Daniel 7 helps prove when Revelation 20:4 is meaning

[DavidPT]

First lets start here.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Compare---And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies(Revelation 13:5)---with---And he shall speak great words against the most High(Daniel 7:25)

Compare---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)---with---the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them(Daniel 7:21)---and shall wear out the saints of the most High(Daniel 7:25)

Therefore, it shouldn't taken a rocket scientist to figure out that---in Daniel 7:25, this---and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time---is meaning this in Revelation 13:5---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

a time and times and the dividing of time is meaning 1 + 2 + 1/2. 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 of a year = 3 and 1/2 years. 3 and 1/2 years equal 42 months.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

According to verse 21 and 25, the beast per Revelation 13 makes war with the saints, and prevails against them, thus wears out the saints of the most High, and that they are given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, obviously meaning Revelation 13:5 and this 42 months recorded in that verse, until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, meaning Revelation 19 and 20.

This meaning Revelation 19---the Ancient of days came(Daniel 7:22), thus when the beast and fp are taken alive and cast into the LOF. This, meaning Revelation 20:4---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22)

If we place the time of Daniel 7:22 to be meaning anything involving the first advent in the first century, that means we have to place what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 to be meaning a time prior to that. Nothing involving the first century had this occurring first, meaning verse 21, followed by that of what is recorded in verse 22.

Even in 70 AD, that couldn't possibly be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22). Neither could His birth or His death and resurrection be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22).

Since this would mean that what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 would have to precede His birth, or have to precede His death and resurrection, the fact verse 22 can't even get fulfilled until after verse 21 is fufilled first. The chronology is crystal clear. The events involving verse 21 precede the events involving verse 22.

The only thing that can possibly be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22)--is Revelation 20:4.

To place Revelation 20:4 at the time of the cross is to place the events involving Daniel 7:21 prior to the time of the cross. To place Revelation 20:4 after the 2nd coming is to place the events involving Daniel 7:21 prior to that of the 2nd coming, exactly where they logically fit.

Therefore, Daniel 7:21-22 clearly proves that Revelation 20:4 is meaning after the 2nd coming, not prior to it, unless one can prove that Daniel 7:22 has zero connection with that ofRevelation 20:4. Because, if it is connected, one can't have Revelation 20:4 meaning the time of the cross, since this makes nonsense out of Daniel 7:21 by making that mean before the time of the cross. Because, clearly, what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 precedes what is recorded in Daniel 7:22.

 

[rwb]

First lets start here.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Compare---And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies(Revelation 13:5)---with---And he shall speak great words against the most High(Daniel 7:25)

Compare---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)---with---the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them(Daniel 7:21)---and shall wear out the saints of the most High(Daniel 7:25)

Therefore, it shouldn't taken a rocket scientist to figure out that---in Daniel 7:25, this---and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time---is meaning this in Revelation 13:5---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

a time and times and the dividing of time is meaning 1 + 2 + 1/2. 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 of a year = 3 and 1/2 years. 3 and 1/2 years equal 42 months.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

According to verse 21 and 25, the beast per Revelation 13 makes war with the saints, and prevails against them, thus wears out the saints of the most High, and that they are given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, obviously meaning Revelation 13:5 and this 42 months recorded in that verse, until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, meaning Revelation 19 and 20.

This meaning Revelation 19---the Ancient of days came(Daniel 7:22), thus when the beast and fp are taken alive and cast into the LOF. This, meaning Revelation 20:4---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22)

If we place the time of Daniel 7:22 to be meaning anything involving the first advent in the first century, that means we have to place what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 to be meaning a time prior to that. Nothing involving the first century had this occurring first, meaning verse 21, followed by that of what is recorded in verse 22.

Even in 70 AD, that couldn't possibly be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22). Neither could His birth or His death and resurrection be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22).

Since this would mean that what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 would have to precede His birth, or have to precede His death and resurrection, the fact verse 22 can't even get fulfilled until after verse 21 is fufilled first. The chronology is crystal clear. The events involving verse 21 precede the events involving verse 22.

The only thing that can possibly be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22)--is Revelation 20:4.

To place Revelation 20:4 at the time of the cross is to place the events involving Daniel 7:21 prior to the time of the cross. To place Revelation 20:4 after the 2nd coming is to place the events involving Daniel 7:21 prior to that of the 2nd coming, exactly where they logically fit.

Therefore, Daniel 7:21-22 clearly proves that Revelation 20:4 is meaning after the 2nd coming, not prior to it, unless one can prove that Daniel 7:22 has zero connection with that ofRevelation 20:4. Because, if it is connected, one can't have Revelation 20:4 meaning the time of the cross, since this makes nonsense out of Daniel 7:21 by making that mean before the time of the cross. Because, clearly, what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 precedes what is recorded in Daniel 7:22.

Are you saying there were no saints of God being persecuted before the first advent of Christ? If you agree there were saints of old, why would you think it is only after the resurrection and ascension of Christ that saints are persecuted on the earth? Who are the firstfruits of Christ who had died before His coming if not Old Covenant saints? Would not they be the ones who possess the Kingdom of heaven with Christ when He ascended to the Ancient of Days?

 

[DavidPT]

Are you saying there were no saints of God being persecuted before the first advent of Christ? If you agree there were saints of old, why would you think it is only after the resurrection and ascension of Christ that saints are persecuted on the earth? Who are the firstfruits of Christ who had died before His coming if not Old Covenant saints? Would not they be the ones who possess the Kingdom of heaven with Christ when He ascended to the Ancient of Days?

Roger, clearly saints were already being perscecuted and some even killed, prior to the first century and the first advent. The book of Revelation is prophecy. Prophesies predict the future. Therfore, what is recorded in Revelation 13 concerning the beast reigning 42 months, which is also recorded in Daniel 7, couldn't possibly be involving OT times prior to the first advent. Look what it says in Revelation 13, per the following.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


This says---and them that dwell in heaven. And if that includes humans after they have passed on and before they are bodily resurrected, no humans could have possibly already gone to heaven and be dwelling there before Christ was born, and before He died and rose from the dead. Verse 6 indicates that the beast is doing this during it's 42 month reign, that according to verse 5. It's one thing to insist it's 42 month reign is meaning the entire NT gospel era, if that is not stretching it enough already, but it's another thing for one to insist that this 42 months parallel all of human history, beginning with Adam. Not that anyone is insisting that, but it would have to mean that if the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13:5 is also involving saints that were persecuted and martyred during OT times before Christ was born.

The beast and false prophet obviously have to be alive and active in the end of this age in order to be taken and cast into the LOF in the end of this age when Christ returns. This tells us where the ending of the 42 months belong. So now all we need to know is where the beginning of it's 42 month reign belongs. Even if one could convincingly argue that the beginning of it's 42 month reign began in the 1st century, well, the fact it doesn't conclude until the end of this age, it still means Daniel 7:22 is fulfilled at the end of this age following the conclusion of the 42 reign of the beast, still making this part--and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom--and if meaning Revelation 20:4, to be meaning post the 2nd coming, not prior to it instead.

To place it prior to the 2nd coming is to make nonsense out of the crystal clear chronology involving Daniel 7:21 in relation to Daniel 7:22. For the sake of argument, let's assume we all agree that this part---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---is pertaining to Revelation 20:4.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Revelation 20:4).

Does or does not this place the time of Revelation 20:4 after that of Daniel 7:21, and after that of the coming recorded in verse 22?

 

[RandyPNW]

I gave you the winner's crown from the start because what you're saying is so obviously true. In fact, I will go so far as to say that the truths in the book of Revelation are stacked upon the foundation of Dan 7. They directly correspond to one another. It is future and eschatological. It starts with the Roman Empire and ends with the Little Horn/Antichrist and the coming of the Son of Man with God's Kingdom.

The several references to the 3.5 years in the book of Revelation is derived from Dan 7 and the "time, times, and half a time" of Antichrist's rule. Paul's teaching comes from Dan 7. The Apostle John in 1 John references the "Antichrist" based on the Little Horn who opposes the coming Kingdom of the Son of Man.

I suppose some wish to confuse all of this for the purposes of some theological system?

 

[claninja]

First lets start here.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Compare---And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies(Revelation 13:5)---with---And he shall speak great words against the most High(Daniel 7:25)

Compare---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)---with---the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them(Daniel 7:21)---and shall wear out the saints of the most High(Daniel 7:25)

Therefore, it shouldn't taken a rocket scientist to figure out that---in Daniel 7:25, this---and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time---is meaning this in Revelation 13:5---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

a time and times and the dividing of time is meaning 1 + 2 + 1/2. 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 of a year = 3 and 1/2 years. 3 and 1/2 years equal 42 months.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

According to verse 21 and 25, the beast per Revelation 13 makes war with the saints, and prevails against them, thus wears out the saints of the most High, and that they are given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, obviously meaning Revelation 13:5 and this 42 months recorded in that verse, until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, meaning Revelation 19 and 20.

This meaning Revelation 19---the Ancient of days came(Daniel 7:22), thus when the beast and fp are taken alive and cast into the LOF. This, meaning Revelation 20:4---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22)

If we place the time of Daniel 7:22 to be meaning anything involving the first advent in the first century, that means we have to place what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 to be meaning a time prior to that. Nothing involving the first century had this occurring first, meaning verse 21, followed by that of what is recorded in verse 22.

Even in 70 AD, that couldn't possibly be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22). Neither could His birth or His death and resurrection be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22).

Since this would mean that what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 would have to precede His birth, or have to precede His death and resurrection, the fact verse 22 can't even get fulfilled until after verse 21 is fufilled first. The chronology is crystal clear. The events involving verse 21 precede the events involving verse 22.

The only thing that can possibly be the fulfillment of this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Daniel 7:22)--is Revelation 20:4.

To place Revelation 20:4 at the time of the cross is to place the events involving Daniel 7:21 prior to the time of the cross. To place Revelation 20:4 after the 2nd coming is to place the events involving Daniel 7:21 prior to that of the 2nd coming, exactly where they logically fit.

Therefore, Daniel 7:21-22 clearly proves that Revelation 20:4 is meaning after the 2nd coming, not prior to it, unless one can prove that Daniel 7:22 has zero connection with that ofRevelation 20:4. Because, if it is connected, one can't have Revelation 20:4 meaning the time of the cross, since this makes nonsense out of Daniel 7:21 by making that mean before the time of the cross. Because, clearly, what is recorded in Daniel 7:21 precedes what is recorded in Daniel 7:22.

you’ve left out the general interpretation of the entirety of Daniel 7: vs 17-18: four kingdoms but the saints receiving the kingdom forever.

“These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever”

Contextually, Daniel 7:23-27 cannot be understood as beyond the scope of time from vs 17-18.

 

[RandyPNW]

you’ve left out the general interpretation of the entirety of Daniel 7: vs 17-18: four kingdoms but the saints receiving the kingdom forever.

“These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever”

Contextually, Daniel 7:23-27 cannot be understood as beyond the scope of time from vs 17-18.

What on earth are you talking about? The 4 Kingdoms lead up to the 4th, which will see the Kingdom of God. The 4th Kingdom is traditionally understood to be the Roman Empire, the one that crucified Christ, killed some of the apostles, and persecuted the Early Church.

The Roman Empire also was the nation that received the Kingdom of God from Israel, because the Roman Empire was converted to Christianity and became a Christian State. From Rome came modern Europe, which will ultimately see a complete apostasy from Christianity.

Therefore, Dan 7 states that this 4th Kingdom will yield the Man of Sin, the Little Horn, who opposes the Kingdom of God that the Son of Man is coming from heaven to bring. Is the account of the 4 Kingdoms related to its eschatological end? Of course! But the ancient history leads to modern history and to the eschatological end of the present age.

 

[DavidPT]

you’ve left out the general interpretation of the entirety of Daniel 7: vs 17-18: four kingdoms but the saints receiving the kingdom forever.

“These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever”

Contextually, Daniel 7:23-27 cannot be understood as beyond the scope of time from vs 17-18.

Could you expand on this some? I'm not fully grasping the point you are trying to make.

As to verse 18, does not verses 21-22 give us the timing?


Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Obviously, they don't yet possess the kingdom while the little horn is making war with them, and prevailing against them, if it is not until the Ancient of Days comes, and as a result of that judgment is then given at that time to the saints of the most High; and that the time has arrived that the saints possessed the kingdom.

In regards to verses 19-21, and verses 23-25, verse 18 is not fulfilled yet. Verse 18 is meaning after all of that, as is verse 27. Verses 18, 22, and 27 do not parallel anything involving verses 19-21, and verses 23-25.

Verse 27 then says this---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. And that this is meaning after the saints possess the kingdom. It even says so in this same verse---And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Where we are told in verse 22 when that occurs.

How can the saints possess the kingdom prior to the 2nd coming if the 42 month reign of the beast is what precedes the 2nd coming, and that until that reign has ended first, and that the Ancient of days comes, apparently meaning Christ in this verse, the time has not arrived yet, that the saints possess the kingdom?

Even if you don't agree that anything in Daniel 7 is involving the 2nd coming, you still can't have the saints already in possession of the kingdom before the beast is given to the burning flame. That according to the text. Which then means if you don't agree that anything in Daniel 7 involves the 2nd coming, you then have to explain how someone is given to the burning flame and when exactly that this happened. If you instead agree that Daniel 7 involves the 2nd coming, there you go then, because apparently verse 22 is involving what verses 9-12 are involving.

The reason verse 22 has to be involving what verses 9-12 are involving, is simple. Obviously, until the Ancient of days comes first, the beast has not yet been given to the burning flame if it is seen making war with the saints. If the burning flame is meaning the LOF, Revelation 19 records that the beast is cast into the LOF at that time. Daniel 7:9-12, though involving judgment post the 2nd coming, it can't be meaning the great white throne judgment, based on what verse 12 records, since that is meaning, and I realize some interpreters dispute it, during when the little horn is given to the burning flames.

No ones lives will be prolonged during that of the great white throne judgment. Therefore, verses 9-12 can't be meaning that judgment, and has to be involving Revelation 19 through Revelation 20:1-6 instead. Which means, pertaining to verse 12, their lives are prolonged until God devours them with fire after the thousand years during satan's little season

 

[claninja]

What on earth are you talking about? The 4 Kingdoms lead up to the 4th, which will see the Kingdom of God. The 4th Kingdom is traditionally understood to be the Roman Empire, the one that crucified Christ, killed some of the apostles, and persecuted the Early Church.

The Roman Empire also was the nation that received the Kingdom of God from Israel, because the Roman Empire was converted to Christianity and became a Christian State. From Rome came modern Europe, which will ultimately see a complete apostasy from Christianity.

Therefore, Dan 7 states that this 4th Kingdom will yield the Man of Sin, the Little Horn, who opposes the Kingdom of God that the Son of Man is coming from heaven to bring. Is the account of the 4 Kingdoms related to its eschatological end? Of course! But the ancient history leads to modern history and to the eschatological end of the present age.

It’s not that difficult.

The “general” interpretation of the entire Vision is found in vs 17-18: four kingdoms but the saints would possess the kingdom forever.

Daniel asks for more specifics on the fourth kingdom in vs 19-22

the angel provides a more specific interpretation of the fourth beast, it’s 10 horns, and little horn in Vs 23-27. Following the destruction of the little horn, the saints possess the kingdom forever.

To recap:

general interpretation of entire vision: four kingdoms but the saints possess the kingdom forever

specific interpretation: during the fourth kingdom, the 10 horns are 10 kings, the little horn rises, persecutes the saints, and is destroyed, the the saints possess the kingdom forever.


My point: however you view the specific interpretation of vs 23-27, it cannot contextually go beyond the general interpretation of vs 17-18 and the fourth kingdom. Such would be “moving the goal posts back”, as we are way past four kingdoms now.

 

[claninja]

Could you expand on this some? I'm not fully grasping the point you are trying to make.

As to verse 18, does not verses 21-22 give us the timing?


Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Obviously, they don't yet possess the kingdom while the little horn is making war with them, and prevailing against them, if it is not until the Ancient of Days comes, and as a result of that judgment is then given at that time to the saints of the most High; and that the time has arrived that the saints possessed the kingdom.

In regards to verses 19-21, and verses 23-25, verse 18 is not fulfilled yet. Verse 18 is meaning after all of that, as is verse 27. Verses 18, 22, and 27 do not parallel anything involving verses 19-21, and verses 23-25.

Verse 27 then says this---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. And that this is meaning after the saints possess the kingdom. It even says so in this same verse---And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Where we are told in verse 22 when that occurs.

How can the saints possess the kingdom prior to the 2nd coming if the 42 month reign of the beast is what precedes the 2nd coming, and that until that reign has ended first, and that the Ancient of days comes, apparently meaning Christ in this verse, the time has not arrived yet, that the saints possess the kingdom?

Even if you don't agree that anything in Daniel 7 is involving the 2nd coming, you still can't have the saints already in possession of the kingdom before the beast is given to the burning flame. That according to the text. Which then means if you don't agree that anything in Daniel 7 involves the 2nd coming, you then have to explain how someone is given to the burning flame and when exactly that this happened. If you instead agree that Daniel 7 involves the 2nd coming, there you go then, because apparently verse 22 is involving what verses 9-12 are involving.

The reason verse 22 has to be involving what verses 9-12 are involving, is simple. Obviously, until the Ancient of days comes first, the beast has not yet been given to the burning flame if it is seen making war with the saints. If the burning flame is meaning the LOF, Revelation 19 records that the beast is cast into the LOF at that time. Daniel 7:9-12, though involving judgment post the 2nd coming, it can't be meaning the great white throne judgment, based on what verse 12 records, since that is meaning, and I realize some interpreters dispute it, during when the little horn is given to the burning flames.

No ones lives will be prolonged during that of the great white throne judgment. Therefore, verses 9-12 can't be meaning that judgment, and has to be involving Revelation 19 through Revelation 20:1-6 instead. Which means, pertaining to verse 12, their lives are prolonged until God devours them with fire after the thousand years during satan's little season

Whatever your view is on Daniel 7:23-27, and the interpretation of the little horn, it can’t go beyond the fourth kingdom due to the general interpretation of the entire vision provided in vs 17-18.

The point: the 10 horns and little horn cannot contextually exist beyond the fourth beastly kingdom due to vs 17-18.

so who is the fourth kingdom?

 

[rwb]

Roger, clearly saints were already being perscecuted and some even killed, prior to the first century and the first advent. The book of Revelation is prophecy. Prophesies predict the future. Therfore, what is recorded in Revelation 13 concerning the beast reigning 42 months, which is also recorded in Daniel 7, couldn't possibly be involving OT times prior to the first advent. Look what it says in Revelation 13, per the following.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

This says---and them that dwell in heaven. And if that includes humans after they have passed on and before they are bodily resurrected, no humans could have possibly already gone to heaven and be dwelling there before Christ was born, and before He died and rose from the dead. Verse 6 indicates that the beast is doing this during it's 42 month reign, that according to verse 5. It's one thing to insist it's 42 month reign is meaning the entire NT gospel era, if that is not stretching it enough already, but it's another thing for one to insist that this 42 months parallel all of human history, beginning with Adam. Not that anyone is insisting that, but it would have to mean that if the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13:5 is also involving saints that were persecuted and martyred during OT times before Christ was born.

The beast and false prophet obviously have to be alive and active in the end of this age in order to be taken and cast into the LOF in the end of this age when Christ returns. This tells us where the ending of the 42 months belong. So now all we need to know is where the beginning of it's 42 month reign belongs. Even if one could convincingly argue that the beginning of it's 42 month reign began in the 1st century, well, the fact it doesn't conclude until the end of this age, it still means Daniel 7:22 is fulfilled at the end of this age following the conclusion of the 42 reign of the beast, still making this part--and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom--and if meaning Revelation 20:4, to be meaning post the 2nd coming, not prior to it instead.

To place it prior to the 2nd coming is to make nonsense out of the crystal clear chronology involving Daniel 7:21 in relation to Daniel 7:22. For the sake of argument, let's assume we all agree that this part---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---is pertaining to Revelation 20:4.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom(Revelation 20:4).

Does or does not this place the time of Revelation 20:4 after that of Daniel 7:21, and after that of the coming recorded in verse 22?

I believe Daniel's dreams, much like John's visions show the end of the Old Covenant before Christ, and then when Christ ascends to heaven to receive a Kingdom how redemptive history of this earth comes to its final end with the utter destruction of the beasts.

The first three beasts (1-6) represent enemies of Daniel's people, called saints belonging to the Covenant people of God (both saints & unbelievers as one people). These three beasts are powerful monarchies from Babylonia, Medo-Persian, and the Graeco-Macedonian. The leopard with four wings, said to represent swiftness, and four heads are believed to be the kingdoms of Syria, Egypt, Macedonia and Asia Minor. In Chapter 8 this beast is as the rough he-goat with a notable horn (Alexander the Great) and the little horn (Antiochus Epiphanes). These three beasts represent world powers over the Gentile nations that fight for world dominance. One commentary says, "God tells us that their moral character is beastly. The lion devours, the bear crushes, the leopard springs upon its prey."

Then Daniel describes a fourth beast that is commonly believed to represent Rome with the two legs of iron and the ten horns with the little horn between has the same meaning as the ten toes on the feet of the image. Daniel saw the same monarchies in chapter 2 while revealing the dream of Nebuchadnezzar. That these world powers are described as beasts indicates the influence of Satan.

Daniel 2:37-45 (KJV) Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Daniel's dream takes us to the first century and the advent of the promised Messiah coming in time called The Day of the Lord. Through Christ all of these kingdoms shall be cast down, all the beasts slain, and their bodies given to the burning flames at the end of days (GWT). The monarchies, represented as beasts, have their lives prolonged for a season and time. So, the advent of Christ ascending to heaven after His resurrection is only the beginning of His Kingdom being built and will not be complete until time shall be no more on this earth.

The fourth beast of vs. 21 representing Rome made war against Daniel's people, saints of old called the Old Covenant people of Israel. We all know the history the Roman Army prevailed, and Jerusalem and the temple were utterly destroyed. But Christ had already died on the cross and resurrected from the grave. Therefore, the Covenant people of old, who believed and died in faith were the saints who possessed the Kingdom of heaven through the ascension of Christ. Christ has already gone there and prepared a place for them. They are the firstfruits of the Lord, being Old Covenant faithful saints.

The fourth beast, which in Daniel's time represented Rome is after the advent of Christ are "the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time", who receive power and authority from the dragon.

These will be the beasts John sees in his visions in Revelation 13. They belonged to the fourth beast, that shall become the fourth kingdom upon the earth and shall devour the whole earth.

Daniel 7:23-28 (KJV) Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

Revelation 13:1-4 (KJV) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5-8 (KJV) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The forty-two months symbolize time which spans the entire Messianic era. It is not a consecutive forty-two months; any more than the 1260 days are consecutive days given the two witnesses (Church of Old & New). The times recorded by John in Revelation are symbolic and represent time, times and half of time throughout this age likened to a thousand years. The time given the beast in time, times and dividing of time given to defeat or overcome the saints as the Church proclaims the Gospel unto all the earth. The 1260 days given the witnesses within time, times and half/dividing of time likened to a thousand years of ALL time given this Messianic era to build the Kingdom of heaven as they take the Gospel unto all the earth. This time on earth is equally divided between the forces of good and the forces of evil. With Satan receiving a "little season" of time after the thousand years have expired. This so Christ could once and forever utterly destroy through the fire from heaven every enemy still left alive at His coming.

Both Rev 20 and Daniel 7 speak of martyred saints possessing the Kingdom of heaven as living (spirit) souls through the advent of Christ resurrecting from the dead and ascending to heaven. These saints of both Old and New Covenant body were not left in the grave but rescued from the grave by the power of Christ defeating death and binding Satan.

 

[DavidPT]

so who is the fourth kingdom?

I don't have all of that ironed out yet, as to exactly who the 4th kingdom is. But even if I did or thought I did, other interpreters might not take that to mean who I do. Thus it is obviously debatable no matter who one decides the 4th kingdom is meaning.

But what I do somewhat have ironed out, is this. The fact the little horn recorded in Daniel 7:21 involves the 4th beast, the 4th kingdom, and that until the coming recorded in verse 22 happens first, and that it results in the little horn being given to the burning flame, the time involving the 4th kingdom has not already come and gone and can't already be gone before the coming recorded in Revelation 19 happens, since that coming is involving confronting this same little horn in Daniel 7:21.

Those of us who interpret Revelation 19 to be involving the 2nd coming, which includes many Amils, fully realize that the 4th kingdom has to be active in the end of this age if it is not until the 2nd coming that the little horn is then cast into the LOF, and that this little horn is clearly part of this 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


The 4th kingdom involves all of the following---the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them(meaning the horn per Daniel 7:21, meaning pertaining to the head that has a deadly wound and is healed--Revelation 13). And the fact the beast has 7 heads, one can sever one of it's heads and that this alone does not topple the entire beast. This is what we see taking place in Daniel 7:9-12. Only one of it's heads is being severed at the time, which means 6 of it's heads are allowed to continue living awhile longer, thus Daniel 7:12.

 

[claninja]

I don't have all of that ironed out yet, as to exactly who the 4th kingdom is. But even if I did or thought I did, other interpreters might not take that to mean who I do. Thus it is obviously debatable no matter who one decides the 4th kingdom is meaning.

But what I do somewhat have ironed out, is this. The fact the little horn recorded in Daniel 7:21 involves the 4th beast, the 4th kingdom, and that until the coming recorded in verse 22 happens first, and that it results in the little horn being given to the burning flame, the time involving the 4th kingdom has not already come and gone and can't already be gone before the coming recorded in Revelation 19 happens, since that coming is involving confronting this same little horn in Daniel 7:21.

Those of us who interpret Revelation 19 to be involving the 2nd coming, which includes many Amils, fully realize that the 4th kingdom has to be active in the end of this age if it is not until the 2nd coming that the little horn is then cast into the LOF, and that this little horn is clearly part of this 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


The 4th kingdom involves all of the following---the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them(meaning the horn per Daniel 7:21, meaning pertaining to the head that has a deadly wound and is healed--Revelation 13). And the fact the beast has 7 heads, one can sever one of it's heads and that this alone does not topple the entire beast. This is what we see taking place in Daniel 7:9-12. Only one of it's heads is being severed at the time, which means 6 of it's heads are allowed to continue living awhile longer, thus Daniel 7:12.

the early church fathers believed the fourth kingdom was Rome, the very kingdom they lived in, as historically: 1.) Babylon, 2.) Persia 3.) Greece 4.) Rome

"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves." - St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel.

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned." - Against Heresies 5.26.1

 

[DavidPT]

Through Christ all of these kingdoms shall be cast down, all the beasts slain, and their bodies given to the burning flames at the end of days (GWT).

That is already disagreeing with what Daniel 7:9-12 records. There is no way that Daniel is seeing the great white throne judgment, because if he was, instead of saying what he did in verse 12, which wouldn't remotely be relevant at this point if the GWTJ is in view, he would have instead said of the rest of the beasts, that they too were given to the burning flame at the time. Except he never said that.

Which would be totally preposterous, thus entirely out of context, that if verses 9-11 are meaning the great white throne judgment, why then do we need to know, in that context, of all things, what happened to the rest of the beasts thousands of years earlier? Who would care if verses 9-11 are involving the GWTJ? Like I pointed out, if the GWTJ is in view, we would not be told concerning the rest of the beasts, that their lives were prolonged for a season and time, we would be told concerning the rest of the beasts, that they too were given to the burning flame at that time.

Which means when the little horn is given to the burning flame, the rest of the beasts are allowed to continue living awhile longer after that. Something like that couldn't possibly fit the time of the GWTJ. The GWTJ is a one time event. And once it is finished there will never be another judgment like that ever again. But even if my interpretation of verse 12 is wrong, verse 12 still proves that verses 9-11 are not involving the GWTJ, the fact something like that would have zero relevance with that of the GWTJ, as to what happened to the rest of the beasts earlier in history. It would be a moot point, serving zero purpose, as to why we would need to know that if verses 9-11 are meaning the GWTJ.

 

[grafted branch]

According to verse 21 and 25, the beast per Revelation 13 makes war with the saints, and prevails against them, thus wears out the saints of the most High, and that they are given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, obviously meaning Revelation 13:5 and this 42 months recorded in that verse, until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, meaning Revelation 19 and 20.

One problem with all this is that on the one hand you have the saints given to the beast as a future event and on the other hand we have verses such as Hebrews 13:5-6 I will never leave thee or forsake thee and Matthew 16:18 the gates of hell will not prevail against the church; and we also need to consider 1 Corinthians 6:20 ye are bought with a price, therefore your body and spirit are God’s.

Looking at Daniel 7:25 do you think Christ is going to just hand over the saints to the beast at some point in the future?

 

[rwb]

That is already disagreeing with what Daniel 7:9-12 records. There is no way that Daniel is seeing the great white throne judgment, because if he was, instead of saying what he did in verse 12, which wouldn't remotely be relevant at this point if the GWTJ is in view, he would have instead said of the rest of the beasts, that they too were given to the burning flame at the time. Except he never said that.

Did Daniel literally see thrones cast down, or is Daniel describing things that have been and will be as visions from his dream? Daniel's dream shows him the beast will be destroyed in the burning flame in the future. We find confirmation of this FACT in Rev 19:20. When do you think the beast is slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame if not the GWT?

Daniel 7:9-12 (KJV) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Which would be totally preposterous, thus entirely out of context, that if verses 9-11 are meaning the great white throne judgment, why then do we need to know, in that context, of all things, what happened to the rest of the beasts thousands of years earlier? Who would care if verses 9-11 are involving the GWTJ? Like I pointed out, if the GWTJ is in view, we would not be told concerning the rest of the beasts, that their lives were prolonged for a season and time, we would be told concerning the rest of the beasts, that they too were given to the burning flame at that time.

Daniel is recording what he saw in his dream what will happen in the future. Verses 9-12 Daniel's dream shows him the thrones of the first three beasts cast down and the Ancient of Days seated on His throne in heaven after the three beasts no longer have the power they once had, which is what thrones being cast down symbolizes.

But there is still the fourth beast that shall come, and he will be more vicious and powerful than all the rest. He will be the beast given power and authority from the dragon from John's vision. Clearly Daniel's dream has him seeing what the end of these things shall be. Proof that Daniel is shown the GWTJ is the fact that Daniel sees books being opened. There is only one Judgment Day ending with flames of fire for those who are judged out of what is written in the books, and those whose names are not found in the book of life.

 

[DavidPT]

Looking at Daniel 7:25 do you think Christ is going to just hand over the saints to the beast at some point in the future?

I don't know why you are unable to grasp, that to be overcome by the beast the way Revelation 13:7 is meaning, this means to overcome the beast. Maybe you see that as a contradiction? What about when Christ went to the cross? Doesn't this mean He allowed His enemies to overcome Him in order for them to have put Him on the cross? Would anyone propose that this means, since Christ was overcome by His enemies, thus allowed them to kill Him, this means He never overcame then? Wonder why He indicated per the following that He did overcome?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[DavidPT]

Did Daniel literally see thrones cast down, or is Daniel describing things that have been and will be as visions from his dream? Daniel's dream shows him the beast will be destroyed in the burning flame in the future. We find confirmation of this FACT in Rev 19:20. When do you think the beast is slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame if not the GWT?

I tend to think the thrones are cast down on the earth, though I'm not dogmatic about that. One reason I think that is because, in order for the little horn to be given to the burning flame, the burning flame has to be where the beast is at the time, and that the beast would obviously not be in heaven.

The GWTJ involves the lost being raised from the dead then judged and sentenced. How would that be relevant to the beast? Nowhere in all of Revelation 20:12-15 does it mention the beast, the false prophet, and satan, being among the dead standing before God. That's because all 3 are already in the LOF at this point. To have Daniel 7:9-11 to be involving the GWTJ is not reasonable, based on the fact that Revelation 20 already has the little horn in the LOF before the GWTJ begins, and that nothing involving Revelation 20:12-15 is recording that the little horn is among the dead standing before God at the time. When the beast, the fp, and satan are cast into the LOF, those are different judgments that happen earlier.

If you still insist I'm wrong about this, how about pointing out in Revelation 20:12-15 where you see the little horn among those standing before God. Not to mention, nowhere in Daniel 7:9-11 does it mention any humans also being given to the burning flame at the time, nor does it even mention satan being given to the burning flame at the time. Why not if it is involving the great white throne judgment, meaning in regards to humans also being cast into the LOF at the time?

 

[grafted branch]

I don't know why you are unable to grasp, that to be overcome by the beast the way Revelation 13:7 is meaning, this means to overcome the beast. Maybe you see that as a contradiction? What about when Christ went to the cross? Doesn't this mean He allowed His enemies to overcome Him in order for them to have put Him on the cross? Would anyone propose that this means, since Christ was overcome by His enemies, thus allowed them to kill Him, this means He never overcame then?

So the saints overcome the beast while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints? Why would Romans 12:21 say be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good if being overcome by evil is ultimately a positive thing for believers? Shouldn’t it say go ahead and be overcome by evil, it’s a good thing for believers?

While you could say that from the perspective of the beast he does overcomes the saints, but if you go down that road then we have to question everything in the Bible with the idea of who’s perspective is it written from.

Wonder why He indicated per the following that He did overcome?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus willingly gave up his life according to John 10:18, no one overcame Him. Christ overcame to open the seven seals because He was worthy.

If we look at Revelation 3:21 with the idea that it could be written from an unbelievers perspective then it says the beast or those who are able to overcome the saints will be granted to sit with Christ in His throne because they overcame. We know for certain that can’t be true because the Bible is written from the perspective of the believer not unbelievers.

 

[iamlamad]

So the saints overcome the beast while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints? Why would Romans 12:21 say be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good if being overcome by evil is ultimately a positive thing for believers? Shouldn’t it say go ahead and be overcome by evil, it’s a good thing for believers?

While you could say that from the perspective of the beast he does overcomes the saints, but if you go down that road then we have to question everything in the Bible with the idea of who’s perspective is it written from.



Jesus willingly gave up his life according to John 10:18, no one overcame Him. Christ overcame to open the seven seals because He was worthy.

If we look at Revelation 3:21 with the idea that it could be written from an unbelievers perspective then it says the beast or those who are able to overcome the saints will be granted to sit with Christ in His throne because they overcame. We know for certain that can’t be true because the Bible is written from the perspective of the believer not unbelievers.

The Beast will overcome the saints by capturing them and then giving them a choice to either take the mark and be free, or lose their head. (The devil imagines many saints will choose the mark.)
The saints then get victory over the beast by refusing the mark and becoming martyrs.

In the end, the saints will end up with God forever and ever, while the Beast will end up in the lake of fire. Who really then overcame who? The saints turn out to be the ultimate winners.

 

[iamlamad]

I don't know why you are unable to grasp, that to be overcome by the beast the way Revelation 13:7 is meaning, this means to overcome the beast. Maybe you see that as a contradiction? What about when Christ went to the cross? Doesn't this mean He allowed His enemies to overcome Him in order for them to have put Him on the cross? Would anyone propose that this means, since Christ was overcome by His enemies, thus allowed them to kill Him, this means He never overcame then? Wonder why He indicated per the following that He did overcome?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne.

"it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them"

This means EXACTLY what it says: the beast will overcome the saints.

John then gives us more information: the beast will capture people, and force them to either choose to bow and receive a mark - or lose their heads. That is how saints will be "overcome."

On the other hand, the saints can gain victory over the Beast by refusing the mark, losing their head, becoming a martyr, and spending eternity with God.