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Daniel's 70th week

pasifika

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You didn't answer the question, so here it is again.

Where does Daniel 9:27 say the abomination is in the 70th week?
It didn't say is the 70th week..but in the middle of the seven...
What do you think this "one seven" is referring to? So what 70th week you mentioned in your post #850..
The 70th week is what I called the one seven In daniel 9:27...which is the only week left of the 70 weeks prophecy...
Maybe we see different things...
 
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pasifika

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Let's try this another way.. Have ever heard of the Maccabean Revolt?

The Revolt of the Maccabees
Successful Relationshipsrevolt_of_the_maccabees

After the first three years, the Jews are able re-conquer Jerusalem. They find the Temple defiled and turned into a pagan sanctuary, where pigs are sacrificed on the altar. When they re-enter the Temple, the first thing they do is try to light a make-shift menorah (as the real gold one had been melted down by the Greeks) but only one vial of pure lamp oil with the special seal is discovered. They use this vial to light the menorah and miraculously it stays lit for eight days, by which time fr...


snip

But it is not just a war against the Greeks, it is also a civil war—Jews, who were loyal to Judaism, fighting other Jews, who had become Hellenized and who were siding with the Greeks.

The year is 167 BCE and the horrible persecution of Judaism by the Greeks is in full swing. The Greek troops show up in the town of Modi’in (a site west of Jerusalem which you can visit today off the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway) and demand that the Jews there sacrifice a pig to the Greek gods. The elder of the town, Mattathias, who is a cohen, that is of the priestly class, refuses. Even if all the nations that live under the rule of the king obey him, and have chosen to do his commandments, departing each one from the religion of his fathers, yet I and my sons and my brothers will live by the covenant of our fathers…We will not obey the king’s word by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left. (I Maccabees 2:19-22)

But there is a Hellenized Jew in the town who is willing to do what is unspeakable in Jewish eyes. As he’s about to sacrifice the pig, Mattathias stabs him, also killing the Greek official present. He then turns to the crowd and announces: “Follow me, all of you who are for God’s law and stand by the covenant.” (1 Maccabees 2:27)

Those who join Mattathias and his five sons—named Yohanan, Shimon, Judah, Eleazar, Yonaton—head for the hills, expecting that the Greeks are going to come back and wipe out the whole village as a reprisal. In the hills, they organize a guerilla army, led primarily by the oldest of the sons named Judah, nicknamed Maccabee, which means “the Hammer.” Maccabee is also an acronym for mi komocho ba’alim Hashem, “who is like you among the powers O God,”—the battle cry of the Jewish people.

We don’t know exactly how large this Maccabee army was, but even the most optimistic estimates put the number at no more than 12,000 men. This tiny force takes on the fighting Greek army of up to 40,000 men.

It’s not just a numerical superiority the Greeks have. The Greeks are professional soldiers—they have equipment, they have training, and they have a herd of war elephants, which were the tanks of the ancient world. The Jews are vastly outnumbered, poorly trained, and poorly equipped (not to mention, they have no elephants), but what they lack in training and equipment they make up in spirit.

Most of the battles take place in the foothills leading from the coastal plain area (Tel Aviv) to Jerusalem. The Greeks are trying to march their armies up the natural canyons that lead into the mountain areas, the stronghold of the Jewish army. There’s only a few places where the Greeks can ascend and this is where the Maccabees choose to take them on.

Now when we read the story of the Maccabees it seems like it’s something that takes place over a few weeks—the battles take place, the Jews win, and the Greeks go home. But, in fact, it takes 25 years of fighting and a great many casualties on both sides until the Selucid Greeks finally reach a peace agreement with the Jews.

continued

The Revolt of the Maccabees
The maccabeess revolt is before Jesus was born....Daniel 9:27 comes after Jesus death...future
 
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summerville

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The maccabeess revolt is before Jesus was born....Daniel 9:27 comes after Jesus death...future

Daniel 9:27 is about Antiochus, not Jesus.

I have been following your posts and I can see why you are stuck in a loop. You should study Daniel and then about the Maccabees. For starters, Daniel isn't a prophet.. He is living thru the oppression and the Abomination of Desolation of Antiochus IV (God manifest).

Daniel and the book of Maccabees Dan 8:8-14 The male goat (Alexander the Great) then became extremely strong; but when it was strong, the big horn was broken; and in its place arose what appeared to be four horns in the directions of the four winds
Daniel and the book of Maccabees
www.tabernacleofdavidministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Chanukah-and-the-End-Tim…
 
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pasifika

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Daniel 9:27 is about Antiochus, not Jesus.

I have been following your posts and I can see why you are stuck in a loop. You should study Daniel and then about the Maccabees. For starters, Daniel isn't a prophet.. He is living thru the oppression and the Abomination of Desolation of Antiochus IV (God manifest).

Daniel and the book of Maccabees Dan 8:8-14 The male goat (Alexander the Great) then became extremely strong; but when it was strong, the big horn was broken; and in its place arose what appeared to be four horns in the directions of the four winds
Daniel and the book of Maccabees
www.tabernacleofdavidministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Chanukah-and-the-End-Tim…
I didn't say Daniel 9:27 is Jesus..I said Daniel 9:27 comes after Jesus Death...
 
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summerville

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I didn't say Daniel 9:27 is Jesus..I said Daniel 9:27 comes after Jesus Death...

Nope. Daniel 9:27 was written in 167 BC.


The Revolt of the Maccabees

The Maccabean Revolt lasted about 20 years.

The rededication of the Temple does not end the fight however. A Greek garrison remained stationed in Jerusalem in the Acra fortress and the Greek armies besiege Jerusalem and attempt to re-conquer the City. Many more battles will be fought before the conflict finally ends

It’s not until 142 BCE, during the reign of Seleucid monarch Demitrius, that the Greeks finally have enough of the fighting and sign a peace treaty with Simon, the last survivor of the five sons of Mattathias. (In 162 BCE-Eleazar falls in battle: thrusting a spear into the belly of war elephant on which he thought the king was riding, the elephant falls on him crushing him death. Yehuda is killed at the battle of Elasa in 161 BCE and Jonathan falls in battle in 142 BCE.)
 
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jgr

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It didn't say is the 70th week..but in the middle of the seven...
What do you think this "one seven" is referring to? So what 70th week you mentioned in your post #850..
The 70th week is what I called the one seven In daniel 9:27...which is the only week left of the 70 weeks prophecy...
Maybe we see different things...

It doesn't say it is in the middle of the seven.

It doesn't give the date of when it is.

But we see the fulfillments matching Daniel's (and Jesus') descriptions, in 70 AD.
 
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pasifika

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It doesn't say it is in the middle of the seven.

It doesn't give the date of when it is.

But we see the fulfillments matching Daniel's (and Jesus') descriptions, in 70 AD.
Okay..let look again...Daniel 9:27..He will confirm a covenant for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up the Abomination that causes desolation...

If you said that the abomination in Daniel 9:27 doesn't happen in the middle of the seven or week... well I see it happened in the middle of the seven.,.which is the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy...
The sentence is continuous if you read the last part of the verse 27...

Is the "He" in daniel 9:27 refers to same individual or different individuals?
 
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summerville

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Okay..let look again...Daniel 9:27..He will confirm a covenant for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up the Abomination that causes desolation...

If you said that the abomination in Daniel 9:27 doesn't happen in the middle of the seven or week... well I see it happened in the middle of the seven.,.which is the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy...
The sentence is continuous if you read the last part of the verse 27...

Is the "He" in daniel 9:27 refers to same individual or different individuals?

"He" in Daniel 9:27 is Antiochus IV.. He defiled the Temple and persecuted the Jews.
 
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summerville

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Okay, can you show your time line for Daniel 9.." 70 weeks prophecy " please

That would be very difficult since Scofield is so much a part of Protestantism.

This is a reference to Titus.

"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"
 
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DavidPT

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You didn't answer the question, so here it is again.

Where does Daniel 9:27 say the abomination is in the 70th week?


Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

Do you agree or disagree that this portion only involves 69 weeks? IOW, it doesn't involve anything before the 69 weeks nor anything after the 69 weeks? Assuming you agree, the same should be true of the following, in a similar manner.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It stands to reason that if what I quoted from Daniel 9:25-26, that this portion doesn't involve anything outside of the first 69 weeks, the same should be true of verse 27 in like manner, it doesn't involve anything before the 70th week nor after the 70th week. Everything in this verse occurs within the 70th week. And the fact it does, that's how I can know without a doubt that I'm interpreting verse 27 correctly and that some of the rest of you are not. Your interpretations couldn't possibly work if all of verse 27 occurs within the 70th week. The way some of you try and get around this, you deny that everything in verse 27 occurs within the 70th week.

Let me bring up the following again since no one bothered to respond to it when I posted it earlier.

This is from post #834.



Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

The text indicates he shall make 'it' desolate. Make what desolate? What is the nearest antecedent? Is it not this---the sacrifice and the oblation? Or it this instead---the covenant?

It has to be one or the other since that is the only two choices for the nearest antecedent in this particular verse.

Which then brings up another point, meaning those interpretations which see 2 periods of time in verse 27, where the latter period is not even part of the 70th week.

1st period of time---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--thus within the 70th week.

2nd period of time---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---thus outside of the 70th week according to these particular interpretations.



and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate---that this is meaning outside of the 70th week according to some interpretations, yet according to the text it is the following that is being made desolate---the sacrifice and the oblation. How is one to make sense of an interpretation such as that? The only way to make sense of the text in verse 27, all of the text has to be meaning during the 70th week. Now we can make sense of why the sacrifice and the oblation is the nearest antecedent of what is being made desolate. Yet we can't make sense of the text in verse 27 if any of the pronouns are meaning Christ, though. Or at least I can't.

And another point that needs to be stressed. There are not two actors in verse 27, there is only one. The same one that confirms the covenant is the same one that causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and is the same one for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. How one can think Christ fits all of this is beyond belief?
 
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summerville

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Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

Do you agree or disagree that this portion only involves 69 weeks? IOW, it doesn't involve anything before the 69 weeks nor anything after the 69 weeks? Assuming you agree, the same should be true of the following, in a similar manner.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It stands to reason that if what I quoted from Daniel 9:25-26, that this portion doesn't involve anything outside of the first 69 weeks, the same should be true of verse 27 in like manner, it doesn't involve anything before the 70th week nor after the 70th week. Everything in this verse occurs within the 70th week. And the fact it does, that's how I can know without a doubt that I'm interpreting verse 27 correctly and that some of the rest of you are not. Your interpretations couldn't possibly work if all of verse 27 occurs within the 70th week. The way some of you try and get around this, you deny that everything in verse 27 occurs within the 70th week.

Let me bring up the following again since no one bothered to respond to it when I posted it earlier.

This is from post #834.



Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

The text indicates he shall make 'it' desolate. Make what desolate? What is the nearest antecedent? Is it not this---the sacrifice and the oblation? Or it this instead---the covenant?

It has to be one or the other since that is the only two choices for the nearest antecedent in this particular verse.

Which then brings up another point, meaning those interpretations which see 2 periods of time in verse 27, where the latter period is not even part of the 70th week.

1st period of time---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--thus within the 70th week.

2nd period of time---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---thus outside of the 70th week according to these particular interpretations.



and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate---that this is meaning outside of the 70th week according to some interpretations, yet according to the text it is the following that is being made desolate---the sacrifice and the oblation. How is one to make sense of an interpretation such as that? The only way to make sense of the text in verse 27, all of the text has to be meaning during the 70th week. Now we can make sense of why the sacrifice and the oblation is the nearest antecedent of what is being made desolate. Yet we can't make sense of the text in verse 27 if any of the pronouns are meaning Christ, though. Or at least I can't.

And another point that needs to be stressed. There are not two actors in verse 27, there is only one. The same one that confirms the covenant is the same one that causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and is the same one for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. How one can think Christ fits all of this is beyond belief?

Oh dear, the Temple was rebuilt after the Babylonian exile. They tried to build the third Temple under emperor Julius but it was felled by fire and earthquake.

Revelation 21:22

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple
 
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DavidPT

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Oh dear, the Temple was rebuilt after the Babylonian exile. They tried to build the third Temple under emperor Julius but it was felled by fire and earthquake.

Revelation 21:22

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple


Could you clue me in as to how this relates to what I posted? I'm failing to see your point, unfortunately.
 
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DavidPT

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If I take Revelation at face value, there won't be another temple.


I think I see where you are coming from now. And the fact I place the 70th week at the end of this age, you likely assume I think there will be a rebuilt temple then, in order to fulfill verse 27. Clearly there are some that believe exactly that, but I'm not one of them. IOW, I'm not taking anything in verse 27 in the literal sense where it might involve a literal temple. I can see taking issue with interpretations involving a rebuilt temple to fulfill this, since I see that idea as preposterous myself. But since the way I choose to interpret some of this, it doesn't require a temple needing to be rebuilt in order to fulfill the 70th week in the end of the age like some other interpretations require a rebuilt temple.
 
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DavidPT

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If I take Revelation at face value, there won't be another temple.


For the record, IMO, the last half of the 70th week involves the following in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for one, and that I don't take the temple mentioned in that verse in the literal sense either. Yet I place the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in the end of this age, as do many Amils as well, except I'm Premil. None of these Amils I'm referring to think 2 Thessalonians 2:4 involves a literal temple either, in order for this to be fulfilled in the future, and neither do I. You would think there should at least be an Amil somewhere on this planet that is on the same page with me in regards to the 2nd half of the 70th week.
Maybe there is, maybe just not on this board?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 
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summerville

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I think I see where you are coming from now. And the fact I place the 70th week at the end of this age, you likely assume I think there will be a rebuilt temple then, in order to fulfill verse 27. Clearly there are some that believe exactly that, but I'm not one of them. IOW, I'm not taking anything in verse 27 in the literal sense where it might involve a literal temple. I can see taking issue with interpretations involving a rebuilt temple to fulfill this, since I see that idea as preposterous myself. But since the way I choose to interpret some of this, it doesn't require a temple needing to be rebuilt in order to fulfill the 70th week in the end of the age like some other interpretations require a rebuilt temple.

Counting weeks just throws me for a loop. Even after the destruction of the Temple, Judea was a hot mess. The Galileans, Idumean, and Zealots just ran amok.

They were raiding the countryside and killing farmers. It was the Zealots and the Idumeans who trampled Jerusalem for 3.5 years (42 months). They were the Gentiles spoken of in Revelation 11:1-2.

During the Great Revolt these Zealots destroyed food supplies and fire wood to force the people of Jerusalem to fight the Romans, and ended up setting fire to the temple and destroying it, while general Titus watched on in horror and dismay.

“During the Great Rebellion (66-70 CE) the Galileans and Idumeans were the most adamant fighters against Rome; they fought the Romans to the death when many Judeans were ready to accept peace terms.”

In early 68 AD Jesus ben Gamala, one of the former high priests, gave a speech in which he described what was happening to Jerusalem because of the Zealots:

“And this place, which is adored by the habitable world, and honored by such as only know it by report, as far as the ends of the earth, is trampled upon by these wild beasts born among ourselves” (Wars 4.4.3).
 
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DavidPT

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Counting weeks just throws me for a loop. Even after the destruction of the Temple, Judea was a hot mess. The Galileans, Idumean, and Zealots just ran amok.

They were raiding the countryside and killing farmers. It was the Zealots and the Idumeans who trampled Jerusalem for 3.5 years (42 months). They were the Gentiles spoken of in Revelation 11:1-2.

During the Great Revolt these Zealots destroyed food supplies and fire wood to force the people of Jerusalem to fight the Romans, and ended up setting fire to the temple and destroying it, while general Titus watched on in horror and dismay.

“During the Great Rebellion (66-70 CE) the Galileans and Idumeans were the most adamant fighters against Rome; they fought the Romans to the death when many Judeans were ready to accept peace terms.”

In early 68 AD Jesus ben Gamala, one of the former high priests, gave a speech in which he described what was happening to Jerusalem because of the Zealots:

“And this place, which is adored by the habitable world, and honored by such as only know it by report, as far as the ends of the earth, is trampled upon by these wild beasts born among ourselves” (Wars 4.4.3).

As to Daniel 9:27, regardless when one thinks that was fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled, what are your thoughts on that verse in general? Do you at least agree with me that everything mentioned in that verse is fulfilled within that same week?
 
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jgr

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Okay..let look again...Daniel 9:27..He will confirm a covenant for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up the Abomination that causes desolation...

If you said that the abomination in Daniel 9:27 doesn't happen in the middle of the seven or week... well I see it happened in the middle of the seven.,.which is the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy...
The sentence is continuous if you read the last part of the verse 27...

Is the "He" in daniel 9:27 refers to same individual or different individuals?

The NIV that you're using is frequently translationally inaccurate. Only it and two other of the about fifty English versions translate as "...he will set up..."

The best version for literal translation accuracy is the YLT:

"And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one."

By the wing of abominations (the Roman armies) he (Messiah) is making desolate.

Messiah used the Roman armies to desolate Jerusalem, and accomplish His purposes.

As I've been explaining.
 
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