, it is not specifically speaking about the physical globe that we live on. It rather relates to: a vast period that is normally marked by what is said to occur within that period.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there is no intervening time-period or temporal age in between “this age” and “the age to come.” It is within the bounds of this juxtapose alone that we understand the whole eschatological arrangement, with its two unique diverse worlds. Johnathan Menn points out that the New Testament “gives us a clear, consistent and comprehensive eschatological interpretive structure. That structure is the ‘two ages’: … ‘this age’ and the ‘age to come’. The terminology of the two ages is the key concept for understanding biblical eschatology. A proper understanding of how this age and the age to come fit together renders biblical eschatology both understandable and coherent.”

The Greek word kairos (meaning time) is also employed in a similar context to describe the here-and-now, whilst the Greek word mello (meaning hereafter or ‘to come’) is regularly used to describe the eternal state, immediately following the second coming. Because of its contextual and consistent pointing to eternity, it is often translated “the time to come” or “the world to come.” These comparable words only serve to reinforce this recurrent New Testament contrast.

This can be seen in Romans 8:18: “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (kairos) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall (mello) be revealed in us.”

We see this same juxtapose in the New Testament between the words “now” and “then.” “Now” relates to time, and “then” relates to the future eternal state. The Greek word for “now” is arti meaning: ‘just now, this moment, now at this time, at this very time, this moment’. The Greek word nun is also used to describe the present time. The Greek word for “then” is tote meaning: ‘then’ or ‘at that time’.

This is demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 13:9-12: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then (tote) that which is in part shall be done away … For now (arti) we see through a glass, darkly; but then (tote) face to face: now (arti) I know in part; but then (tote) shall I know even as also I am known.”

These words are employed in Scripture to divide “this age” from “the age to come.”

It is important to note, ages are normally distinguished by specific and distinct characteristics which occur within them. This helps us understand what (and when) we are looking at. We should keep this in mind as we delve deeper into this subject.

Historians talk about ages in history like the stone age, the iron age and the bronze age. We also hear terms like the ice age. The description given to the said age normally gives us an insight into the period of time we are looking at.

For example:

· The Stone Age was marked by a period in which stone was widely used to make implements.
· The Bronze Age was an era characterized by the widespread use of bronze.
· The Iron Age was a stage of time when the dominant toolmaking material was iron.
· The Ice Age was said to be a time of significantly colder global temperatures that caused glacial expansion across the earth’s surface.

It is the same in Scripture! Ages normally have detail or descriptions attached to them that give us a general overall insight into their location, duration and character.

The Bible sometimes even uses the words “hour” or “day” in a general non-literal sense to describe a time, age or era. But, again, the setting and duration of that period can only be definitely identified by observing the detail that continues to occur throughout that given time-span. For example: Jesus said in John 5:25 Jesus taught: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming [Gr. hōra erchomai), and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” No one would surely insist in interpreting this as a literal 60 minutes. What is more, what is attributed to that “hour” lasts throughout the extent of the mentioned “hour” – namely spiritual resurrection. Christ here was simply saying ‘from this time forth’.

I John 2:18 describes the last days period introduced by Christ 2000 years ago, warning: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time [Gr. eschatos hōra or last hour].” It would be wrong to view this as speaking of a single hour. That is not remotely the sense or meaning. It is rather speaking about the intra-Advent period. This is a period that will continue to the coming of Christ, as other Scripture shows antichrist operating right up until the end.

A similar passage is found in Revelation 17:12, only talking about the tail-end period of antichrist. It predicts: “the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour [Gr. mia hōra] with the beast.” It would be wrong for the end-time Bible student to limit the reign of antichrist at the end to 60 minutes. But the length of the hour mentioned is very much linked to the duration of the confederacy between the beast with the ten kings. Depending upon where one is living throughout the world, we could end up sleeping through such a brief moment.

We know that the phrase “the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2) is not referring to a single 24-hour day because it describes a period of ongoing salvation. Obviously, as long as salvation is happening, the day of salvation is still active. From repeated Scripture, we know that such a period was inaugurated at the beginning of the world/age and will last until the end of the world/age. That is when salvation is concluded.

On the other hand, when we observe Martha’s statement regarding “the resurrection at the last day” (John 11:24), there are several reasons to relate that to a particular singular day, rather than some ongoing era. First, we note the ongoing distinction between “the last days” (plural), which most informed Bible student correctly relate to the intra-Advent period, and that of “the last day” (singular), relating to the end of time. Second, the detail attributed to “the last day” communicates an event rather than a protracted period – namely “the resurrection.” There is no sense in the name or description of an age of ongoing protracted resurrection. That would be patently illogical and unscriptural. Third, the occasion in view is repeatedly depicted in the Bible as a general instantaneous catching away in the twinkling of an eye. Moreover, the righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice at Christ’s climactic return (John 5:28-29). We can therefore determine that this singular day is marked by the resurrection of all the dead.

Scriptural time-references must therefore be examined thoughtfully and meticulously, noting their repeated use, the context they are used in and the specific detail attached to them. Confusion kicks in when the Bible student ignores these. We should view each text from as broad a perspective as possible; namely an objective position, rather than a narrow theological perspective, or subjective position. Mentions must be analyzed in their totality in order to get a good panoramic spiritual vantage point and to arrive at an accurate understanding of the period in view. This is necessary to achieve a safe and accurate understanding of Scripture. You would be shocked how many schools of thought fall apart on these vital basic rules of biblical hermeneutics.

 

[Al Touthentop]

It has been ongoing between the First Advent and the Second. Of course, Peter was there. But so are we! It is ongoing. I don't get your latter reasoning. Please enlarge. The "last day" (singular) is connected to the "last days" (plural). It is the final day of the final days.

The Last Day is the last day there will ever be. The word 'last' means an end. Finality. So what was spoken of in prophecy was the nearness of the end of the first covenant. Unless, we're to interpret the 'last days' as anything beyond the time the gospel was first preached. But I think the term meant something more to Jews who grew up expecting the last days and the Messiah that came with them.

We are told that the Last Day comes like a thief in the night. To say we're in the last days is to say we know we're near the Last Day. I just don't think we know that. Too many people say we're in the last days and point to prophecy that spoke of Jesus' time, saying that these prophecies speak of our time.

We're told though by the apostles to live as if the very last day were tomorrow.

Interestingly, John told those who he was addressing in his first letter that the way they knew it was "the last hour" was because the spirit of the anti-Christ was already in the world. He even disabused them of the notion that a single anti Christ had any significant meaning to a Christian. "Many anti-Christs have come," he says and then explains that anti-Christ just means somebody who denies Christ. I think John was referring to the destruction of the temple when he wrote of the last hour.

I believe pre-millinealists are Christ deniers in the worst sense because they keep looking for a Christ that was never promised while claiming to believe in him.

 

[jgr]

It seems to me, in Acts 1:6, the Israel meant, at the time of that verse it would not be in possession of that kingdom if it is in need of the kingdom being restored to them again in the future. Which also tells us, the Israel meant here was in possession of the kingdom at one time prior to the time of Acts 1:6. What Israel does all of that fit then? The ethnic nation of Israel, or Israel in some other sense? Let's also keep in mind, Jesus did not dispute what the disciples were asking at the time. He simply told them it wasn't for them to know the when.

The kingdom in the disciples' minds was that of geopolitical Israel.

Jesus' reply may seem abstruse, but the disciples "got it", and the topic never appears in Scripture again.

And His reply was utterly devoid of anything to do with a restored geopolitical Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Last Day is the last day there will ever be. The word 'last' means an end. Finality. So what was spoken of in prophecy was the nearness of the end of the first covenant. Unless, we're to interpret the 'last days' as anything beyond the time the gospel was first preached. But I think the term meant something more to Jews who grew up expecting the last days and the Messiah that came with them.

We are told that the Last Day comes like a thief in the night. To say we're in the last days is to say we know we're near the Last Day. I just don't think we know that. Too many people say we're in the last days and point to prophecy that spoke of Jesus' time, saying that these prophecies speak of our time.

We're told though by the apostles to live as if the very last day were tomorrow.

Interestingly, John told those who he was addressing in his first letter that the way they knew it was "the last hour" was because the spirit of the anti-Christ was already in the world. He even disabused them of the notion that a single anti Christ had any significant meaning to a Christian. "Many anti-Christs have come," he says and then explains that anti-Christ just means somebody who denies Christ. I think John was referring to the destruction of the temple when he wrote of the last hour.

I believe pre-millinealists are Christ deniers in the worst sense because they keep looking for a Christ that was never promised while claiming to believe in him.

So, you believe the last day is the literal physical visible future second coming of Christ and the general resurrection/catching up of all the living and the dead?

 

[Douggg]

We don't understand why you are so dead set and unappreciative of the finished work of Christ on Calvary, and the blessings of living as one of His Chosen People in His Kingdom, the Church.

Why are you fighting that reality?

Jesus's death and resurrection is the finished work of Christ by which man may be saved. For them who receive Christ, they are saved, ensured of eternal life. It is not the completion of our salvation though, which is the redemption of our bodies, the corruptible putting on incorruptible.

Which you guys are fighting God every step of the way.

No one here on earth is living in the kingdom of God, but in the world. Because Jesus has not returned yet, bringing the kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth above all other kingdoms. Which means that Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the Great must be destroyed before that happens and Satan made a terror no more.

 

[Douggg]

I believe pre-millinealists are Christ deniers in the worst sense because they keep looking for a Christ that was never promised while claiming to believe in him.

No Christian is looking for the Anti-christ for their salvation.

What Christians are supposed to be looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of Jesus to them for the rapture/resurrection.

 

[Al Touthentop]

So, you believe the last day is the literal physical visible future second coming of Christ and the general resurrection/catching up of all the living and the dead?

Yeah. Jesus said several times that the last day was both the day of resurrection and the day of judgement. And we know that when he comes back, he doesn't even come to earth. Living Christians are the last to meet him in the air after all of the dead have been resurrected. Then the judgement, and according to Paul, somewhere in there we get new physical bodies which Jesus implies will be asexual. No taking in marriage.

And the earth will be consumed with fire and a lot of people who thought he was coming to reign on earth will be disappointed. Darn. And I thought I was to get a front row seat.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yeah. Jesus said several times that the last day was both the day of resurrection and the day of judgement. And we know that when he comes back, he doesn't even come to earth. Living Christians are the last to meet him in the air after all of the dead have been resurrected. Then the judgement, and according to Paul, somewhere in there we get new physical bodies which Jesus implies will be asexual. No taking in marriage.

And the earth will be consumed with fire and a lot of people who thought he was coming to reign on earth will be disappointed. Darn. And I thought I was to get a front row seat.

So you are actually quite a mild and normal Partial Preterist compared to many on this board? Lol.