Daniel 9:27 The Abomination Of Desolation, When Did Or Will This Take Place?

[Truth7t7]

I

Hello Truth7t7.

Just look at the two passages below, they are identical. Matthew just compresses the two events together, the end of Israel and the end of the world.

Matthew 24
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Do you believe Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Mark 14:13, are the same event?

 

[Truth7t7]

Correct.
Our friends are going to have to face the biblical reality of AD 70 as stated here:

Matthew 21:40-45
When the Lord therefore of the Vineyard comes, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

This event, This particular, unique "coming of the Lord to destroy those wicked men" was what the apostles had in mind when they promised their disciples the following:

-------------
Hebrews 10:37
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand...the time is come that judgment must begin

James 5:3, 8-9
[you rich ones]... it is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!...the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

Romans 13:11-12
salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is near.

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared--from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us

Revelation 1:1,3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand.

Matthew 23:34-36; 24:34
I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation...So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place
-------------

It's really quite simple. They expected the coming of the Lord of the Vineyard and the Stone to crush their enemies and give the kingdom to a new nation, the Church (Matt 21:40-45). They were not here speaking of the end of the Cosmos, but the end of the Old Testamental period and the dawn of the New Testamental age of Christ's Church and Kingdom.

Fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 Abomination Of Desolation, Matthew 24:21 Great Tribulation are future events, that are directly tied to the "Second Advent" as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

Do you deny a "Future Second Advent"?

 

[parousia70]

Ok your a Roman Catholic.

And you're not an English Professor.

"Self Serving Protestants"?

Its is my opinion that Any Protestant, Atheist, Muslim, Bhuddist, New Ager, Hindu, etc that believes they are any sort of authority on How Catholics must act to be a "Good Catholic" has only self serving motivations for such claims.

Of course Not all Protestants, Atheists, Muslims, Bhuddists, New Agers, Hindus, etc are Self Serving.
It is my opinion based on much observation of His words that Douggggg is a Self Serving Protestant.

 

[klutedavid]

I

Do you believe Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Mark 14:13, are the same event?

Hello Truth7t7.

With a small correction, Mark 14:13 to Mark 13:14.

Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20, are exactly the same event.

I don't think anyone could argue this point.

Will you deny the following verse is explaining the same event, Matthew 24:15?

Luke 21:20:21
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains...

You must deny this verse in Luke, otherwise your interpretation is redundant.

 

[parousia70]

Do you believe Daniel 9:27 & Matthew 24:15 are the same event?

Yes. And I'll Add Luke 21:20-22 to that mix. (Though Daniel found its TYPOLOGY in Antiochus)
Would you agree?

 

[parousia70]

Fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 Abomination Of Desolation, Matthew 24:21 Great Tribulation are future events, that are directly tied to the "Second Advent" as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

Well, I've addressed "Immediatly" multiple times with you, and you have chosen so far to be silent in response, so I won't waste my time on it again untill you do respond.
Will you?

But it is you who have yet to show where scripture teaches that that The cloud Coming of Matthew 24:29-31 is to be interpreted in a complete, polar opposite fashion to all previous cloud comings of Yahweh that use the exact same language of Stars falling, moon going dark, The Heavens shaking, God Riding a cloud with Angelic Armies in tow, etc...

Can you?

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

You keep saying this, but have yet to respond in any way to my replies..
Can you?

Do you deny a "Future Second Advent"?

Show me the scripture you believe teaches this "future second advent" and I'll tell you if I believe that particular scripture you are using teaches anything of the sort.

So far you haven't shown one that fits the bill.

Scripture states that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33), therefore it is likely that the cosmos, in some form or another, will exist forever and ever.

That being said, The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule out this possibility. Yet even that would not be an end of God's creation, but, rather, a new outworking of it. For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deut 29:29).

 

[parousia70]

Fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 Abomination Of Desolation, Matthew 24:21 Great Tribulation are future events, that are directly tied to the "Second Advent" as seen in Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

When do you say Matthew 21:33-45 was fulfilled?
Or do you say that is a future "2nd advent" event as well?

 

[Truth7t7]

klutedavid:

hello Truth7t7.

With a small correction, Mark 14:13 to Mark 13:14.

Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20, are exactly the same event.

I don't think anyone could argue this point.

Will you deny the following verse is explaining the same event, Matthew 24:15?

Luke 21:20:21
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains...

You must deny this verse in Luke, otherwise your interpretation is redundant.

Truth7t7 Responds:

Klute I believe they are the same, we agree.

Do you believe this Abomination Of Desolation Matthew 24:15 and Great Tribulation Matthew 24:21 are associated in time context?

It appears you do, as inhabitants are "fleeing".

 

[BABerean2]

Do you believe Daniel 9:27 & Matthew 24:15 are the same event?

They both contain a reference to the events of 70 AD.

However, the main focus of Daniel 9:27 is the New Covenant of Christ, while Matthew 24:15 is a reference to the events of 167 BC and how part of those events would be repeated during 70 AD, as proven by the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-24.

Not only did the forces of Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue in the sanctuary and have a pig slaughtered on the altar, but they also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and they also stopped the temple sacrifices for a time.


The Jews of Jesus time, who celebrated the festival of Hanukkah each year (John 10:22), knew well what happened during 167 BC. They would have understood the historical context of Christ's words in Matthew 24:15-16.

Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, who may not have understood Hanukkah and the events of 167 BC. Therefore, Luke spelled it out for them in Luke 21:20-21

.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, I've addressed "Immediatly" multiple times with you, and you have chosen so far to be silent in response, so I won't waste my time on it again untill you do respond.
Will you?

But it is you who have yet to show where scripture teaches that that The cloud Coming of Matthew 24:29-31 is to be interpreted in a complete, polar opposite fashion to all previous cloud comings of Yahweh that use the exact same language of Stars falling, moon going dark, The Heavens shaking, God Riding a cloud with Angelic Armies in tow, etc...

Can you?



You keep saying this, but have yet to respond in any way to my replies..
Can you?



Show me the scripture you believe teaches this "future second advent" and I'll tell you if I believe that particular scripture you are using teaches anything of the sort.

So far you haven't shown one that fits the bill.

Scripture states that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33), therefore it is likely that the cosmos, in some form or another, will exist forever and ever.

That being said, The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule out this possibility. Yet even that would not be an end of God's creation, but, rather, a new outworking of it. For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deut 29:29).

We disagree, the second advent is seen in Matthew 24:30 and Luke 21:27-28, the entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to this.

Look up your redemption draweth nigh. Romans 8:23, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

We disagree.

 

[Truth7t7]

Thanks for the response and explanation.

Fully disagree Jesus was speaking prophetically about "Antiochus" that had been fulfilled.

Same second advent, same tribulation and abomination in Luke's account as in Matthews account.

However Luke 21:28 below contains the final blow to you preterist interpretation.

"When These Things Begin To Come To Past"

"Look up your redemption draweth nigh"

What redemption?

The Physical "Body" to immortality. Romans 8:3, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Ephesians 4:30 Ye are sealed unto the day of "redemption" the last day, at the second advent.

Berean the events Abomination Of Desolation, Great Tribulation, And Second Advent Are Tied Together With The Time Stamp In Verse 27-28?

"Then Shall They See The Son Of Man Coming"

"When These Things Begin To Come To Past"

Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

They shall see the Son Of Man"

You can"t put 2000 years between your 70 AD Abomination and Great Tribulation fulfillment, and a future Second Advent, Error.

"Immediately After" isn't 2000 + years and waiting.

The Abomination of desolation and great tribulation are 100% Future Events, At The Second Coming, When The Physical Body Will Be Redeemed.

70 AD Fulfillment, 100% Error.

From your very words, if you need to change the clear teaching of scripture to make your teaching work, it's a false teaching.

Luke 21:26-28
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

They both contain a reference to the events of 70 AD.

However, the main focus of Daniel 9:27 is the New Covenant of Christ, while Matthew 24:15 is a reference to the events of 167 BC and how part of those events would be repeated during 70 AD, as proven by the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-24.

Not only did the forces of Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue in the sanctuary and have a pig slaughtered on the altar, but they also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and they also stopped the temple sacrifices for a time.


The Jews of Jesus time, who celebrated the festival of Hanukkah each year (John 10:22), knew well what happened during 167 BC. They would have understood the historical context of Christ's words in Matthew 24:15-16.

Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, who may not have understood Hanukkah and the events of 167 BC. Therefore, Luke spelled it out for them in Luke 21:20-21

.

 

[discipler7]

1.) Do you believe Daniel 9:27 below represents Daniels "Abomination Of Desolation" as seen in Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14? ...

1.) 66-70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem?
Or

2.) A future event unfulfilled?

.
MATTHEW.24: =
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” ...

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ..."
.

LUKE.21: =
The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

After about 2,000 years, it is highly unlikely that the Jewish Holy Temple of God at Jerusalem will be rebuilt by the Jews and then destroyed again by Gentiles.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus destroyed the temple "symbolically" through his death, burial, resurrection, the veil in the holy place was torn from top to bottom Matthew 27:51, the temple was demolished, gone in the spiritual.

Jesus is now the holy place, a temple made without hands, where we as priest and kings go to in intercession, having open access to the throne. Hebrews 9

Mark 14:58KJV
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

.
MATTHEW.24: =
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” ...

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ..."
.

LUKE.21: =
The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

After about 2,000 years, it is highly unlikely that the Jewish Holy Temple of God at Jerusalem will be rebuilt by the Jews and then destroyed again by Gentiles.

 

[BABerean2]

Thanks for the response and explanation.

Fully disagree Jesus was speaking prophetically about "Antiochus" that had been fulfilled.

Same second advent, same tribulation and abomination in Luke's account as in Matthews account.

However Luke 21:28 below contains the final blow to you preterist interpretation.

"When These Things Begin To Come To Past"

"Look up your redemption draweth nigh"

What redemption?

The Physical "Body" to immortality. Romans 8:3, 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Ephesians 4:30 Ye are sealed unto the day of "redemption" the last day, at the second advent.

Berean the events Abomination Of Desolation, Great Tribulation, And Second Advent Are Tied Together With The Time Stamp In Verse 27-28?

"Then Shall They See The Son Of Man Coming"

"When These Things Begin To Come To Past"

Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

They shall see the Son Of Man"

You can"t put 2000 years between your 70 AD Abomination and Great Tribulation fulfillment, and a future Second Advent, Error.

"Immediately After" isn't 2000 + years and waiting.

The Abomination of desolation and great tribulation are 100% Future Events, At The Second Coming, When The Physical Body Will Be Redeemed.

70 AD Fulfillment, 100% Error.

From your very words, if you need to change the clear teaching of scripture to make your teaching work, it's a false teaching.

Luke 21:26-28
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Some of us apparently do not know the difference between partial-preterism and full-preterism.

Jesus was a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.
If He was not, the second Jewish temple would still be standing in Jerusalem.

...............................................................................

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse in each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

If you have no idea of why John 10:22 is in the Bible, then you cannot understand why your interpretation of the Olivet Discourse is not correct.



Some of us are still holding onto Hal Lindsay's explanation of the Olivet Discourse.

Error begets error...

.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus Christ destroyed the temple in Jerusalem "symbolically" it no longer stood after his death, burial, and resurrection, paying close attention to verse 11 below.

Jesus Christ became that tabernacle, he replaced the temple building verse 11

The temple was destroyed, removed, at the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Preterist Error, Begats Preterist Error.

Hebrews 9King James Version (KJV)
9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Some of us apparently do not know the difference between partial-preterism and full-preterism.

Jesus was a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.
If He was not, the second Jewish temple would still be standing in Jerusalem.

...............................................................................

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse in each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

If you have no idea of why John 10:22 is in the Bible, then you cannot understand why your interpretation of the Olivet Discourse is not correct.



Some of us are still holding onto Hal Lindsay's explanation of the Olivet Discourse.

Error begets error...

.

 

[geiroffenberg]

Do you believe Daniel 9:27 below represents Daniels "Abomination Of Desolation" as seen in Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14?

If yes, when do you believe this has or will be fulfilled, "After Jesus Spoke These Words"?

If yes, I believe you have one of two choices?

1.) 66-70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem?

Or

2.) A future event unfulfilled?

If you choose the preterist 66-70AD fulfillment, then we argue that Matthew 24:29-31 shows the "Second Advent" taking place.

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation Of Those Days.

We know the "Second Advent" is a future event.

This Put's the Abomination Of Desolation, Great Tribulation, and "Second Advent" As Future Events.

Daniel 9:27 below is a future event, unfulfilled.

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

no, matt 24:29-31 is not a coming future event. It can be proven by looking at the prophetic langue used elsewhere in scripture, including book of revelation, which dates similar spoke words to the timeframe of the first century.

Verse 31 however, the ingathering of the elect, may very well describe the age of the harvest, either describing the first century spead of the gospel, or the whole last 2000 years of the same thing.

However, the former is mroe likely as the prophecy is directly related to ISRAEL in the first century. The "tribes of the land" the mournes over the son they have crucified and that they see coming in the clouds (as in judgement) fits perfectly to ad 70

ALso, its false to claim that a ad70 fulfiment of dan 9:27 is the "preterist "view. its perfectly possible to see the whole daniel prohpecy fulfilled and still believe in a second coming of christ in the future

 

[Truth7t7]

no, matt 24:29-31 is not a coming future event. It can be proven by looking at the prophetic langue used elsewhere in scripture, including book of revelation, which dates similar spoke words to the timeframe of the first century.

Verse 31 however, the ingathering of the elect, may very well describe the age of the harvest, either describing the first century spead of the gospel, or the whole last 2000 years of the same thing.

However, the former is mroe likely as the prophecy is directly related to ISRAEL in the first century. The "tribes of the land" the mournes over the son they have crucified and that they see coming in the clouds (as in judgement) fits perfectly to ad 70

ALso, its false to claim that a ad70 fulfiment of dan 9:27 is the "preterist "view. its perfectly possible to see the whole daniel prohpecy fulfilled and still believe in a second coming of christ in the future

Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

I see the second advent in the verses cited, you can deny this all ya want, we disagree.

"Preterism" works primarily around the olivet discourse in Matthew 24

If you believe part has been fulfilled such as verse 15 Daniels Abomination Of Desolation verse 21 Great Tribulation?

But you believe in a future Second Advent, resurrection, final judgment, eternal kingdom?

This puts you in the "Partial Preterist" camp.

 

[parousia70]

We disagree, the second advent is seen in Matthew 24:30 and Luke 21:27-28, the entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to this.

Matthew 24 is dedicated to the destruction of the temple, stone by stone.
How you can dismiss this fact is astounding.

We disagree.

We clearly do.
It is a shame that you can't or won't articulate HOW though.

I've been very thorough in my responses to your querries and this is the best you can do?

Can you take ANY of the scriptures I cited and show me WHY they do not mean what I contend they do? Even one of them?

That you flat out IGNORE the OT cloud comings of Yahweh when discussing the NT Cloud coming of Jesus speaks volumes as to the scriptural validity of your position.

We disagree because you have shown the forum no foundation to support your claims.

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

I see the second advent in the verses cited, you can deny this all ya want, we disagree.

I have used scripture to show you why those verses do not mean what you contend.
Again I'll ask, why do YOU interpret the OT Phrases: "God rides a swift could" and was "Seen by the Eyes of All nations" in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to the NT Phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"?

YOU interpret one metaphorically and the ther literally.
Where does scripture teach you to do this?
It should be quite simple for you to demonstrate, no?

"Preterism" works primarily around the olivet discourse in Matthew 24

You might do well to dig a little deeper: PRETERISM 101
A futurist trying to school a preterist on preterism ought to know a little more than a cliff notes dusting on the topic, don't ya think?

I keep asking and you have yet to answer...Which "coming of the Lord" do you claim is depicted in Matthew 21:33-45?

 

[Barney2.0]

The abomination of desolation is already existence it's called Masjid Al Aqsa and on each of its sides it denies Jesus on every side you can find the Shahada written. It is the place where the sacrifices ceased as there isn't any Jewish sacrifices there anymore unless you count the western wall. The Anti Christ will rule from Jerusalem but guess who else will rule from there according to the Islamic Hadith books Imam Al Mahdi.