Daniel's 70th week

[sovereigngrace]

I'm not certain how all other Premils might reason this, but I tend to reason it is like such. During the thousand years saints are co ruling with Christ over the earth with a rod of iron. When satan is loosed, the ruling with a rod of iron period ceases in order to test those that have been ruled over during the thousand years. So it's not that saints and Christ quit reigning altogether, it's that they quit reigning in this particular sense.

Per Amil, such as the position you hold, the first resurrection causes conflicts with satan's little season if the first resurrection is an ongoing event rather than a one time event, and that it is still ongoing after the thousand years expire. How can anyone possibly have part in the first resurrection, after the thousand years, if to have part in the first resurrection means to live and reign with Christ during the thousand years prior to satan being loosed a little season?

While Premils portray their millennial kingdom as pristine and victorious, all of the bondage of corruption continues unabated and actually multiplies at the end. The wicked and wickedness persist. Sin, hatred, strife, decay, sickness, death, funerals, rebellion and war continues and increases.

Your post reinforces what I have always believed: your kingdom is a carnal sinful debacle that sees the wicked overrun your alleged age (as the sand of the sea) of bliss and splendour. The Premil new earth has Christ reigning as a tyrannical dictator forcing the nations to believe on Him and go to Jerusalem to watch the amazing spectacle of slaughtering countless innocent animals to cover men's sins in a pointless debacle for fear of being walloped with an iron rod. I mean: honestly??? So much for the peace they portray. Their millennial earth is a dangerous place for lambs, goats and bulls who are particular targeted for wide-scale slaughter. The reality is: the Millennium is saturated in the deceived & deception. I am so glad this age will NEVER happen.

Deception is rampant in the Premil millennium because there are countless people that reject Christ in their heart and are forced to give feigned worship in Jerusalem to Christ or they will be swiped with His rod of iron? The Premil millennium is a sham.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ended in 'the last days.' Yet the grace period of 40 years was understood by Paul because prior to the destruction of Jerusalem he wrote that Jesus spoke to that generation in 'these last days.' Then he goes on to say that the old covenant was demolished and that it was 'ready to vanish away' referring to the final destruction of the temple as Jesus prophesied in Matt. 24.

Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world. It's about the end of Jerusalem and the end of the age spoken of in prophecy. If there were still days after that destruction, they were new days, not 'last days.'

We are not still in those last days. If we are, then the prophecies were superfluous and vague and not dealing with a specific time frame. We could still apply them to today. But they were not vague. Daniel's especially dealt with a very specific 490 years which also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem as a consequence of Israel's rejection of Messiah the Prince.

When Jesus answered the apostle's questions, which asked specifically about the end of the age, he answered them and said that ALL of what he had told them would take place before 'this generation' passed. It wasn't a prophecy about the end of the world. It was about him coming on the clouds in judgement against Jerusalem. That's what ended that age, the exact question his disciples asked him.

So, you believe we are now living in "the age to come"?

 

[pasifika]

That's actually my point. He forgave our sin then - even though we weren't around to confess our sin at the time (I believe, anyway).

Thank you your answer.

 

[pasifika]

Paul gave that warning PRIOR to the Day of the Lord. Notice a characteristic that's included in the Day of the Lord (are we NOT "gathered together to Him"....."reconciled to Him" already?):

v. 1 ~ and our being gathered together to Him​

Hello,the day of the Lord begins after the; rebellion occurs and the man of sin is revealed the man doomed to destruction (this is reference to antichrist) or Daniel 9:27...

2Thessalonians 2:4...." He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God....

Jesus also mentioned this event in Matthew 24:15

 

[pasifika]

I don't believe that people themselves can: finish their own transgression, put an end to their sin, atone for their own wickedness, bring everlasting righteousness on themselves, fulfill the words of the law and prophets themselves that are actually about Christ, nor be responsible for anointing the most Holy (not holy place, which is not found in the original language).

If people are responsible for doing that themselves, then the gospel is not good news.

I believe all 6 points were fulfilled by Christ, thus because the church is one flesh with Christ, as a husband and wife are one flesh, then they are fulfilled for those in His body.

Hello, I agree that Christ fulfilled all things even the 6 points mentioned in Daniel 9:24...But, still all things must also to be fulfilled in His people, otherwise He is the only one saved...

 

[mkgal1]

Hello,the day of the Lord begins after the; rebellion occurs and the man of sin is revealed the man doomed to destruction (this is reference to antichrist) or Daniel 9:27...

2Thessalonians 2:4...." He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God....

Correct - and this man was someone that Paul (and his followers) knew of.....in THEIR time. Paul had even promised his followers that they would receive relief from their persecution in the tribulation to those that troubled THEM (this isn't written to US):

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 ~ And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.​

....and that THEY would receive rest “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” . ~ II Thessalonians 2 and the Man of Lawlessness

2 Thessalonians 1:7 ~ And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us [Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy] when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels​

Jesus also mentioned this event in Matthew 24:15

Matthew 24:15-16 ~ “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention) then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.​

 

[Al Touthentop]

Not so! Your failure to address these passages, and the clear climatic correlation between them, is proof that your position is untenable.

It is absolutely so.

Your one fault here is in making the Olivette discourse about the last day. It isn't about Christ's second coming and you fail to accept that.

Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Now, you want this to be about the last day but that isn't what they asked and it is clear from other passages that they were quite clear on what was the last day and what would happen on that day. Look at what Martha says:

John 11
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

So, they weren't asking about the last day and he didn't answer their question when the end of the age would occur (a term they understood from prophecy) by relating events long in the future that were unrelated to their question.

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved (from what?). 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

So the 'end' is the end of the age that they asked about. And he's talking to his apostles and disciples and he's directing the 'what's going to happen first' directly to them, not to a general audience reading later. And he says that the end will come after the gospel has been preached to every nation. And there are some who will say, 'See! the gospel hasn't been preached to every nation! This can't yet be fultilled!' But those who do so are wrong.

Paul tells us:

Colossians 1
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

So at the time of his writing of this letter, we see that part of Jesus' prophecy has already been fulfilled. The gospel had been preached to every nation. Now the 'end' that Jesus spoke of could at any time occur. And some of his disciples had already been hated, persecuted and killed at the hand of the leaders of Israel. Saul was holding their garments as they stoned Stephen.


Matthew 24
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

You can't possibly think that this would be a valid instruction to his disciples if he's talking about the resurrection. We know that at the resurrection the earth is destroyed by fire as Peter tells us. There is no way to reconcile an instruction to run to the hills as remotely rational if this is the last day he's talking about. He's not talking about the last day obviously. He's talking about the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans.

In fact, were he talking about the last day, it would be ridiculous to run to the hills. Those who are alive are the second batch of people to be caught up in the clouds with Christ. Living Christians on the last day will 'in a moment' be ascended to meet Christ in the air.

1 Thessalonians

17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

What a stupid instruction indeed, to flee to the hills, if Jesus were talking of the last day. But Jesus isn't stupid and doesn't give superfluous instructions.

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus uses figurative language here and he says that these things will be occurring immediately after the tribulation of the days he's talking about, not a period of time 2,000 years or 10,000 years later. You read this as the day of the resurrection, but so far we can see it isn't about the last day at all. It would be easy to read this as being so were it not for his instruction that this was going to happen right after they see their chance to get out of Jerusalem. It's not easy to read this and accept that it isn't talking about the last day because it is so grandiose sounding. But all prophecy was like this. John the Baptist didn't come excavating mountains but the prophecy about him sure sounds like that's what he'll be doing when he arrives. Do we therefore conclude that since he didn't literally bulldoze mountains and fill up valleys with dirt that he didn't really fulfill prophecy? Of course not.

Matthew 24
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

So after describing his 'coming on the clouds' he says that everything he's said will happen is going to happen within this current generation.

That means all of it. Not just some and we can expect the rest to happen later. The 'great tribulation' is often referenced here as if it is yet to come. But it isn't yet to come. Read Josephus if you think what the residents of Jerusalem went through wasn't one of the greatest, if not the greatest tribulation suffered by a population. Over a million were killed by the sword and many resorted to cannibalism because they were starving due to the siege. The Siccari ran rampant throughout the city and murdered people in the temple's Holy of Holy's. What the Romans did in the temple was equally abominable. But then so were the sacrifices offered by the no-longer authoritative priests. The temple no longer had any spiritual role and those who used it to offer sacrifices to God were doing so in complete opposition to God's plan.

And church tradition is that not a single Christian was lost. As Jesus warned, they listened and the angels gathered them from the 'four corners of the earth' and got them out of Jerusalem before it was destroyed.

Finally there's this:

Matthew 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

He's relating the certainty of his words coming to pass here. He's NOT saying that he's talking about the earth passing away as part of the prophecy but the surety of his words. Were he at all talking about the last day, not only would he have included a mention of the resurrection - he almost always did when mentioning the last day - he wouldn't have counseled that they run into the hills above the city.

His instruction that they flee to the hills excludes any notion that he's talking about the day of judgement, it limits the context of what was being foretold to the immediate future and it also explicitly limits the audience to the very people he was addressing by using the personal pronoun 'you.'

He answered their question about the end of the age and told them it would happen before the generation to which they belonged would pass.

One last thing on how we ought to pay attention to Jesus's words. He is often misinterpreted through callous reading and John gives us a great illustration about how inattentive people can be and how it is a great detriment to understanding.

John 21
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”

In a subtle way, John tells us how carefully we have to listen to Jesus words. The Olivette discourse and it's modern interpretation is a perfect parallel to how people even back then would fail to pay attention to his words. Doing so always results in erroneous conclusions.

I'm not going to argue this further with you. It's up to you to accept the scriptures as written, not me to endlessly argue with you over this. You and I agree on many, many things. So I would appreciate it if you would not respond to this post with endless 'rebuttals' which include points we aren't arguing about.

My belief that Matthew 24 is only talking about AD 70 does not prevent me from believing that all old testament prophecy was fulfilled in Christ and I'd appreciate it if you would not assert that I am rejecting that since I never have.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I agree that the great tribulation was historic. But Preterists make the same mistake as Futurists with Matthew 24, and parallel passages. To sustain their theory they have to (1) ignore the two distinct questions the disciples asked re two distinct events at the beginning of Matthew 24, (2) merge the 2 distinct events; (3) ignore the whole overall context of Matthew 23 & 24.

I don't know what a preterist is. But I do know you are very loose in your exegesis and are not at all inclined to look closer at a passage that you've already decided upon its meaning as if it is pure fact.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't know what a preterist is. But I do know you are very loose in your exegesis and are not at all inclined to look closer at a passage that you've already decided upon its meaning as if it is pure fact.

So, you believe we are now living in "the age to come"?

 

[Al Touthentop]

So, you believe we are now living in "the age to come"?

Yes. How could we not be when the age ended as prophesied by old testament prophets and Jesus himself?

This isn't the age after the last day obviously. That age is the one where we all reside with God in the 'new Jerusalem.'

We're in 'an' age between the end of the old covenant and the last day.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes. How could we not be when the age ended as prophesied by old testament prophets and Jesus himself?

This isn't the age after the last day obviously. That age is the one where we all reside with God in the 'new Jerusalem.'

We're in 'an' age between the end of the old covenant and the last day.

1. So, you believe in 3 ages - this age, the age to come, the age to come after the age to come?

2. So, has corruption ended? Has sin ended? Has death ended? Has marriage ended? Has the curse ended? Has Jesus wiped away all tears?

 

[mkgal1]

How could we not be when the age ended as prophesied by old testament prophets and Jesus himself?

I agree.

Jesus said this in His Olivet Discourse:

Luke 21:22 - For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.​

Quoting from linked article: Written where? The Old Testament. This is the “great and terrible day of the Lord” which had long been prophesied in the Scriptures, which cannot be another time in history, other than the time in which Jesus is speaking of!

The book of Malachi speaks of the coming of the Lord to his people, and the messenger which he will send first (Mal 3:1), which will lead up to God bringing judgement on the nation (Mal 3:5). The book ends with a prophetic statement about this “Day” which says more explicitly that God will send “Elijah” to his people before the judgement comes.

The prophet Joel also spoke of this “Day” and that this meant it was the “last days” - a fact which Peter confirms in his famous sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2).

Joel 2:31 says that “[t]he sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.” Peter ties this prophecy to the Pentecost event when the Holy Spirit was poured out on them, by telling the people watching that “this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16) and then goes on to quote the rest of Joel’s prophecy, beginning with “In the last days…” and ending with the Day of the Lord.

These signs in Joel about the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood etc, is the same imagery which Jesus uses in his Olivet Discourse with his disciples (cf. Mark 13:24,25; Matt 24:25; Luke 21:25), so we can see that all of these prophetic statements are linked together as one event.

Rest of article:
https://www.thatancientfaith.uk/home/perma/1449141500/article/the-coming-of-jesus-the-olive.html

 

[Al Touthentop]

1. So, you believe in 3 ages - this age, the age to come, the age to come after the age to come?

Paul wrote that there were ages (plural) to come. Clearly I'm in line with at least one of the apostles in thinking this.

2. So, has corruption ended? Has sin ended? Has death ended? Has marriage ended? Has the curse ended? Has Jesus wiped away all tears?

Jesus specifically said that marriage would cease to be an institution 'at the resurrection.'

Corruption ends after the last day as Paul tells us because there are no more fleshly bodies as we will have put on the incorrupt bodies we can expect after the resurrection.

So do you think I am daft? Is this an attempt at a personal insult? Why would I think the resurrection has already occurred when I have clearly already said to you that the day of judgement and the resurrection (the same day) is in the future?

Is this a just a snarky way of you ignoring Matthew 24's true meaning? I laid it out for you and you're just going to whistle past Jesus' words and then accuse me of thinking the resurrection has already occurred?

 

[mkgal1]

Another passage - written AFTER the Cross yet before 70 AD - that speaks of "rulers of this age passing away":

1Corinthians 2:6-8 ~ Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;​

 

[claninja]

Hello, I agree that Christ fulfilled all things even the 6 points mentioned in Daniel 9:24...But, still all things must also to be fulfilled in His people, otherwise He is the only one saved...

So you don't believe Christ has yet redeemed His people from the sins committed under the old covenant? Scripture disagrees with you then. Christ did redeem his people

Hebrews 9:15 now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

You don't believe Christ has yet put away sin for His people? Scripture disagrees with you then. Christ did put away sin through his sacrifice.

Hebrews 9:26 . But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

You don't believe Christ atoned for the sins of his people yet? Scripture disagree with you then. Christ did atone for the sins of his people

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

You don't believe Christ has brought in everlasting righteousness for his people? Scripture disagrees with you then. All the righteous requirements of God are now fulfilled in His people through Christ.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

You don't believe Christ sealed up vision and prophecy? Scripture disagrees with you then. Christ fulfilled everything about him in the law, prophets, and psalms

Luke 24:44 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms

You don't believe Christ is the most Holy that was annointed? Scripture disagree with you. Christ is the most Holy that was anointed.

Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power

Each of 6 points is fulfilled in His people, because of His awesome works. That is the gospel. That is good news. What good news are you preaching if these have not yet been fulfilled in those who are in Christ?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Paul wrote that there were ages (plural) to come. Clearly I'm in line with at least one of the apostles in thinking this.



Jesus specifically said that marriage would cease to be an institution 'at the resurrection.'

Corruption ends after the last day as Paul tells us because there are no more fleshly bodies as we will have put on the incorrupt bodies we can expect after the resurrection.

So do you think I am daft? Is this an attempt at a personal insult? Why would I think the resurrection has already occurred when I have clearly already said to you that the day of judgement and the resurrection (the same day) is in the future?

Is this a just a snarky way of you ignoring Matthew 24's true meaning? I laid it out for you and you're just going to whistle past Jesus' words and then accuse me of thinking the resurrection has already occurred?

I'm not sure why you are so defensive. I'm just trying to highlight some of the issues why I believe your position is untenable. You should at least try and address these without attacking the messenger.

Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Luke adds more meat on the bones compared to what Matthew shares in his parallel account. Luke shows Christ rebuking the cunningness of the Sadducees and their attempt to deny a future physical resurrection at His return. In doing this, he also rebukes modern day Preterists, who likewise argue that the resurrection occurred in the past, in AD70.

It is impossible to miss the constant comparison between “this world” and “that world” or “this age” and “that age.” Those who live in this current evil age are described as “the children of this age” but those who are depicted as being “worthy to obtain that age” to come are described exclusively as “the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” and as being “equal unto the angels.” One must be suitably qualified in order inherit the new world to come. Those that are worthy to obtain that age are not mortals and not sinners; they are rather glorified saints – who incidentally never marry or die.

Let us pause for a moment and consider what is being said here: people marry right up until the second coming, but in the age to come they don’t marry because the saints of God will be adorned with their new glorified eternal bodies. What is more: Christ shows that people die right up until the second coming but in the age to come they don’t die. Why? Because sin, sinners and the wicked are not welcome on the new glorified perfected earth that Christ introduces at the second coming. This is not the case with the Premillennial and Preterist age to come; marriage, divorce, funerals and mourning continues unabated. This passage forbids both the Premillennial and Preterist theories.

The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it. If words carry any meaning in Scripture then the whole Premillennial and Preterist schemes falls apart with such a passage. After all, in their paradigm, sin, corruption, death and rebellion continues on unabated in the supposed Premillennial and Preterist ‘ages to come’.

Michael W. Goheen fittingly explains, in his book A Light to the Nations, “Rabbinical eschatological thought, rooted in the Old Testament prophets, centered on the division of history into ‘this age’ (dominated by sin, death and the power of evil) and ‘the age to come’ (a world transformed and characterized by the knowledge of God, peace, justice, joy, and love).”

The sacred text shows us that the change from the old earth/world to the new earth/world happens at the move from this age to the age to come. This wholesale change happens at the time when Christ returns in all His final power and glory to abolish all rebellion and introduce the pristine eternal state.

Jesus says His in response to the disciples’ question reference His coming in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Coming of the Lord is presented as the closing day of time and history. It is a day that sees the final and total destruction of the wicked. In fact, after presenting the events that preceded the flood of Noah’s day that saw the obliteration of the wicked, Christ highlights the fact that the judgment “took them all away.” He then likens it to the day of His return, explaining, “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” All these associated elements are carefully brought together to demonstrate the climactic nature of Christ’s return. Mark 13:31 correlates, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Luke says the same, in Luke 21:33, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away.” Again the passing away of this current “heaven and earth” are carefully connected by Christ to His Second Coming. The timing mentioned here agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows the heavens and earth passing away when the day of the Lord arrives as a thief in the night.

Revelation 20 goes right back to Christ glorious (first) resurrection. It is a record of God's dealing with the devil. It is a different subject matter. It culminates with the climatic coming of Christ. The wicked are all destroyed in that recapitulation, this agrees with every other Second Coming passage. It is the end.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (or departed); and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The Second Coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Paul wrote that there were ages (plural) to come. Clearly I'm in line with at least one of the apostles in thinking this.



Jesus specifically said that marriage would cease to be an institution 'at the resurrection.'

Corruption ends after the last day as Paul tells us because there are no more fleshly bodies as we will have put on the incorrupt bodies we can expect after the resurrection.

So do you think I am daft? Is this an attempt at a personal insult? Why would I think the resurrection has already occurred when I have clearly already said to you that the day of judgement and the resurrection (the same day) is in the future?

Is this a just a snarky way of you ignoring Matthew 24's true meaning? I laid it out for you and you're just going to whistle past Jesus' words and then accuse me of thinking the resurrection has already occurred?

Luke 20:27-36 clearly demonstrates that the defining moment of change between this age and the age to come is the time of the Lord’s return and the physical resurrection, not AD70. It is nowhere shown to be the change from the old covenant to the new covenant, as you claim.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I'm not sure why you are so defensive. I'm just trying to highlight some of the issues why I believe your position is untenable. You should at least try and address these without attacking the messenger.

So he specifically is talking about the resurrection and you are conflating Matthew 24 with this which is inappropriate and terrible exegesis. And I asked you not to "rebut" me by bringing up things we agree about and that's exactly what you did. Funny.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So he specifically is talking about the resurrection and you are conflating Matthew 24 with this which is inappropriate and terrible exegesis. And I asked you not to "rebut" me by bringing up things we agree about and that's exactly what you did. Funny.

That is not true! I showed you that Luke 20:27-36 clearly demonstrates that the dividing moment between this age and the age to come is the time of the Lord’s return and the physical resurrection, not AD70. It is nowhere shown to be the change from the old covenant to the new covenant, as some you claim.

I also showed you that Matthew 24:35-44 correlated with the end of Revelation 20 and the rest of Revelation 21-22.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So he specifically is talking about the resurrection and you are conflating Matthew 24 with this which is inappropriate and terrible exegesis. And I asked you not to "rebut" me by bringing up things we agree about and that's exactly what you did. Funny.

What Scripture relating to "the age to come" do you relate to the new covenant period now?