Daniel 7 helps prove when Revelation 20:4 is meaning

[grafted branch]

We must consider TIME when reading verses. Why? Because the days of great tribulation is a very special time. It will be a God ordained time. God's purpose is to completely shatter the power of the Jews. (Dan. 12) There are only two verses I can find in all of scripture that will apply for believers in Christ at that time: Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 both tell us that the saints will be overcome. No amount of faith in other verses will work.

For example, there are many verses that give us authority over all the power of the enemy DURING THE CHURCH AGE. However, these verses won't work for they are for the church age. The church age will end with the pretribulation rapture.

If a believer loves life so much that they take the mark to stay alive, that is being overcome.
If a believer is captured and their freedom taken from them, and they refuse the mark and are beheaded, that is being "overcome."

There will be only ONE WAY to get victory over the Beast: that is to refuse the mark and become a martyr.

However, a FAR better choice is to believe God has an escape plan, so you are never forced to make such a tough decision. Get born again Today, for today is the day of salvation! Then pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming, and live together with Him.

If nearly all of the Bible is no longer applicable during the 42 months of the beast and salvation is dependent only on whether or not a person gets the mark then yes I can see how the believers are overcome.

However I think this is an impossibility because of verses such as Hebrews 13:5-6 I will never leave thee nor forsake thee … I will not fear what man shall do unto me. I personally don’t think this verse is meant for this age only and at some future point believers will be forsaken and fear what will happen.

 

[grafted branch]

In the last 1992 years saints have been martyred, overcome and killed, removed from earth before natural death itself happened. That does not mean the church was defeated and overcome.

The question really is this, why would a believer think when someone has been martyred they have been overcome?

In Philippians 1:20-21 Paul says this, Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Wouldn’t a believer, faced with the choice of getting the mark or being killed, make this same claim? Paul magnified Christ whether he lived or died, so was he overcome?

Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The Bible is written from the perspective of a believer, can you explain under what circumstances would a believer be considered to be overcome?

 

[claninja]

What is your interpretation of Daniel 2:44? The text indicates that it is in the days of these kings, as in plural kings. What kings are you taking these to mean? Obviously, a kingdom can not be set up during the days of kings who are reigning in different eras of time since that would be illogical. The nearest antecedent appears to be verses 40-43, and according to Revelation 17:12 the ten toes are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Whether the kings are successive or contemporary, makes no difference to me, because Jesus said the kingdom of God would come with power before his audience died (obviously that would be Rome, the fourth gentile empire in succession, with Babylon being the first since Israel’s captivity by then)

Mark 9:1 1Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.

Daniel 2:44 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever.

 

[DavidPT]

The question really is this, why would a believer think when someone has been martyred they have been overcome?

Here's some of the relevant verses pertaining to this.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them

Where we then see in verse 22 that this comes to an end when the Ancient of days comes. Notice in verse 22 it begins with 'Until', which clearly tells us that the little horn once it makes war with the saints, it prevails against them until that of what is recorded in verse 22 comes to pass. We are also told in verse 22 that this is when judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. IOW, believe it or not, chronology actually matters. Plus, note in verse 22 that judgment is being given to the saints of the most High, meaning the same saints the little horn was overcoming.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Thus far, in regards to the saints being overcome, we are told this in Daniel 7---and prevailed against them---and shall wear out the saints of the most High---and they shall be given into his hand.

Verse 25 then tells us how long this goes on for---until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Now we need to consult the NT in order to try and determine what is meant by a time and times and the dividing of time.

A good place to start is Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This gives us a clue as to how to interpret a time and times and the dividing of time.

In order to mathematically arrive at 1260 days if the formula is a time, and times, and half a time--it would have to be like such.

1(a time) + 2(times) + 1/2(half a time). Which would mean 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 year = 3.5 years. Or this--360 days(1 year) + 720 days(2 years) + 180 days(1/2 year) = 1260 days. Or--12 months(1 year) + 24 months(2 years) + 6 months(1/2 year) = 42 months.

Which then tells us that they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, that this is meaning 42 months. Where that is obviously meaning the following in Revelation 11:2 which then is meaning Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Several questions arise. When do the 42 months begin and when do they end? Are these a literal 42 months? As to the latter, the only way to determine that is by knowing when they begin and when they end, and how much time that involves. If it involves more that a literal 42 months from start to finish, obviously it can't be meaning a literal 42 months in that case.

What's interesting about this, 42 months is 1/2 of 7 years. Which then should have one thinking about the 70th week and the last half of Daniel 9:27----meaning this--- and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

If a week involves 84 months, how can the midst of it not be involving 42 months from the the midst to the end of it?


BTW, Preterists who interpret Revelation 11:2 and this 42 months to be involving Jerusalem leading up to 70 AD, this is debunked via Revelation 13 since none of that could possibly be involving what happened in the first century leading up to 70 AD. As if it makes sense that---And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies(Revelation 13:5)--is relevant to the fall of Jerusalem in the first century.

 

[Timtofly]

The question really is this, why would a believer think when someone has been martyred they have been overcome?

In Philippians 1:20-21 Paul says this, Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Wouldn’t a believer, faced with the choice of getting the mark or being killed, make this same claim? Paul magnified Christ whether he lived or died, so was he overcome?

Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The Bible is written from the perspective of a believer, can you explain under what circumstances would a believer be considered to be overcome?

The verse says:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Satan is allowed (given unto him) to wage war and kill them. It does not say Satan fought and killed them. The saints are the 144k. They leave earth with Christ to mount Zion.

Besides, after the 6th Seal, there are no Christians nor church on the earth. These saints are the 144k, and sealed so they cannot die. The point is that after the 7th Trumpet is sounded, the final harvest is over and billions of humans have been removed already. The only one's left to accept Christ will be those beheaded. These are not believers who hold out until the end. These are nonbelievers who have to choose between the mark and beheading. Once the choice is made there is no return. The mark cannot be reversed, and neither can cutting one's head off.

A believer cannot be overcome. Why would Satan think he can overcome people to begin with? It did not work with Job. It did work with Adam and Eve. I am sure many believers felt overcome when it was their time to leave this life. What we think and know really does not matter. It is being obedient to God that matters, even if we think we have failed, because of doubt. How do you think Peter felt when the Rooster sounded that 3rd time? His life was not over, but many feel that way even in death. God knows our hearts and soul better than even we do at times.

If you spiritualize that verse in Revelation 13, then it is you who claims they loose their salvation and faith, and are overcome. Overcome could simply mean they were removed by God, and no longer had an influence on the earth. All in heaven have to wait until Satan's 42 months are over. Only the 2 individual witnesses can influence people at that point.

 

[Timtofly]

If a week involves 84 months, how can the midst of it not be involving 42 months from the the midst to the end of it?

Or a week can be 7 days, and the 42 months is between two 3.5 day periods.

The days of the 7th Trumpet sounding start. 3.5 days later the 42 months are inserted into the week. Then the remaining 3.5 days finish after the 42 months.

 

[grafted branch]

Here's some of the relevant verses pertaining to this.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them

Where we then see in verse 22 that this comes to an end when the Ancient of days comes. Notice in verse 22 it begins with 'Until', which clearly tells us that the little horn once it makes war with the saints, it prevails against them until that of what is recorded in verse 22 comes to pass. We are also told in verse 22 that this is when judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. IOW, believe it or not, chronology actually matters. Plus, note in verse 22 that judgment is being given to the saints of the most High, meaning the same saints the little horn was overcoming.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Thus far, in regards to the saints being overcome, we are told this in Daniel 7---and prevailed against them---and shall wear out the saints of the most High---and they shall be given into his hand.

Verse 25 then tells us how long this goes on for---until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 7:22 says judgment is given to the saints and the time came that the saints possess the kingdom. In Daniel 7:27 we get a little more clarification, it says the kingdom shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High.

It’s not all the saints that get the kingdom, it’s a group of people from the saints of God that get the kingdom. In Deuteronomy 14:2, regarding the entire nation of Israel, For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. This is basically the definition of what a saint is.

So if we look at Daniel 7:27 and replace the word saints with the word Israel we come up with this, not all Israel which are of Israel get the kingdom of God.

So the true Israel, true believers, saints are given the kingdom while national Israel, those who believe in their linage and law, saints are overcome and don’t get the kingdom.

Now we need to consult the NT in order to try and determine what is meant by a time and times and the dividing of time.

A good place to start is Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This gives us a clue as to how to interpret a time and times and the dividing of time.

In order to mathematically arrive at 1260 days if the formula is a time, and times, and half a time--it would have to be like such.

1(a time) + 2(times) + 1/2(half a time). Which would mean 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 year = 3.5 years. Or this--360 days(1 year) + 720 days(2 years) + 180 days(1/2 year) = 1260 days. Or--12 months(1 year) + 24 months(2 years) + 6 months(1/2 year) = 42 months.

Which then tells us that they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, that this is meaning 42 months. Where that is obviously meaning the following in Revelation 11:2 which then is meaning Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Several questions arise. When do the 42 months begin and when do they end? Are these a literal 42 months? As to the latter, the only way to determine that is by knowing when they begin and when they end, and how much time that involves. If it involves more that a literal 42 months from start to finish, obviously it can't be meaning a literal 42 months in that case.

What's interesting about this, 42 months is 1/2 of 7 years. Which then should have one thinking about the 70th week and the last half of Daniel 9:27----meaning this--- and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .

If a week involves 84 months, how can the midst of it not be involving 42 months from the the midst to the end of it?

The woman who flees into the wilderness in Revelation 12 is saved, I think we are in agreement on this, but woman isn’t specifically called the saints.

While I would agree that the 3.5 years, 1260 days, and time times and 1/2 time could all be pointing to the same period of time, I don’t necessarily think that has to be the case. I don’t think all the instances where we see this can all fit into just one half of the seventieth week.

 

[grafted branch]

A believer cannot be overcome.

I agree.

Overcome could simply mean they were removed by God, and no longer had an influence on the earth.

Again I think I would agree. In Deuteronomy 33:1-5, when Moses blessed Israel, the word saints is referring to the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel was removed by God and it no longer had an influence on earth.

 

[RandyPNW]

the historical facts of the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 and 1453 already work against your own argument. And yes, the idea that Europe is the Roman Empire, definitely rings conspiracy theory amongst nationalists and Christian fundamentalist circles.

Again, I don't understand your use of the language "conspiracy theory?" I'm using a particular interpretation of a passage, and not conspiring at all!

My belief that Roman Civilization extended beyond the Eastern and Western branches of the old Roman Empire is a reality. Whether you can call European Civilization "the Roman Kingdom" simply because it is part of Roman Civilization is debatable, and I've not said otherwise. But it is *not* a conspiracy!

Fair enough, I’ll rephrase. The Roman Empire was the fourth gentile empire in succession starting with Babylon, for which Israel was under following the destruction of the first temple. Christ lived during this fourth empire as evidenced by Luke 3:1.

I'm certainly not against drawing logical conclusions.

This is blatantly incorrect.

John wrote during the time of the Roman Empire which was the Fourth gentile empire in succession starting with Babylon and the destruction of the first temple:

John clearly stated the antichrist was already in the world. He even adds “that is how we know it is the LAST HOUR”. The antichrist was already in the world according to John

1 john 4:3 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is that of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.

Which clearly parallels:

1 john 2:18 18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

None of your verses indicate the Antichrist "existed"--past tense, during the ancient Roman Empire. What they do indicate is that the entire age is characterized by AntiChristian deception, ie there have been and will be many Antichrists before the anticipated Antichrist actually arrives.

Saying the "spirit of Antichrist" is already here is not the same thing as saying the Antichrist himself is here. Saying there have already been many Antichrists is not the same thing as saying THE Antichrist has already come. We very much disagree on this. And I don't believe it's wrong at all.

It is a Biblical fact that the apostles wrote these “near” time statements during the Roman Empire, which was the fourth gentile empire in succession, with Babylon as the first, following the destruction of the first temple.

1 john 2:18 18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

James 5:8 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near.

1 peter 4:7 7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

hebrews 10:37 37For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

and this is a result of Christ coming during the Roman Empire, fourth in succession of the gentile empires, with Babylon being the first, after the destruction of the first temple, no?

Yes, Christ came during the 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire. But he certainly did not bring with him the promised Messianic Kingdom. That remains "near."

 

[iamlamad]

You shouldn't talk to me as if I'm a novice. I changed from Pretrib to Postrib in the early 70s. And I did so after indulging in Bible memorization, specifically in 2 Thessalonians.

I've read George E. Ladd and Robert Gundry on this subject--have you? I've read many, many books and documents from the Pretrib perspective. I'm fully aware of every argument involved, and I remain a convinced Postrib--not out of pride or prejudice, but only because my conscience directs me to.

I'm not prepared to ignore the fact nearly all NT eschatology is based on Dan 7 and the prophecy of the Little Horn, the Antichrist, who is defeated at the coming of the Son of Man. That is the blueprint for the endtimes. Christ comes back to defeat the Antichrist. That is what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians. And that also is what the book of Revelation teaches, unless we create all kinds of artificial symbolic interpretations of what is said.

This has little to do with making one a Christian. But I believe it has a lot to do with helping us to know what we're up against in this life.

The arguments about the mysterious Restrainer in 2 Thes 2 does not dissolve Paul's explicit claim that Christ cannot return until it is time to destroy Antichrist. And so, Pretribbers use the Restrainer as a means of confusing the issue, and endorsing a theology the opposite of what Paul stated.

The Early Church Fathers saw the Restrainer as the Roman Government, which Paul could not spell out without being charged with conspiracy and treason. That's why it's given in a somewhat cloak of mystery, much as John did concerning "Mystery Babylon." Babylon was really *Rome!*

And so, they believed the Restraint of Antichrist was the 4th Kingdom that could not allow Antichrist to come until it had divided into 10 States. The unity of the Roman Government, particularly after it was Christianized, prevented Antichrist from coming prematurely.

Anyway, I go by Paul's theology, and not by an isolated, controversial passage. If you care to discuss this further, you'll find that I'm hardly ignorant of the arguments.

I find it strange you did not mention these statements:

The truth is, you have just not found the pretrib rapture. It is there and millions have found it. Need help?
Paul told us the rapture would come just before wrath.
John teaches us that wrath begins at the 6th seal.

Revelation's timeline of the 70th week:

|->-Trumpet judgments ->midpoint -> Beast rises->->Days of GT->Shortened->-> |

Revelation's timeline basis:

Seven seals -> seven trumpets -> seven vials.
Church age -> 70th week or Tribulation->->->

Where does the 70th week or "trib" begin? With the 7th seal. Therefore, if the rapture can be shown to be BEFORE the 7th seal, the rapture will be PRETRIB, period and end of story.

Paul told us the rapture would come just before wrath.
John teaches us that wrath begins at the 6th seal.

Do you not believe these two statements?
Did you notice that Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord just three verses after His classic rapture verse in 1 Thes. 4? Did you notice that after mentioning the Day, he then mentioned the start of God's WRATH?

Why would Paul mention the Day and God's WRATH in His rapture passage, unless they are connected? The truth is, they ARE connected. The rapture and the DAY will be back-to-back events. Both Van Kampen and Rosenthal wrote this in their books. I put it this way: His pretrib coming will be the trigger for the rapture events, then the rapture will trigger the Day.

Then we turn to Revelation and find where WRATH begins on John's timeline. It is not difficult: it begins at the 6th seal.

WHERE on a timeline is the 6th seal?
Seal 1 is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. Take careful note, Jesus ascended, sent the Holy Spirit down, and then got the book into His hands, and began, right then, around 32 AD opening the seals. This is proven in Revelation 5. Rev. 4 & 5 form the context of the first seal and establish the time these first seals were opened.

Seal 1: the church taking the gospel to the nations. Circa: 32 AD.
Seals 2, 3, 4: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. Circa: approx 32 AD
Seal 5: was opened in time for Stephen's murder. Opened very soon after the church began.

These early martyrs were crying out, wondering how long it would be before God would judge their murders. They were told they would have to wait until the very last church age martyr. The very next event John wrote was the 6th seal START of the judgment the martyrs were asking about.

Therefore, the church has been waiting at the 5th seal all this time, waiting for that final martyr. What will cause the final church age martyr? The PRETRIB RAPTURE will end the church age, and WRATH as in the Day of His Wrath will follow as back to back events.

As further proof that the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seals, John SAW the just-raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal - as the great crowd, too large to number.

So far, we see that Paul in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 fit perfectly with John in Revelation. The rapture just before the 6th seal, and the TRIBULATION or 70th week begining at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

This is why MILLIONS of believers are pretrib: it is scriptural.
Summary: 6 always comes BEFORE 7 in counting. That is why the rapture is PRETRIB.

 

[iamlamad]

I've read George E. Ladd and Robert Gundry on this subject--have you? I've read many, many books and documents from the Pretrib perspective. I'm fully aware of every argument involved, and I remain a convinced Postrib--not out of pride or prejudice, but only because my conscience directs me to.

Classic pretrib theory does not know where the rapture is, or where the tribulation is on Revelation's timeline. Are you aware of this?

Pretrib imagines the tribulation or 70th week beginning with the first seal - when in truth, it will not begin until the 7th seal. God marked the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. Just so you know, I have not only read Gundry's book, I have written a book critiquing it.

I'm not prepared to ignore the fact nearly all NT eschatology is based on Dan 7 and the prophecy of the Little Horn, the Antichrist, who is defeated at the coming of the Son of Man. That is the blueprint for the endtimes. Christ comes back to defeat the Antichrist. That is what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians. And that also is what the book of Revelation teaches, unless we create all kinds of artificial symbolic interpretations of what is said.

Paul wrote at least two letters to the Thessalonians. I think you will agree that he would not show a pre-wrath rapture in his first letter, and then a post-trib rapture in his second letter.

Since this is true, perhaps you have not understood Paul's second letter.

The arguments about the mysterious Restrainer in 2 Thes 2 does not dissolve Paul's explicit claim that Christ cannot return until it is time to destroy Antichrist. And so, Pretribbers use the Restrainer as a means of confusing the issue, and endorsing a theology the opposite of what Paul stated.

How interesting! Paul wrote, "and know you know what is restraining..."
Why did Paul write those words? He wrote them because he had just told the readers, but did it in a veiled way. He wanted the readers to go back and read it again until they understood who the restrainer is. I ask you then, do you know who is restraining?

The next key many people miss is found in 3b: the man of sin IS REVEALED in Paul's argument right there in 3b. Yet, when we read verses 6-8 we find he CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining him has been taken out of the way.

Therefore, somewhere in 3a we MUST find the restrainer has been taken out of the way.

Another clue is Paul's theme: somewhere in this passage we MUST Find the rapture or gathering.

I suspect you already know the the first several translations into English translated apostasia into "Departing." It is nut just any departing but a very significant departing.

Have you studied what Strong's tells us about apostasia? It is a compound word, made up of apo and stasia.
Apo:
1. of separation…
1 A. of local separation,
1 B. of separation of a part from the whole

1 B i. where of a whole some part is taken
1 C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another…
1 D. of a state of separation, that is of distance
1 D i. physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

Therefore, when we understand that Paul's meaning of apostasia is the departing of the church as in the rapture, we understand the restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the church.

Next, we have satisfied Paul's theme: we have found the gathering.
Next, we understand HOW the man of sin is revealed in 3b.

I find that Paul teaches a pretrib rapture in BOTH his letters.

 

[RandyPNW]

Classic pretrib theory does not know where the rapture is, or where the tribulation is on Revelation's timeline. Are you aware of this?

Not sure what you're specifically referring to? I'm aware that Pretribs have had many conflicting ideas, but largely a form of Darbyism.

My own view of the Rapture and of the Great Tribulation is my concern. And it's very different from the conventional Pretrib view.

Pretrib imagines the tribulation or 70th week beginning with the first seal - when in truth, it will not begin until the 7th seal. God marked the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. Just so you know, I have not only read Gundry's book, I have written a book critiquing it.

The problem with this is, I don't believe Daniel's 70th Week has anything to do with the book of Revelation at all! It was fulfilled at Christ's 1st Coming.

The Great Tribulation is the Jewish Punishment of the NT era. Jesus made that fairly clear in Luke 21, even though many futurists want to make the Olivet Discourse all about the endtimes.

Much of the Olivet Discourse actually had to do with Israel's judgment in Jesus' generation, which of course has continued down through the age in the Jewish Diaspora. It meant that Jewish believers were persecuted by their own Jewish brethren and also by pagan Gentiles. And this models what Christians have had to go through in their own countries.

Paul wrote at least two letters to the Thessalonians. I think you will agree that he would not show a pre-wrath rapture in his first letter, and then a post-trib rapture in his second letter.

What matters is the context of each letter. You interpret what Paul says by the context in which he says it. If his purpose is not to show a Rapture in any particular order with respect to God's Wrath, then you're not going to find it at all!

So in 1 Thes 4 you will see the main purpose of mentioning the Rapture is to assure believers that all believers will be resurrected to immortality. That in itself is deliverance from God's wrath, to be raised up immortal and unable to be judged anymore.

In 2 Thes 2 you will note that Paul is aiming to frustrate any false sense that Christ has already come with his Kingdom. This parallels Jesus' concerns, in his Olivet Discourse, concerning false Christs who project a false, premature coming of the Kingdom. Christ's Kingdom will be unmistakable when it comes, and will be the work of God--not Man.

In 2 Thes 2 Paul's argument is that the Kingdom cannot have come yet, no matter what imposters and cultists say, if Antichrist has not yet come and been destroyed. And from Dan 7, to which Paul refers, we know that Antichrist will lead a reign of terror against Christians for 3.5 years, after which Satan will be bound and Christ will set up his Kingdom of peace.

How interesting! Paul wrote, "and know you know what is restraining..."
Why did Paul write those words? He wrote them because he had just told the readers, but did it in a veiled way. He wanted the readers to go back and read it again until they understood who the restrainer is. I ask you then, do you know who is restraining?

Yes, the Roman Kingdom has been restraining the coming of Antichrist until the 10 parts of that Kingdom appears. And then Antichrist will take charge of it as an empire.

The next key many people miss is found in 3b: the man of sin IS REVEALED in Paul's argument right there in 3b. Yet, when we read verses 6-8 we find he CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining him has been taken out of the way.

That's like saying the obvious--you can't go through the door until you open the door. The same here: Antichrist will not be revealed until the things that presently restrain him no longer restrain him.

I suspect you already know the the first several translations into English translated apostasia into "Departing." It is nut just any departing but a very significant departing.

Yes, I've known about this for about 50 years.

Have you studied what Strong's tells us about apostasia? It is a compound word, made up of apo and stasia.

I know a little Greek, and yes, I've studied it. It generally refers to a falling away--not a Rapture. But the context is primary. I realize many Pretribbers try to read "the catching away of the Church" into "apostasia," but it doesn't work for me. Sorry!

 

[RandyPNW]

I find it strange you did not mention these statements:

The truth is, you have just not found the pretrib rapture. It is there and millions have found it. Need help?
Paul told us the rapture would come just before wrath.
John teaches us that wrath begins at the 6th seal.

Revelation's timeline of the 70th week:

|->-Trumpet judgments ->midpoint -> Beast rises->->Days of GT->Shortened->-> |

Revelation's timeline basis:

Seven seals -> seven trumpets -> seven vials.
Church age -> 70th week or Tribulation->->->

Where does the 70th week or "trib" begin? With the 7th seal. Therefore, if the rapture can be shown to be BEFORE the 7th seal, the rapture will be PRETRIB, period and end of story.

Paul told us the rapture would come just before wrath.
John teaches us that wrath begins at the 6th seal.

Do you not believe these two statements?
Did you notice that Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord just three verses after His classic rapture verse in 1 Thes. 4? Did you notice that after mentioning the Day, he then mentioned the start of God's WRATH?

Why would Paul mention the Day and God's WRATH in His rapture passage, unless they are connected? The truth is, they ARE connected. The rapture and the DAY will be back-to-back events. Both Van Kampen and Rosenthal wrote this in their books. I put it this way: His pretrib coming will be the trigger for the rapture events, then the rapture will trigger the Day.

Then we turn to Revelation and find where WRATH begins on John's timeline. It is not difficult: it begins at the 6th seal.

WHERE on a timeline is the 6th seal?
Seal 1 is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. Take careful note, Jesus ascended, sent the Holy Spirit down, and then got the book into His hands, and began, right then, around 32 AD opening the seals. This is proven in Revelation 5. Rev. 4 & 5 form the context of the first seal and establish the time these first seals were opened.

Seal 1: the church taking the gospel to the nations. Circa: 32 AD.
Seals 2, 3, 4: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. Circa: approx 32 AD
Seal 5: was opened in time for Stephen's murder. Opened very soon after the church began.

These early martyrs were crying out, wondering how long it would be before God would judge their murders. They were told they would have to wait until the very last church age martyr. The very next event John wrote was the 6th seal START of the judgment the martyrs were asking about.

Therefore, the church has been waiting at the 5th seal all this time, waiting for that final martyr. What will cause the final church age martyr? The PRETRIB RAPTURE will end the church age, and WRATH as in the Day of His Wrath will follow as back to back events.

As further proof that the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seals, John SAW the just-raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal - as the great crowd, too large to number.

So far, we see that Paul in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 fit perfectly with John in Revelation. The rapture just before the 6th seal, and the TRIBULATION or 70th week begining at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

This is why MILLIONS of believers are pretrib: it is scriptural.
Summary: 6 always comes BEFORE 7 in counting. That is why the rapture is PRETRIB.

Part of the problem is that some of these arguments key on certain words like "wrath." In reality, words like "wrath" depend upon the context in which they are used. There is a difference between mentioning "wrath" as "eternal judgment" and mentioning "wrath" as an outpouring of judgment upon Antichrist.

For example, I'm already saved from God's eternal wrath by accepting Christ's Salvation. But that doesn't mean that various forms of God's wrath are not expressed as judgment against the Antichrist. Both are true!

So obviously, those who are saved get saved before eternal judgment comes upon them. And if they are to be saved in the present age, it's going to be before Antichrist is judged, because Christ comes back at the judgment of Antichrist!

But to say that Christians are delivered prior to the judgment of Antichrist is misleading. It indicates there is a time scheme separating Christians from the time in which Antichrist is judged, and I don't believe that's so.

I believe Christians are here until Christ returns because Paul clearly said some of us will be alive and remain until his Coming. That means Christians are here at the same time Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist, even though they are *saved from eternal wrath* before Antichrist is destroyed and judged.

 

[iamlamad]

...

The problem with this is, I don't believe Daniel's 70th Week has anything to do with the book of Revelation at all! It was fulfilled at Christ's 1st Coming.

And you believe this, when Daniel gave us two verses showing a 3 1/2 year period of time, and John in Revelation shows us 5 more: two given as 42 months, two given as 1260 days and one given as Daniel did, in "times" or years. All of these are a 3 1/2 year period of time that is the LAST HALF of the 70th week, all of it still future to us today.

One day I was just minding my own business, reading Daniel 9:27, and when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst," SUDDENLY God spoke: it sounding like it was audible - that anyone in the room would have heard it. He said:

"You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."

I was instantly "in the Spirit" and could not answer. But my spirit man answered and asked: "How would I find that?" He answered:

Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"

When He said that, I suddenly knew WHY I could find the entire week clearly marked: God would use the same MARKER for the beginning and end of the week as He used for the midpoint. That came as a word of knowledge.

WE find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, in chapters 11, 12, and 13. These are therefore midpoint chapters. I found the exact midpoint, marked with the 7th Trumpet. You will notice, very soon after the 7th trumpet is sounded, those in Judea begin to flee, 12:6.

You said, "I don't believe Daniel's 70th Week has anything to do with the book of Revelation at all!" All I can add is, your thinking about Revelation is vastly different than Jesus' thinking. He showed me that the entire 70th week is in Revelation, from chapter 8 to chapter 16.

This 70th week is for Daniel's people, not for the church. Daniel 12 tells us God's purpose is to completely shatter their power.

One thing I wonder about: how could you come to believe Revelation was fulfilled at Christ's first coming, when John received this vision around 95 AD and was told God would show him "things to come?"

 

[iamlamad]

Part of the problem is that some of these arguments key on certain words like "wrath." In reality, words like "wrath" depend upon the context in which they are used. There is a difference between mentioning "wrath" as "eternal judgment" and mentioning "wrath" as an outpouring of judgment upon Antichrist.

For example, I'm already saved from God's eternal wrath by accepting Christ's Salvation. But that doesn't mean that various forms of God's wrath are not expressed as judgment against the Antichrist. Both are true!

So obviously, those who are saved get saved before eternal judgment comes upon them. And if they are to be saved in the present age, it's going to be before Antichrist is judged, because Christ comes back at the judgment of Antichrist!

But to say that Christians are delivered prior to the judgment of Antichrist is misleading. It indicates there is a time scheme separating Christians from the time in which Antichrist is judged, and I don't believe that's so.

I believe Christians are here until Christ returns because Paul clearly said some of us will be alive and remain until his Coming. That means Christians are here at the same time Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist, even though they are *saved from eternal wrath* before Antichrist is destroyed and judged.

First, Paul was the only NT writer that received a revelation about the rapture. Therefore, we should obtain most of our information about the rapture from Paul. Paul told us the catching up of those who are alive and in Christ was a MYSTERY until it was revealed to Him. That tells me again that we are not going to find any other scriptures in the NT about the catching up of the church anywhere else but in Paul's letters. However, there are other scriptures that can be applied to the church, such as John 14.

Paul had a lot to say about wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This tells us that God's wrath will come in the future, but the church will be delivered from it.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This tells us, while others have appointments with His wrath, the church will not. Further, Paul wrote this in his classic rapture passage, telling us that the time of God's wrath is somehow connected to the rapture. While we get "salvation" they get "sudden destruction." There can be little doubt that this sudden destruction is connected with God's wrath. All this tells me that God's wrath will begin as soon as the church age ends. Pre-wrathers have figured it the same way.

When we read Revelation, we find the 7 churches, obviously church age, we find John's vision starts before the church age, while Christ was on the earth or under the earth (Revelation 4) then His ascension and the Holy Spirit sent down (chapter 5) then the early church age during the first seals, and the 5th seal going until the end of the church age, then the 6th seal starting God's wrath with the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord.

From Isaiah we learn that the Day of the Lord will come with wrath and fierce anger to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Then we notice that the trumpet judgments do exactly that: God begins to systematically destroy the earth and take 1/3 of the sinners from off the planet. (Trumpet 6).

I find Paul and Revelation fit hand in glove. Did you notice that John begins the Day of His wrath long before He sees the Antichrist Beast rising?

As I read Revelation, I find the Day of the Lord is pointing to the Gentile world, but the 70th week is pointed at Israel.

 

[iamlamad]

...
So obviously, those who are saved get saved before eternal judgment comes upon them. And if they are to be saved in the present age, it's going to be before Antichrist is judged, because Christ comes back at the judgment of Antichrist!

But to say that Christians are delivered prior to the judgment of Antichrist is misleading. It indicates there is a time scheme separating Christians from the time in which Antichrist is judged, and I don't believe that's so.

I believe Christians are here until Christ returns because Paul clearly said some of us will be alive and remain until his Coming. That means Christians are here at the same time Christ comes back to destroy Antichrist, even though they are *saved from eternal wrath* before Antichrist is destroyed and judged.

What you are missing is that Paul's "coming" is before wrath, while Matthew 24's coming and the Revelation 19 coming is AFTER wrath. They must be talking about two very different comings. In Paul's coming Christ comes only to the air and is hidden in a cloud, while in Matthew 24 coming, after the tribulation of those days, "every eye will see Him." In Paul's coming, He is coming FOR His saints, while in the Matthew 24 coming He is coming WITH His saints.

Where in Revelation is the Man of sin Revealed as the Antichrist Beast? That would be when He enters the temple and starts the abomination that will lead to desolation. That is in chapter 11 of Revelation. Did you not notice that the Great crowd, too large to number, was seen in heaven in chapter 7? That is four chapters and 3 1/2 years before the man of sin will enter the temple.

WHEN in John's timeline will Christ return to destroy the Antichrist Beast? That would be in Revelation 19. That will be over 7 years AFTER the church was seen safely in heaven as the great crowd too large to number.

I find it strange, everywhere I look, I find evidence of the pretrib rapture and wonder why others do not see it. I think where many miss the truth is they try to morph two FUTURE comings of Christ into ONE coming. It does not work.

 

[iamlamad]

I know a little Greek, and yes, I've studied it. It generally refers to a falling away--not a Rapture. But the context is primary. I realize many Pretribbers try to read "the catching away of the Church" into "apostasia," but it doesn't work for me. Sorry!

I will agree, it generally refers to a departing...in one place it was used as a departing from Moses. The word apostasia does not specify what is being departed from. That is why in the other passage, Moses was added. In the King James, they were falling away, but did not say what they were falling away from. Here is how apostasia was translated before the KJV.

Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion.” (Tyndale Translation, 1534)

Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion. (Coverdale Bible, 1535)

Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion. (Cranmer Great Bible, 1539)

Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon] (Matthew’s Bible 1549)

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition. (Beza Bible, 1565)

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition. (Geneva Bible, 1575)

Since in verse 3b, the man of sin is revealed, and since verses 6-8 tell us HOW he will be revealed, then the only solution is that somewhere in 3a the restrainer has been taken out of th away.

I can find no other possibility of anything taken out of the way or having departed in 3a other than in the word apostasia.

That leaves only TWO possibilities: either enough people "fall away" (let's suppose they fall away from God) that the Holy Spirit will not have enough people left to work through to restrain or hold back the revealing, OR the sudden departing of the church will take place as in the rapture.

I can easily see people after the rapture, searching the scriptures to find out what just happened, and saying: AHA! That is what Paul was meaning by apostasia! Remember, it is THE apostasia. What Paul must have had in mind is something NO ONE COULD MISS.

If Paul really meant a falling away from God, how would anyone know when enough had fallen away to mean THE falling away? The only way I could see this fit would be if there was a massive falling away in ONE DAY or one week. Only then would it be significant. Also what I find, when people are falling away here in the US and in Europe, MORE people are coming to the Lord in Africa and China, so the church is growing, not shrinking.

In short, I see a very good reason to consider Paul's use of Apostasia as the departing of the church. We will have to ask Him when we get there!

 

[iamlamad]

If nearly all of the Bible is no longer applicable during the 42 months of the beast and salvation is dependent only on whether or not a person gets the mark then yes I can see how the believers are overcome.

However I think this is an impossibility because of verses such as Hebrews 13:5-6 I will never leave thee nor forsake thee … I will not fear what man shall do unto me. I personally don’t think this verse is meant for this age only and at some future point believers will be forsaken and fear what will happen.

All I can say is, Daniel and John in Revelation tell us very specifically that during the 42 months of the Beast's authority believers will be overcome.

One might (and probably should) ask, "how can this be" when we have been given authority over the devil. I am reminded of what happened a few years ago: a dozen believers with their arms tied behind their back, lined up and beheaded. It is a sad fact that has been repeated countless times since Stephen was murdered. Why didn't God rescue them? We will have to ask Him when we see Him. All I can say is, we live in the devil's world. God never promised a rapture every time a believer was captured.

One thing we know FOR SURE: the devil does not have the power to kill our spirit person inside or to force us to change what we believe. I am convinced, most of those who will be captured by the Beast and His armies will refuse his mark and lose their life.

This is a guess and only a guess. God chose not to tell us. It is my guess that the world wants a world WITHOUT GOD. So God will give them what they think they want: for 42 months, God is going to turn His back, so to speak, on the world so the entire world will know what a world without God will be like. Very soon they will learn a valuable lesson! It is only a guess.

 

[rwb]

Daniel 7:22 says judgment is given to the saints and the time came that the saints possess the kingdom. In Daniel 7:27 we get a little more clarification, it says the kingdom shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High.

It’s not all the saints that get the kingdom, it’s a group of people from the saints of God that get the kingdom. In Deuteronomy 14:2, regarding the entire nation of Israel, For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. This is basically the definition of what a saint is.

So if we look at Daniel 7:27 and replace the word saints with the word Israel we come up with this, not all Israel which are of Israel get the kingdom of God.

So the true Israel, true believers, saints are given the kingdom while national Israel, those who believe in their linage and law, saints are overcome and don’t get the kingdom.

The woman who flees into the wilderness in Revelation 12 is saved, I think we are in agreement on this, but woman isn’t specifically called the saints.

While I would agree that the 3.5 years, 1260 days, and time times and 1/2 time could all be pointing to the same period of time, I don’t necessarily think that has to be the case. I don’t think all the instances where we see this can all fit into just one half of the seventieth week.

The saints that possessed the Kingdom of heaven are those Old Covenant saints who believed the prophesy about the Messiah coming. They are the faithful of old going with Christ after His resurrection to heaven. Now since Christ came and emptied the place in the grave before Christ came, called Abraham's bosom, now all believers leave our physical body and go as living (spirit) soul to heaven where we wait until time shall be no more for this earth.

 

[iamlamad]

The Bible is written from the perspective of a believer, can you explain under what circumstances would a believer be considered to be overcome?

I think it is easy to see if we consider there is a physical world and a spiritual world. When a saint is murdered, they are overcome physically, in the natural realm. Since they are born again, their spirit will go to heaven. In the realm of the spirit, according to Paul, that is GAIN.

The only way a saint can be overcome in the realm of the spirit is if they get so far into sin that they CHOOSE to turn away from God and despise the urging of the Holy Spirit.