Daniel 7 helps prove when Revelation 20:4 is meaning

[grafted branch]

The Beast will overcome the saints by capturing them and then giving them a choice to either take the mark and be free, or lose their head. (The devil imagines many saints will choose the mark.)
The saints then get victory over the beast by refusing the mark and becoming martyrs.

In the end, the saints will end up with God forever and ever, while the Beast will end up in the lake of fire. Who really then overcame who? The saints turn out to be the ultimate winners.

Why would that be considered as believers being overcome? What should a believer do? Romans 12:21 says be not overcome with evil. Will all the believers at this time disobey this verse and be overcome by the beast?

 

[DavidPT]

John then gives us more information: the beast will capture people, and force them to either choose to bow and receive a mark - or lose their heads. That is how saints will be "overcome."

For the most part I do agree. Which I guess could mean, as pertaining to the saints that are overcome, that some of them will choose the former(to bow and receive a mark), and that some of them will choose the latter(lose their heads), and not all of them like I have been assuming, will choose the latter.

Yet, there is this, though.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


This describes the very same things that happen to those involving Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 13:15. And the fact the 2Ws are then seen ascending to heaven after they rise from the dead, how is @grafted branch going to argue this verse, the fact they are overcome and still ascend to heaven, regardless?

 

[grafted branch]

This describes the very same things that happen to those involving Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 13:15. And the fact the 2Ws are then seen ascending to heaven after they rise from the dead, how is @grafted branch going to argue this verse, the fact they are overcome and still ascend to heaven, regardless?

I will answer that by saying the saints or Israel can be overcome but true believers can’t be overcome after the cross.

 

[rwb]

I tend to think the thrones are cast down on the earth, though I'm not dogmatic about that. One reason I think that is because, in order for the little horn to be given to the burning flame, the burning flame has to be where the beast is at the time, and that the beast would obviously not be in heaven.

Who are the beasts whose thrones are cast down according to Daniel? They are earthly empires under the power of the evil one, who lived and reigned before the advent of Christ. The first three beasts Daniel saw represented the same great monarchies which were shown to Nebuchadnezzar in his dream.

The GWTJ involves the lost being raised from the dead then judged and sentenced. How would that be relevant to the beast? Nowhere in all of Revelation 20:12-15 does it mention the beast, the false prophet, and satan, being among the dead standing before God. That's because all 3 are already in the LOF at this point. To have Daniel 7:9-11 to be involving the GWTJ is not reasonable, based on the fact that Revelation 20 already has the little horn in the LOF before the GWTJ begins, and that nothing involving Revelation 20:12-15 is recording that the little horn is among the dead standing before God at the time. When the beast, the fp, and satan are cast into the LOF, those are different judgments that happen earlier.

Both Rev 19:19-20 & Rev 20:8-10 are visions of the same final conflict. The only difference is chapter 19 is the beginning of the final conflict while chapter 20 is a vision of the end. There is only one GWTJ where all the enemies of Christ, those under the power of evil are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. This is the judgment in the lake of fire Daniel's dream displays.

Revelation 19:19-20 (KJV) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Gog and Magog are people who are deceived, called Gog, meaning antichrists, and Magog meaning antichristian. They are the army gathered to make war against Christ and His Church on earth. Satan is loosed so he can gather the deceived of the earth for one last attempt of keeping the Kingdom of heaven from being complete.

Revelation 20:8 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

As for the rest of humanity, those in unbelief, the 'dead' are then judged by what is written in the books and the book of life. The sea gives up the dead, and death and the grave (hell) give up the dead and all are cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[rwb]

For the most part I do agree. Which I guess could mean, as pertaining to the saints that are overcome, that some of them will choose the former(to bow and receive a mark), and that some of them will choose the latter(lose their heads), and not all of them like I have been assuming, will choose the latter.

Yet, there is this, though.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

This describes the very same things that happen to those involving Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 13:15. And the fact the 2Ws are then seen ascending to heaven after they rise from the dead, how is @grafted branch going to argue this verse, the fact they are overcome and still ascend to heaven, regardless?

The saints are every believer from both the Old and New Covenant. Every human saint is clothed in physical bodies that grow old and die, or that can be killed. It is true that in this time, times and dividing/half of time there are times when the saints are defeated and killed, they are the martyrs for faith. When saints are killed it is during time likened to 42 months. And in death believers go as living (spirit) souls to heaven to wait until time on earth shall be no more. So even though the saints can be and are physically overcome and killed, saints are still victorious, having kept the faith unto death.

There is also time likened to 1260 days where saints as the Church on earth defeat evil through proclaiming the Gospel, and the Kingdom of heaven grows as believers enter into the Kingdom by grace through faith when they hear the Gospel and through the power of the Spirit believe.

This is the on-going battle between the forces for good and the forces for evil in this Messianic era called the Day of the Lord.

 

[rwb]

I will answer that by saying the saints or Israel can be overcome but true believers can’t be overcome after the cross.

Not spiritually that's for sure for saints no matter before or after the cross!

 

[DavidPT]

Both Rev 19:19-20 & Rev 20:8-10 are visions of the same final conflict. The only difference is chapter 19 is the beginning of the final conflict while chapter 20 is a vision of the end. There is only one GWTJ where all the enemies of Christ, those under the power of evil are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. This is the judgment in the lake of fire Daniel's dream displays.

Revelation 19:19-20 (KJV) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Gog and Magog are people who are deceived, called Gog, meaning antichrists, and Magog meaning antichristian. They are the army gathered to make war against Christ and His Church on earth. Satan is loosed so he can gather the deceived of the earth for one last attempt of keeping the Kingdom of heaven from being complete.

Revelation 20:8 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

As for the rest of humanity, those in unbelief, the 'dead' are then judged by what is written in the books and the book of life. The sea gives up the dead, and death and the grave (hell) give up the dead and all are cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And I have pointed this out before in the past. In Revelation 20 the saints are depicted as being on the earth then being surrounded by their enemies. In Revelation 19 there is no such depiction because Christ's armies are descending from the sky with Christ, not still on the earth being surrounded by their enemies instead. Even if nothing recorded in Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning in a literal sense, still what is being depicted in Revelation 20:7-9 is not what is being depicted in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


As can be seen, this is not depicting any saints on earth being surrounded by their enemies at the time if Revelation 19 records that all of His saints are in the sky and descending to earth, therefore not still on the earth instead, being surrounded by their enemies.


Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

How one can have what is depicted above that I underlined, being the same event I have below that I underlined, defies logic.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about , and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Wonder how they did that on the earth if Revelation 19 records they are not on the earth at the time, they are descending from the sky? Which obviously means, as of Revelation 19:14, the dead in Christ have risen, and those that were alive on the earth, they have met Christ in the air, thus the rapture. Therefore, leaving not one single saint remaining on the earth in order to fulfill what Revelation 20:9 records. Therefore, based on this alone, these can't be involving the same events.

 

[Douggg]

Therefore, it shouldn't taken a rocket scientist to figure out that---in Daniel 7:25, this---and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time---is meaning this in Revelation 13:5---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Agreed.

a time and times and the dividing of time is meaning 1 + 2 + 1/2. 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 of a year = 3 and 1/2 years. 3 and 1/2 years equal 42 months.

nominally, not exactly.

 

[rwb]

And I have pointed this out before in the past. In Revelation 20 the saints are depicted as being on the earth then being surrounded by their enemies. In Revelation 19 there is no such depiction because Christ's armies are descending from the sky with Christ, not still on the earth being surrounded by their enemies instead. Even if nothing recorded in Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning in a literal sense, still what is being depicted in Revelation 20:7-9 is not what is being depicted in Revelation 19.

David, in Rev 19 John sees a vision of Christ symbolically riding a white horse from heaven after His cross and resurrection, which is why He is seen clothed in blood and called the Word of God. Which is what He was with God in the beginning.

John 1:1-2 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John's vision shows those who follow Christ also riding on white horses because they are those whom John first saw in the vision of those in heaven. Those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:5-9 (KJV) And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

In the first part of the vision John sees the full embodiment of saints in heaven, a great multitude as the voice of many waters (from every nation, tribe, kindred, & tongue) after pouring out His judgment on the great harlot. Then beginning in vs.11 the vision changes from what John saw in heaven to what takes place on earth, as Christ the Word of God sends out His armies upon all the earth with the sharp sword that proceeds out of the mouth of Christ, that is the Gospel which is the sword of the Spirit of Christ. The armies of Christ symbolically follow Him on white horses with the testimony of Jesus.

The supper of the great God for all the fowls of the air will consist of eating the flesh of all the slain after the final battle is fought and won by Christ and His saints.

Revelation 19:17 (KJV) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18-21 (KJV) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 

[RandyPNW]

It’s not that difficult.
The “general” interpretation of the entire Vision is found in vs 17-18: four kingdoms but the saints would possess the kingdom forever.
Daniel asks for more specifics on the fourth kingdom in vs 19-22
the angel provides a more specific interpretation of the fourth beast, it’s 10 horns, and little horn in Vs 23-27. Following the destruction of the little horn, the saints possess the kingdom forever.

To recap:

general interpretation of entire vision: four kingdoms but the saints possess the kingdom forever
specific interpretation: during the fourth kingdom, the 10 horns are 10 kings, the little horn rises, persecutes the saints, and is destroyed, the the saints possess the kingdom forever.

My point: however you view the specific interpretation of vs 23-27, it cannot contextually go beyond the general interpretation of vs 17-18 and the fourth kingdom. Such would be “moving the goal posts back”, as we are way past four kingdoms now.

Didn't you understand my point? The 4th Kingdom is *not* well past its time! The 4th Kingdom still exists in the form of European Civilization, which was the Christianized Roman Empire after Theodosius. It was essentially the Roman Empire East and West, and continues as such to the present day. The Slavic nations of Europe are the Eastern branch while the Germanic nations of Europe are the Western branch.

The last days of this 4th Kingdom will see it form into a confederacy of 10 nations, 7 kings and 1 Antichrist. 3 kings among the 10 nations will fall, leaving 7 kings and 10 nations. And Antichrist will rule over them all through the power of Satan.

This is not well past the time of the 4th Kingdom, even though Rome fell in 476 and Constantinople fell in 1453. They remain in power today through their heirs, Russia and the East European countries in the East, and the West European countries in the West. Ultimately, they will form this 10 nation confederation.

These European States have been forming for centuries. But in our time we may see a political alliance, indicating the 7th Kingdom of Rev 17. Antichrist will be the 8th Kingdom when he assumes power over it.

 

[iamlamad]

Why would that be considered as believers being overcome? What should a believer do? Romans 12:21 says be not overcome with evil. Will all the believers at this time disobey this verse and be overcome by the beast?

We must consider TIME when reading verses. Why? Because the days of great tribulation is a very special time. It will be a God ordained time. God's purpose is to completely shatter the power of the Jews. (Dan. 12) There are only two verses I can find in all of scripture that will apply for believers in Christ at that time: Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 both tell us that the saints will be overcome. No amount of faith in other verses will work.

For example, there are many verses that give us authority over all the power of the enemy DURING THE CHURCH AGE. However, these verses won't work for they are for the church age. The church age will end with the pretribulation rapture.

If a believer loves life so much that they take the mark to stay alive, that is being overcome.
If a believer is captured and their freedom taken from them, and they refuse the mark and are beheaded, that is being "overcome."

There will be only ONE WAY to get victory over the Beast: that is to refuse the mark and become a martyr.

However, a FAR better choice is to believe God has an escape plan, so you are never forced to make such a tough decision. Get born again Today, for today is the day of salvation! Then pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming, and live together with Him.

 

[RandyPNW]

We must consider TIME when reading verses. Why? Because the days of great tribulation is a very special time. It will be a God ordained time. God's purpose is to completely shatter the power of the Jews. (Dan. 12) There are only two verses I can find in all of scripture that will apply for believers in Christ at that time: Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 both tell us that the saints will be overcome. No amount of faith in other verses will work.

For example, there are many verses that give us authority over all the power of the enemy DURING THE CHURCH AGE. However, these verses won't work for they are for the church age. The church age will end with the pretribulation rapture.

If a believer loves life so much that they take the mark to stay alive, that is being overcome.
If a believer is captured and their freedom taken from them, and they refuse the mark and are beheaded, that is being "overcome."

There will be only ONE WAY to get victory over the Beast: that is to refuse the mark and become a martyr.

However, a FAR better choice is to believe God has an escape plan, so you are never forced to make such a tough decision. Get born again Today, for today is the day of salvation! Then pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming, and live together with Him.

There's a lot wrong with this perspective. To begin with there is no Pretribulational Rapture in the Bible. Period. Paul taught in 2 Thes 2 that it is a deception to believe that Christ can come back with his Kingdom before Antichrist appears. Paul teaches that Christ comes back with the express purpose of destroying Antichrist, and will not come back earlier than that.

2ndly, the overcoming of the Church you make sound like a failure on the part of Christianity because they did not "make the Pretrib Rapture." The opposite is taught in the book of Revelation and in Dan 7. The victory of the Beast over the saints is very short-lived, and simply means God allows, for a short time, the Antichrist to persecute the Church. It does not mean the Church is failing at that time!

 

[claninja]

Didn't you understand my point? The 4th Kingdom is *not* well past its time! The 4th Kingdom still exists in the form of European Civilization,

Last time I checked, the Roman Empire no longer exists.

the idea that modern Europe is somehow the Roman Empire is a laughable “move the goal posts back” ploy by fundamentalist Christians to support their futurist presuppositions.

Notice how in the NT, it’s Jews and Greeks? Should I make the argument that Paul and Christ actually lived during the Greek empire in the form of Roman civilization? No, that’s a ridiculous argument.

 

[claninja]

This is not well past the time of the 4th Kingdom, even though Rome fell in 476 and Constantinople fell in 1453. They remain in power today through their heirs, Russia and the East European countries in the East, and the West European countries in the West. Ultimately, they will form this 10 nation confederation.

sounds like more of a conspiracy theory than fact.

let’s look at biblical facts instead:

1.) Christ lived during the fourth kingdom (Rome) : luke 3:1

2.) antichrist existed during the fourth kingdom (Rome): 2 John 2:18-19, and so did the man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2:6, and so did the beast (revelation 17:10).

3.) the apostles preached that Christ was coming in a little while, without delay (Hebrews 10:37), that Christs coming was at hand (James 5:8-9), that the end of the ages had come upon them (1 Corinthians 10:11), that the end of all things had drawn near (1 Peter 4:7), and that it was the last hour (1 john 2:18): all during the fourth kingdom (Rome)

4.) during the fourth kingdom, the saints had been translated in the kingdom of the son (Colossians 1:13), had come to the heavenly Jerusalem, receiving a kingdom (Hebrews 12:18-29), and would take possession of the kingdom following the destruction of the wicked tenants (matthew 21:43-44).

 

[RandyPNW]

sounds like more of a conspiracy theory than fact.

"Conspiracy Theory?" You really seem mixed up! I'm giving you my theoretical interpretation based on *historical facts!* What about this is a "conspiracy theory?"

let’s look at biblical facts instead:

1.) Christ lived during the fourth kingdom (Rome) : luke 3:1

This also is interpretive, since we aren't clearly told this. However, I agree with it. Saying it is a "biblical fact," however, is misleading. The Bible does not explicitly say Christ lived during the 4th Kingdom. I do think it implies it, however.

2.) antichrist existed during the fourth kingdom (Rome): 2 John 2:18-19, and so did the man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2:6, and so did the beast (revelation 17:10).

This also is not a biblical fact. At best it is interpretive. None of these references indicate Antichrist existed during the 4th Kingdom. As I just said, the Bible may or may not infer this, but it does not explicitly teach it.

Nowhere are we told that the Antichrist existed during the ancient Roman Empire. John's statement that Antichrists currrently existed is the same thing Jesus said about his own generation. There would be false Christs and false Prophets. Specifically, there were those who claimed to be messianic and foretold they would bring about a Messianic Kingdom in the face of Roman oppression. They were false!

The Apostle John said that even as we were told the Little Horn/Antichrist is coming in the endtime, so already there have been many preliminary antichrists. These are not THE Antichrist, but preliminary messengers of darkness. The entire age is characterized by Satanic dominion and messengers of darkness, designed to deceive. None of this is "biblical fact" that THE Antichrist lived during the ancient phase of the Roman Empire. But I do believe the ancient Roman Empire is continuous until its endtime Antichristian phase, just before Christ returns.

3.) the apostles preached that Christ was coming in a little while, without delay (Hebrews 10:37), that Christs coming was at hand (James 5:8-9), that the end of the ages had come upon them (1 Corinthians 10:11), that the end of all things had drawn near (1 Peter 4:7), and that it was the last hour (1 john 2:18): all during the fourth kingdom (Rome)

Again, this is *not* biblical fact! We don't know what the Apostles actually believed about the nearness of the Kingdom of Christ. All they had to go on was Christ's claim that the Kingdom was essentially "near," because of his own proximity to them. He was the King of the Kingdom. His being there with them meant that his Kingdom would follow, relatively soon. It's nearness was reflective of the tension created by his own 1st Coming. The heavenly Kingdom was already operating on a new basis, that of Christ as opposed to the Law. He was reaching out to the whole world, and not just Israel. He was getting the world prepared for a new age and his future Kingdom.

But Jesus also said the Kingdom would be preceded by his death and by a long exile of the nation. It would be the worst punishment in Israel's history! And so, time-wise, Jesus did not say the Kingdom was near. But in the sense of its close proximity to judgment, it was already impacting the world, and as such, was geographically "near." It was effecting both Salvation and Judgment upon the world, which would relatively soon be followed by judgment and by the reward of the righteous.

Again, your "biblical facts" leave something to be desired. Biblical facts consist of explicit biblical statements, and not allusions or interpretations. You also have to consider that the Bible makes hyperbolic statements, which you do not account for.

4.) during the fourth kingdom, the saints had been translated in the kingdom of the son (Colossians 1:13), had come to the heavenly Jerusalem, receiving a kingdom (Hebrews 12:18-29), and would take possession of the kingdom following the destruction of the wicked tenants (matthew 21:43-44).

Yes, Christians get saved in all ages, whether in the age of ancient Rome or in the present age of European dominance. And it is active both inside of and outside of European Civilization. Your "biblical facts" take us far afield of what "biblical facts" mean!

 

[Timtofly]

One problem with all this is that on the one hand you have the saints given to the beast as a future event and on the other hand we have verses such as Hebrews 13:5-6 I will never leave thee or forsake thee and Matthew 16:18 the gates of hell will not prevail against the church; and we also need to consider 1 Corinthians 6:20 ye are bought with a price, therefore your body and spirit are God’s.

Looking at Daniel 7:25 do you think Christ is going to just hand over the saints to the beast at some point in the future?

Because calling some saints and describing them, does not automatically apply to the whole church as a blanket fact. In the last 1992 years saints have been martyred, overcome and killed, removed from earth before natural death itself happened. That does not mean the church was defeated and overcome. Saints is a term describing humans facing Satan while alive. The church covers the whole kingdom from Abel, killed in the Garden, to those beheaded prior to Armageddon. So death came premature to the first church member Abel, and those beheaded are killed pre-natural life span. Certainly seeming to those on earth to be overcome and not triumphant. But the church over all is triumphant.

Once the church is safe in Paradise it will never be handed back for Satan to do as he pleases. The church is not even on earth during the Millennium. The church comes down as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. And Satan is definitely in the LOF at that point. When people start applying real events, spiritually, time is thrown out the window, and we may as well not even count years any more. "Years" to those who spiritualize everything no longer exist. Everything is literally in a cloud of human imagination. They have us living in a virtual reality where humans define stuff as they see it, and not according to reality.

Jesus does not hand any one over to Satan. Saints are just those still on earth during certain periods of time, where Satan is allowed to persecute the church.

 

[iamlamad]

There's a lot wrong with this perspective. To begin with there is no Pretribulational Rapture in the Bible. Period. Paul taught in 2 Thes 2 that it is a deception to believe that Christ can come back with his Kingdom before Antichrist appears. Paul teaches that Christ comes back with the express purpose of destroying Antichrist, and will not come back earlier than that.

2ndly, the overcoming of the Church you make sound like a failure on the part of Christianity because they did not "make the Pretrib Rapture." The opposite is taught in the book of Revelation and in Dan 7. The victory of the Beast over the saints is very short-lived, and simply means God allows, for a short time, the Antichrist to persecute the Church. It does not mean the Church is failing at that time!

The truth is, you have just not found the pretrib rapture. It is there and millions have found it. Need help?
Paul told us the rapture would come just before wrath.
John teaches us that wrath begins at the 6th seal.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told that judgment will not begin until the final martyr killed as they were killed - as church-age martyrs.

What will cause a certain martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? That would be when the church age ENDS. It will end at the pretrib rapture.

Therefore, the church has been waiting at the 5th seal for that final church age martyr. One day soon Jesus will come, call up the dead in Christ, then call up those who are alive and in Christ, the church age will END and the Day of the Lord will begin. Judgment will begin. The 6th seal will be opened to begin the Day of the Lord.

As further proof, John saw the just-raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal. That is the crowd, too large to number. Perhaps 50 generations of believers all caught up at once: billions of believers.

Then, a few days (perhaps the ten days of awe) later, and Jesus will open the 7th seal to begin the 70th week of Daniel. Since 6 always comes before 7 in counting, the rapture will most certainly be pretrib.

Second, it will not be "the church" there in the days of GT - it will be only a remnant left as Rev. 12 tells us. This is yet another proof of the pretrib rapture - only a remnant of believers left on earth.

Classic pretrib theory has been wrong all these years (as has almost all other end time theories) imagining the 70th week (or Trib') would begin with the first seal. That theory is a myth. Revelation 4 and 5 show us that Jesus got the book and began opening the seals as soon as he ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Finally, Paul would not write of a pre-wrath rapture in one letter, then change his mind in his second letter. Most people read the 2 Thes. 2 passage wrong. What Paul wrote is that the departing (of the church as in the rapture) must come first, as the restrainer is "taken out of the way," and then the man of sin will be revealed. When someone sees the man of sin revealed, then will then know that the Day has begun and they are then inside the Day of the Lord.

There are two keys to understanding Paul's intent" first, notice that in verse 3b the man if sin is revealed. How did he get revealed? According to verses 6-8, he could not be revealed unless the power restraining him had departed or was gone or was taken out of the way.

Therefore, somewhere in verse 3a, the restraining force is taken out of the way.

The second key is when Paul wrote, concerning this restraining force, in verse six, "and NOW YOU KNOW who is restraining..." Why did Paul write those words? Simple: He just told the readers, but did it in a veiled way. The restraining force removed is hidden in the word apostasia.

 

[RandyPNW]

The truth is, you have just not found the pretrib rapture. It is there and millions have found it. Need help?
Paul told us the rapture would come just before wrath.
John teaches us that wrath begins at the 6th seal.

You shouldn't talk to me as if I'm a novice. I changed from Pretrib to Postrib in the early 70s. And I did so after indulging in Bible memorization, specifically in 2 Thessalonians.

I've read George E. Ladd and Robert Gundry on this subject--have you? I've read many, many books and documents from the Pretrib perspective. I'm fully aware of every argument involved, and I remain a convinced Postrib--not out of pride or prejudice, but only because my conscience directs me to.

I'm not prepared to ignore the fact nearly all NT eschatology is based on Dan 7 and the prophecy of the Little Horn, the Antichrist, who is defeated at the coming of the Son of Man. That is the blueprint for the endtimes. Christ comes back to defeat the Antichrist. That is what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians. And that also is what the book of Revelation teaches, unless we create all kinds of artificial symbolic interpretations of what is said.

This has little to do with making one a Christian. But I believe it has a lot to do with helping us to know what we're up against in this life.

The arguments about the mysterious Restrainer in 2 Thes 2 does not dissolve Paul's explicit claim that Christ cannot return until it is time to destroy Antichrist. And so, Pretribbers use the Restrainer as a means of confusing the issue, and endorsing a theology the opposite of what Paul stated.

The Early Church Fathers saw the Restrainer as the Roman Government, which Paul could not spell out without being charged with conspiracy and treason. That's why it's given in a somewhat cloak of mystery, much as John did concerning "Mystery Babylon." Babylon was really *Rome!*

And so, they believed the Restraint of Antichrist was the 4th Kingdom that could not allow Antichrist to come until it had divided into 10 States. The unity of the Roman Government, particularly after it was Christianized, prevented Antichrist from coming prematurely.

Anyway, I go by Paul's theology, and not by an isolated, controversial passage. If you care to discuss this further, you'll find that I'm hardly ignorant of the arguments.

 

[claninja]

"Conspiracy Theory?" You really seem mixed up! I'm giving you my theoretical interpretation based on *historical facts!* What about this is a "conspiracy theory?"

the historical facts of the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 and 1453 already work against your own argument. And yes, the idea that Europe is the Roman Empire, definitely rings conspiracy theory amongst nationalists and Christian fundamentalist circles.

Would you argue that the heirs of the Greeks in power during the time of the Roman Empire actually made the Roman Empire the Greek empire? That would be one really mixed up argument. But i suppose if one needed the Greek empire to last another 1,000 years in order to fit some presupposition they had, they could attempt to convolutedly argue this?

This also is interpretive, since we aren't clearly told this. However, I agree with it. Saying it is a "biblical fact," however, is misleading. The Bible does not explicitly say Christ lived during the 4th Kingdom. I do think it implies it, however.

Fair enough, I’ll rephrase. The Roman Empire was the fourth gentile empire in succession starting with Babylon, for which Israel was under following the destruction of the first temple. Christ lived during this fourth empire as evidenced by Luke 3:1.

This also is not a biblical fact. At best it is interpretive. None of these references indicate Antichrist existed during the 4th Kingdom. As I just said, the Bible may or may not infer this, but it does not explicitly teach it.

Nowhere are we told that the Antichrist existed during the ancient Roman Empire. John's statement that Antichrists currrently existed is the same thing Jesus said about his own generation. There would be false Christs and false Prophets. Specifically, there were those who claimed to be messianic and foretold they would bring about a Messianic Kingdom in the face of Roman oppression. They were false!

The Apostle John said that even as we were told the Little Horn/Antichrist is coming in the endtime, so already there have been many preliminary antichrists. These are not THE Antichrist, but preliminary messengers of darkness. The entire age is characterized by Satanic dominion and messengers of darkness, designed to deceive. None of this is "biblical fact" that THE Antichrist lived during the ancient phase of the Roman Empire. But I do believe the ancient Roman Empire is continuous until its endtime Antichristian phase, just before Christ returns.

This is blatantly incorrect.

John wrote during the time of the Roman Empire which was the Fourth gentile empire in succession starting with Babylon and the destruction of the first temple:

John clearly stated the antichrist was already in the world. He even adds “that is how we know it is the LAST HOUR”. The antichrist was already in the world according to John

1 john 4:3 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is that of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.

Which clearly parallels:

1 john 2:18 18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Again, this is *not* biblical fact! We don't know what the Apostles actually believed about the nearness of the Kingdom of Christ. All they had to go on was Christ's claim that the Kingdom was essentially "near," because of his own proximity to them. He was the King of the Kingdom. His being there with them meant that his Kingdom would follow, relatively soon. It's nearness was reflective of the tension created by his own 1st Coming. The heavenly Kingdom was already operating on a new basis, that of Christ as opposed to the Law. He was reaching out to the whole world, and not just Israel. He was getting the world prepared for a new age and his future Kingdom.

But Jesus also said the Kingdom would be preceded by his death and by a long exile of the nation. It would be the worst punishment in Israel's history! And so, time-wise, Jesus did not say the Kingdom was near. But in the sense of its close proximity to judgment, it was already impacting the world, and as such, was geographically "near." It was effecting both Salvation and Judgment upon the world, which would relatively soon be followed by judgment and by the reward of the righteous.

Again, your "biblical facts" leave something to be desired. Biblical facts consist of explicit biblical statements, and not allusions or interpretations. You also have to consider that the Bible makes hyperbolic statements, which you do not account for

It is a Biblical fact that the apostles wrote these “near” time statements during the Roman Empire, which was the fourth gentile empire in succession, with Babylon as the first, following the destruction of the first temple.

1 john 2:18 18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

James 5:8 8You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near.

1 peter 4:7 7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

hebrews 10:37 37For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Yes, Christians get saved in all ages, whether in the age of ancient Rome or in the present age of European dominance. And it is active both inside of and outside of European Civilization. Your "biblical facts" take us far afield of what "biblical facts" mean!

and this is a result of Christ coming during the Roman Empire, fourth in succession of the gentile empires, with Babylon being the first, after the destruction of the first temple, no?

 

[DavidPT]

sounds like more of a conspiracy theory than fact.

let’s look at biblical facts instead:

1.) Christ lived during the fourth kingdom (Rome) : luke 3:1

2.) antichrist existed during the fourth kingdom (Rome): 2 John 2:18-19, and so did the man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2:6, and so did the beast (revelation 17:10).

3.) the apostles preached that Christ was coming in a little while, without delay (Hebrews 10:37), that Christs coming was at hand (James 5:8-9), that the end of the ages had come upon them (1 Corinthians 10:11), that the end of all things had drawn near (1 Peter 4:7), and that it was the last hour (1 john 2:18): all during the fourth kingdom (Rome)

4.) during the fourth kingdom, the saints had been translated in the kingdom of the son (Colossians 1:13), had come to the heavenly Jerusalem, receiving a kingdom (Hebrews 12:18-29), and would take possession of the kingdom following the destruction of the wicked tenants (matthew 21:43-44).

What is your interpretation of Daniel 2:44? The text indicates that it is in the days of these kings, as in plural kings. What kings are you taking these to mean? Obviously, a kingdom can not be set up during the days of kings who are reigning in different eras of time since that would be illogical. The nearest antecedent appears to be verses 40-43, and according to Revelation 17:12 the ten toes are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.