Daniel 2, reconsidered

[Interplanner]

Yes, the antecedent of "it" in v41 is the iron/clay kingdom, #4. Through v43. Then you have #5 which is the kingdom of God, not made by human hands, the mountain of the Lord. You might be thinking that it has to actually or militarily ruin the others. It will eventually. For now it has its own kind of power.

Keep this chart handy:
4 Visions of Daniel and their NT Usage, R. Brinsmead
Dan 2 | Kingdom of God | Synoptics
Dan 7 | The Righteousness of God | Romans
Dan 9 | The Day of Atonement | Hebrews
Dan 11 | The Eternal Life of God | John

 

[gospelfer]

Yes, the antecedent of "it" in v41 is the iron/clay kingdom, #4. Through v43. Then you have #5 which is the kingdom of God, not made by human hands, the mountain of the Lord. You might be thinking that it has to actually or militarily ruin the others. It will eventually. For now it has its own kind of power.

This interpretation does not hold up well.
Of the iron legs Daniel says:

And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these.

There is nothing weak or incoherent about the legs.


About the feet and toes Daniel says (41 ff):

And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.

Thus:
Iron legs: are "strong like iron which smashes all things." There is no hint of weakness here.

Iron & clay feet and toes: "And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.

Notice he describes the iron & clay feet as a partly strong and partly brittle kingdom.

These must be two distinct powers.

 

[Interplanner]

They are mixed as one material. that's the problem. The English word mixed is in the NIV 3 times in v43. When he said it (the 4th) would break all the others, he meant the previous 3, which Rome did.

The kingdom of God comes during Rome's rule.

And this was supposed to be an exercise in not coming with our own mindset?

 

[gospelfer]

They are mixed as one material. that's the problem. The English word mixed is in the NIV 3 times in v43. When he said it (the 4th) would break all the others, he meant the previous 3, which Rome did.

The kingdom of God comes during Rome's rule.

And this was supposed to be an exercise in not coming with our own mindset?

"And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these."

This kingdom is described as strong as iron. It's iron strength is unmitigated.

"And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle"

This kingdom is described as partly strong and partly brittle. That is, it is as strong as iron mixed with clay. Also, notice the rock "struck the feet of iron and clay" (v. 34) -- the iron legs are left out of the initial impact, strongly suggesting they are a separate entity. Daniel draws a strong distinction between the feet and legs: the leg are only said to be iron, while the feet are always said to be mixed iron and clay.


I find it difficult to understand why you see the legs and feet as same kingdom. Daniel describes them as two separate entities -- it never even occured to me that they could be considered as one. I'm I still trying to figure out how and why you are doing so.

But if the the legs and feet are somehow the same kingdom -- Rome as you say, the heavenly rock/kingdom must come in the 5th or 6th century AD -- with the end of the Roman power. For the heavenly rock smashes the feet, ending its life. How can the heavenly mountain co-exist with the feet it has just smashed? You say the heavenly kingdom comes during Rome's rule, but Daniel paints it as smashing it (assuming merged legs and feet). Again, Daniel describes a sequence, Legs, Feet, Rock. Why are you try to mash the 3 into the same time-frame? You suggest I'm bringing some exterior framework to bear on my interpretation but I am not. But it feels to me like you are trying to bend Daniel 2 to your will -- why or to what purpose I cannot fathom.

 

[gospelfer]

Interplanner:
Ha! I just had an idea. This passage is short (verses 31-45), and in as much as we are considering it on its own, it should be easy to ask uninterested (but literate) people to make a careful read of it. They can then report what they think it describes -- not as a historical matter, but rather the shape of the thing detached from any actual historical consideration. In fact 31-45 is ideal, because then they won't even know Daniel is speaking to Nebuchadnezzar -- they will have no historical context to cloud their judgement. Also, I will restrict myself to non-believers, removing any possible religious pre-conceptions.

It is a simple and easy test. I suggest you try it. Remember, no coaching! I promise I will not coach either.

 

[Bible2]

gospelfer said in post 1:

. . . the sequence of powers is Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam.

Do you mean that the future power (empire) of the Antichrist will be Islamic?

If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

--

Even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

 

[Bible2]

gospelfer said in post 16:

For my money, it is the fulfillment of Daniel 12:9.

Note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), while Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

 

[Bible2]

5thKingdom said in post 2:

Daniel 2 shows the same "mystery" as Daniel 7...

That's right in the sense that Daniel 2:31-33a,37-40 was fulfilled by the ancient empires of Babylon (head of gold: Daniel 2:38b), Medo-Persia (silver), Greece (brass), and Rome (iron), the same 4 empires pictured by the 4 beasts in Daniel 7.

The 2 arms of the silver empire in Daniel 2:32 represented the ancient Medes and the Persians, just as the 2 horns of the ram empire in Daniel 8:3 represented the ancient Medes and the Persians (Daniel 8:20).

The 2 iron legs in Daniel 2:33 could represent how the ancient Roman empire eventually split into 2 parts: Western (Roman) and Eastern (Byzantine). The territory of the latter was eventually conquered by the (Islamic) Ottoman empire.

In Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

--

5thKingdom said in post 12:

However... we KNOW ABSOLUTELY that these Kingdoms are NOT physical because of Daniel 7:11-12.

Regarding the preceding context, Daniel 7:10b could refer to the judgment of only the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:19-30, Luke 12:45-48), which judgment will occur, along with the marriage of the church (Revelation 19:7), shortly before Jesus defeats the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, by casting him into the lake of fire (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

So Daniel 7:11a could refer to the Antichrist, the voice of the horn, shortly before his destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, speaking great blasphemies against YHWH God (cf. Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) to try to build up the morale of the world's armies, which will have gathered together in an attempt to fight YHWH (Revelation 19:19, Revelation 16:14).

Daniel 7:11b refers to the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, being cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20). In Daniel 7, the Antichrist is considered to be part of the 4th beast (Daniel 7:23-25).

Daniel 7:12 doesn't require that the prior beasts didn't have their dominion (their empires) taken away before the Antichrist's destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, but can simply mean that they are different from the Antichrist in that they had a (post-empire) existence, in the sense that Babylon, even after its defeat as an empire in the 6th century BC, continued as a thriving city for centuries (and has even been rebuilt in our time), and Medo-Persia continues as Iraq and Iran, and Greece continues as a nation, and Rome continues as Italy. Also, Iraq, Iran, Greece, and Italy could continue to exist as distinct nations (not empires) during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6, which won't begin until after the Antichrist's future destruction in Revelation 19:20, at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3.

 

[mxyzpt1k]

I'm a little wierded out here. We are talking about Daniel 2? -- I'm not being facetious.

Golden Head
Silver Chest
Brazen waist
Iron Legs
Feet of mixed iron and clay.
A boulder that smashes the whole man and becomes a new kingdom.

I count 6. 5 ordinary kingdoms, followed by a "heavenly" kingdom.

Daniel 8:22 describes the "5th Kingdom + Kingdom of Blessing" (before the four, and the one that is not apart of the four or after it), that is a "Dual Kingdom", this "Dual Kingdom" .... is the "Great Tribulation" or the unifying of "Heaven and Earth by the Temple Stones". .................. This is the "Iron and Clay" or "5th Kingdom + Kingdom of Blessing". ................. Then it follows that this "Kingdom of Blessing" overtakes all the previous kingdoms, and when it does that it becomes a "New Everlasting Kingdom".

Daniel 8:22 and Daniel 2:32-33, they are describing the same event. Now Daniel 2, introduces Babyon. Then, Daniel 8 introduces the Medes, Persians and Greece. Then there is a kingdom that is not given a name ... Daniel 8:23 says this Kingdom simply occupies the time it takes to terminate all previous kingdoms. We will follow this example:

(Babylon ... Media and Persia under Assyria ... Egypt under Greece/Rome ... Jerusalem under Rome ... finally the New Roman Empire)

Gold (Head) = Babylon = Genesis 19:24
Silver (Chest)= Assyria = Isiah 37:36
Bronze (Waist)= Assyria = 2Chron. 32:21
Iron (Thighs)= Egypt = Exodus 12:29
Iron and Clay (Feet) = Jerusalem = Matthew 2:16
Boulder (Soul) = USA = Revelation 11:5

Each of these events are doubled. What I am trying to say is, Sodom and Gomorrah was Earth destruction, Antichrist in Rev. 11:5 is Spiritual destruction. God killed the physical children in Egypt, then God killed his Gospel in Jerusalem when Jesus was born. The same is true for the 185,000 the Angel killed, Isiah 37:36 would be physical since an earthly king is referenced, relative to that description. Lets continue, first with a footnote, God numbers the Dead with 185,000 with Isiah. God does not choose to number any of the examples. Lets assume for the moment this is because each example applies to the figure of 185,000 ... this is the figure God asks for in Aaron's Repentance. The earth must testify of what God does in heaven in order for the gospel to be satisfied, in relation to the repentance. Since God is doing something similar with "Star Wormwood", like similar to what was done previously, this is why the figure of 185,000 seems to apply to all instances, but it is not a figure that is declared in this way, anyway (God asks for Aaron's repentance in the New Roman Empire) lets continue:

Pole Stars - But are they really Stars or variants of Star Wormwood's Progression?
Gold (Head) = Babylon = Genesis 19:24 = Flaming Sword, began in Genesis
Silver (Chest)= Assyria = Isiah 37:36 = Theta Boötis, began 4300 B.C.
Bronze (Waist)= Assyria = 2Chron. 32:21 = Thuban, began 3942 B.C.
Iron (Thighs)= Egypt = Exodus 12:29 = Kochab, began 1500 B.C.
Iron and Clay (Feet) = Jerusalem = Matthew 2:16 = Polaris, began 500 A.D.
Boulder (Soul) = USA = Revelation 11:5 = Star Wormwood, begins in Revelation

(figures from) (funtrivia.***/askft/Question94857.html)

If we follow the interpretation of Daniel, the Planet Earth will have rested only on 6 Pole Stars. 2 of These Pole Stars, were not stars at all, they were simply the hyperdimensional force, the gospel calls the "Blessing", which allows mankind to transfer dimension, and at the end of time this is into the New Universe. We very simply need to know our current pole star, that is Polaris, then after we fill in the values going backwards, our first value must be "Star Wormwood", and our final value must be "Star Wormwood". Now the Gospel has not "Blessed the Holy Spirit, to produce Star Wormwood" ... so that is why we must use the phrase "Flaming Sword", because its not going to help mankind ascend to the New Universe, until after the "Temple Stones Fall", and until after the "Two Witnesses are Slain".

 

[5thKingdom]

What you say may be true; the first kingdom may be the antedeluvian world, but when speaking to Nebuchadnezzar Daniel says:

"You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. "

I want to pretend this means the golden head is the historical Babylon, and see where this leads us. I'd very much appreciate it if you played along with this conceit. Thanks!

The problem with pretending is that it is meaningless.
And I do not pretend.

I assume you understand (and I assume that you agree) that the King of Babylon
was NEVER given (by God) the RULE over all of mankind and all of creation....
therefore, the THEORY that Daniel 2 represents physical/political kingdoms
can NOT harmonize with reality. It's really as simple as that.


Besides that (and this is very important) the Bible was NOT written
so that a passage like Daniel 2 could be understood in isolation. The Bible
is it's own interpreter and you MUST compare spiritual with spiritual in order
to understand WHAT is being taught in Daniel 2.


It is fine to approach Daniel 2 from a literal and physical perspective....
UNTIL you find something that invalidates that THEORY.... like the idea that King of Babylon
was given the "dominion" to be RULER over all of creation - that NEVER happened in history.

--------

So, we see from a physical/historical perspective the passage CANNOT be True.
And we see from the perspective of harmonizing with other Scriptures that it CANNOT be viewed
from a physical/historical fulfillment. In other words, a physical "interpretations" does not match
history (reality) and it does not harmonize with the rest of the Bible. Not even close.

-------------

However.... if you want to pretend about physical fulfillment... then please EXPLAIN exactly HOW
(and WEHEN) the King of Babylon was made the RULER over all creation? All mankind, all creatures...
When and How did GOD give this worldwide RULE to a man (after the Fall of Adam in the Garden)?

Please be specific.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

That's right in the sense that Daniel 2:31-33a,37-40 was fulfilled by the ancient empires of Babylon (head of gold: Daniel 2:38b), Medo-Persia (silver), Greece (brass), and Rome (iron), the same 4 empires pictured by the 4 beasts in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7:12 doesn't require that the prior beasts didn't have their dominion (their empires) taken away before the Antichrist's destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, but can simply mean that they are different from the Antichrist in that they had a (post-empire) existence, in the sense that Babylon, even after its defeat as an empire in the 6th century BC, continued as a thriving city for centuries (and has even been rebuilt in our time), and Medo-Persia continues as Iraq and Iran, and Greece continues as a nation, and Rome continues as Italy. Also, Iraq, Iran, Greece, and Italy could continue to exist as distinct nations (not empires) during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6, which won't begin until after the Antichrist's future destruction in Revelation 19:20, at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3.[/QUOTE

]



Of course the problem with your statement is that it does not harmonize with the Bible.

FIRST... while you can pretend that the Seven (7) Heads of the Revelation Beast
represent seven Roman Emperors... you cannot harmonize that error with the
Seven (7) Heads of Daniel's Beasts.... So your theory is ALREADY proven wrong.


SECOND... you are just pretending when you say that Daniel 7:11-12 represents
something LESS than the PEOPLE in the 4th Kingdom (the 10 Horns/Kings/Toes/Virgins)
being JUDGED and SENTENCED TO HELL as they are "cast alive" into ETERNAL HELL...
while the PEOPLE in the Babylonian, Persian and Greek empires are NOT JUDGED
and they are NOT "cast alive" into Hell.


The "Burning Fire" of Daniel 7:12 is the "Lake-of-Fire" in Revelations 19 and 20.
The PEOPLE in Daniel's 4th Beast are the PEOPLE in the Revelations Beast.


In order for you to harmonize your THEORY with the Word of God.... you must FIRST
demonstrate HOW the PEOPLE in the Roman Empire were "cast alive" into HELL....
while the PEOPLE in the Babylonian, Persian and Greek Empire were NOT Judged.


So... please explain to me HOW your eschatology justifies teaching that the
PEOPLE in the Roman Empire are JUDGED and "cast alive" into HELL....
while the PEOPLE in the previous Empires continue to live on earth.


Please explain your eschatology that teaches these SEPERATE JUDGMENTS?
Please show how the JUDGMENT of the Roman people was BEFORE the Judgment
of the Babylonians, the Persians and the Greeks.

.

 

[Interplanner]

OT prophecy is Christocentric. It is not trying to show the exact details of a whole bunch of events of a whole bunch of kingdoms.

Dan 2 is simply saying that mankinds best is on decline, and God's kingdom made without human hands is on its way.

as for the count of the kingdoms, it is very simple to follow the text: v40 says, "Finally..." in reference to the human kingdoms. It's the one that has the two legs and the two ingredients. It is divided. When v44 says "in the time of those kings..." it doesn't mean all 4 previous kingdoms but in the time of this division it just mentioned about kingdom #4.

Don't forget the helpful chart of R. Brinsmead, ed. of PRESENT TRUTH then VERDICT

Daniel's chapter / vision theme / matching NT material
2 / the kingdom of God / the synoptics
7 / the righteousness of God / Romans
9 / the final day of Atonement / Hebrews*
11 / the eternal life of God / John

The point being, these themes are fulfilled in the NT in Christ.

*There are some good studies out there about how the 6 redemptive things accomplished by Messiah are between the lines of Hebrews 6-10

 

[gospelfer]

Do you mean that the future power (empire) of the Antichrist will be Islamic?

No. The entire point of my post was to look at Daniel, figure out precisely what it describes, and then look at history.

Looking at what Daniel says, I would expect
1. The feet of iron & clay to last about as long as a great power as the legs of iron. Daniel describes them as chunks of iron welded by weak clay. This suggest it is lasting ("partly strong"), but does not have the centripetal coherence of Rome ("partly week"). Regardless, whatever it is, it should last longer than the weak gold of the head (70 years).
2. But I would expect this power to be one that has trouble cohering.
3. Furthermore I would expect feet of iron and clay to come right after the iron legs, temporally.

This is what the vision appears to describe when we look at it minutely. Everybody ignores it. Yet the details have really deep coherence with actually recorded history, if we see the feet as Islam, for Islam meets all 3 of the commonly ignored criteria.
1. It immediately followed Rome.
2. It has lasted as long.
3. Islamic control has been 6 great powers, followed by the apparent death of Islam's power. Of course now, Islam is looking pretty lively. Hmmm ...

Thus, Daniel 2 is telling us that most of Daniel is in the past.

 

[ebedmelech]

No. The entire point of my post was to look at Daniel, figure out precisely what it describes, and then look at history.

Looking at what Daniel says, I would expect
1. The feet of iron & clay to last about as long as a great power as the legs of iron. Daniel describes them as chunks of iron welded by weak clay. This suggest it is lasting ("partly strong"), but does not have the centripetal coherence of Rome ("partly week"). Regardless, whatever it is, it should last longer than the weak gold of the head (70 years).
2. But I would expect this power to be one that has trouble cohering.
3. Furthermore I would expect feet of iron and clay to come right after the iron legs, temporally.

This is what the vision appears to describe when we look at it minutely. Everybody ignores it. Yet the details have really deep coherence with actually recorded history, if we see the feet as Islam, for Islam meets all 3 of the commonly ignored criteria.
1. It immediately followed Rome.
2. It has lasted as long.
3. Islamic control has been 6 great powers, followed by the apparent death of Islam's power. Of course now, Islam is looking pretty lively. Hmmm ...

Thus, Daniel 2 is telling us that most of Daniel is in the past.

Daniel interprets this for you...what are you driving at???

Break it down:

Daniel 2:37, 38:
37 You,O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory;
38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.

That's Babylon..agreed?

Daniel 2:38a:
39 After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you,

That's Medo Persia..agreed?

Daniel 2:38b:
then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
Greece defeated Medo-Persia under Alexander the Great...agreed?

Now as you deal with the fourth kingdom I think you're reading into this something that is not there.

When it comes to the "feet of iron and clay"...it's pretty clear they are part of the fourth beast (Rome).
Daniel 2:41-43
41 In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.
42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.
43 And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.

How are you reading Daniel's interpretation above? I think you've missed what he said.

 

[Douggg]

Again.... these "Ten Toes" or "Ten Virgins" or "Ten Kings" or "Ten Horns"
all represent the SAME PEOPLE.... the people living in the (4th) Great Tribulation...immediately BEFORE the (5th) Eternal Kingdom.

There are no ten virgins in Daniel 2, Daniel 7, or Revelation. The text says ten kings, which because the prince who shall come emerges among them, and that they historically destroyed the temple and city - are the Romans, fourth empire, and in the end times version the EU. Ten kings of the EU.

However... we KNOW ABSOLUTELY that these Kingdoms are NOT physical because of Daniel 7:11-12.

There is NO WAY the Kingdom of Babylon still exists on earth AFTER the Kingdom of Rome is destroyed....
and that is EXACTLY what the Bible REQUIRES in Daniel 7:11-12 (talking about the SAME kingdoms/people)

They are physical kingdoms. The passage is fine. You have a mental block that you cannot understand Daniel 7:11-12.

You cannot find Biblical Truth without harmony of Scriptures... ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.

You haven't a clue. Anyone who says that John was a king of one of the kingdoms represented by the beasts is clueless.


.

 

[Douggg]

No. The entire point of my post was to look at Daniel, figure out precisely what it describes, and then look at history.

But Islam did not take part in the destruction of the city and sanctuary. And Islam is not a kingdom, it is an ideology/religion. The beasts are not religions. There are not ten kings of Islam, because the Roman Empire did not become Islam - which emerged out of Arabia, not Rome.

The EU is it. They have the military. What they are lacking is a Federal government, which is coming, because of the Eurozone crisis.

 

[gospelfer]

Daniel interprets this for you...what are you driving at???

Break it down:

Daniel 2:37, 38:
37 You,O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory;
38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.

That's Babylon..agreed?

Daniel 2:38a:
39 After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you,

That's Medo Persia..agreed?

Daniel 2:38b:
then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
Greece defeated Medo-Persia under Alexander the Great...agreed?

Now as you deal with the fourth kingdom I think you're reading into this something that is not there.

When it comes to the "feet of iron and clay"...it's pretty clear they are part of the fourth beast (Rome).

You account skipped over the legs made of iron. I think these a good candidate for Rome. Rome was unlike any power before or after.

[FONT=Arial, serif]2 [/FONT]The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, [FONT=Arial, serif]33 [/FONT]its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.​

[FONT=Arial, serif]40 [/FONT]And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these.​

The fourth kingdom crushes and smashes things as if it were made out of iron -- not as if were made out of iron and clay.


Now looks at the feet:

[FONT=Arial, serif]41 [/FONT]And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. [FONT=Arial, serif]42 [/FONT]And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.​

Historically, Rome was not "partly strong and partly brittle". It was all strong. It was the most coherent, resilent empire that has ever existed. There is really no comparison with other powers. Try and tell the Gauls and the Carthaginians who had both apparently utterly crushed the Romans on the battlefield, only to lose the war a few years later. Hannibal utterly annihilated two large Roman armies. For nearly 10 years his army wandered freely around Italy doing whatever he wanted; the Romans did not dare to meet him on the field of battle. Incredibly, Carthage still lost the war.

 

[ebedmelech]

The fourth kingdom has come and gone...PERIOD. It's not Islam or the EU.

As the passage says the 4th kingdom was divided...that happened when Emperor Nero died and Rome began to fall apart. That's why Daniel said "some of the kingdom was brittle".

Rome had their weaknesses between Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius.

Revelation reveals ten kings that had power with the beast for "one hour"...there were ten provinces of Rome.

It has already been.

What Christians should be able to discern from this is that God is in control of all things.

This prophecy of Daniel's deals with Empires from the captivity until 70 AD and Jesus is the ROCK that destroyed the fourth kingdom!

He did it by becoming the sacrifice for sin, assuming ALL AUTHORITY in heaven AND on earth from the Father, and He sent His apostles forth into the Romans Empire.

Why else would Acts 17:6-9 say:
6 When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also;

The apostles were empowered to do GREAT works through the Holy Spirit, and it truly upset the world!

 

[gospelfer]

First reading experiment is in! I gave the passage (31-45) to my unbelieving mother, who knows nothing of prophecy, and little of ancient history. She saw in the statue 5 sections: gold, silver, bronze, iron, and iron mixed with clay.

I then explained our disagreement, and she re-read the passage in that light. She said she saw how it could be interpreted as four sections (based on 40 & 41) as a grammatical matter. But she said that the whole description strongly suggests 5 sections.

Of course, this is only one person, and thus not statistically significant, but I will try with other people. I did not coach her at all.

 

[Danoh]

First reading experiment is in! I gave the passage (31-45) to my unbelieving mother, who knows nothing of prophecy, and little of ancient history. She saw in the statue 5 sections: gold, silver, bronze, iron, and iron mixed with clay.

I then explained our disagreement, and she re-read the passage in that light. She said she saw how it could be interpreted as four sections (based on 40 & 41) as a grammatical matter. But she said that the whole description strongly suggests 5 sections.

Of course, this is only one person, and thus not statistically significant, but I will try with other people. I did not coach her at all.

Five it is - a little horn told me