Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[Deafsilence]

Hi again. I was watching some Christian Universal Salvation videos, and stumbled upon this one:

It seems like fate that Augustine would show up in it randomly. Specifically, at 3:35, the person on the video talks about Augustine being "the primary spokesperson for Hell. He was the super spreader of ECT".

Though, I can attest to King James using the word "Hell" way to many times in the KJV (it used to be the only version I read before I became a Universalist). From my own experience, I personally see King James as being more of a "spokesperson" for Hell than Augustine.

Well, I see nothing wrong with the word "hell" in the KJV. I think the problem is that others see it differently than we Universalists see it.

 

[Deafsilence]

That's good to know, thanks.
I think I had some suspicions earlier. Should have PM'd you to ask.

We should do a "coming out" topic. - LOL
All the closet Universalists (hidden behind a username) could make announcement.

Not to toot my own horn but I'm pretty well versed in Universal Salvation. In fact, I believe many Universalist don't understand aionios correctly. They believe it is a limited duration. Maybe your in that camp?

I can tell you that the word "aionios" is not about the end point of something. It is about the fact that something will CONTINUE beyond the boundary. So it can means something is of unlimited or limited duration. But the point is that whatever is aionios will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the age.

 

[Deafsilence]

Very interesting observation. That's worth further discussion.

What do you see as the results in the church of those two perspectives? (earthly and spiritual)

I believe this is how Jesus is a stumbling stone. Christianity is filled with many earthly thinkers. God is SPIRIT and must be worshipped in Spirit so we shouldn't mandate that earthly things keep us away from a Spiritual Relationship with God. Take water baptism. It is just a type. We don't need to be plunged under water to worship the Father in Heaven. If so, then that which is not Spiritual becomes a requirement. But instead the water baptism is a type of the Spiritual Baptism and we use that to teach us parabolically of those spiritual things. The True Baptism is to be submerged into the Holy Spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

Not to toot my own horn but I'm pretty well versed in Universal Salvation. In fact, I believe many Universalist don't understand aionios correctly. They believe it is a limited duration. Maybe your in that camp?
I can tell you that the word "aionios" is not about the end point of something. It is about the fact that something will CONTINUE beyond the boundary. So it can means something is of unlimited or limited duration. But the point is that whatever is aionios will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the age.

That is what Jesus, Himself, said in three vss.

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [ζωὴ αἰώνιος]
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [αἰώνιος ζωὴ]
John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; [αἰώνιος ζωὴ] and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

In these three vss. Jesus paralleled αἰώνιος ζωὴ/aionios life with "shall not perish," three times.
By definition αἰώνιος/aionios means eternal.
FYI αἰώνιος/aionios is never translated "age" in the NT. Of the 71 times "aionios" occurs in the NT, the 3 times it is translated "world" can be explained as figurative.

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe many Universalist don't understand aionios correctly. They believe it is a limited duration. Maybe your in that camp?

Not limited duration, no. I understand it to be an age, meaning a finite amount of time, with a beginning and an end. Not eternal, in other words. However, one age follows the next.

I can tell you that the word "aionios" is not about the end point of something. It is about the fact that something will CONTINUE beyond the boundary. So it can means something is of unlimited or limited duration. But the point is that whatever is aionios will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the age.

Yes, I believe there will be an eternity divided by ages. The beginning of the afterlife will be the first of many ages. Is that the way you understand it?

 

[public hermit]

Not to toot my own horn but I'm pretty well versed in Universal Salvation. In fact, I believe many Universalist don't understand aionios correctly. They believe it is a limited duration. Maybe your in that camp?

I can tell you that the word "aionios" is not about the end point of something. It is about the fact that something will CONTINUE beyond the boundary. So it can means something is of unlimited or limited duration. But the point is that whatever is aionios will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the age.

Aionios is the the adjective derived from the noun aion, which does mean "age." Perhaps you can explain how the adjective entails more time than the noun. By the way, aionios was not the favored word for eternity used by the Greek philosophers, which was aidios. That word does occur in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 1:6, which refer respectively to God and the chains that hold the angels. At any rate, many early interpreters who spoke Greek knew the difference and didn't treat the adjective as somehow entailing more time than the noun.

 

[Der Alte]

Not limited duration, no. I understand it to be an age, meaning a finite amount of time, with a beginning and an end. Not eternal, in other words. However, one age follows the next.
Yes, I believe there will be an eternity divided by ages. The beginning of the afterlife will be the first of many ages. Is that the way you understand it?

...

The problem with what you "understand" is "aionios" is an adjective, "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.
Please share with us the vs(s) which state that, "one age follows the next" and "there will be an eternity divided by ages?"

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[Der Alte]

Aionios is the the adjective derived from the noun aion, which does mean "age." Perhaps you can explain how the adjective entails more time than the noun. By the way, aionios was not the favored word for eternity used by the Greek philosophers, which was aidios. That word does occur in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 1:6, which refer respectively to God and the chains that hold the angels. At any rate, many early interpreters who spoke Greek knew the difference and didn't treat the adjective as somehow entailing more time than the noun.

"Greek philosophers", "early interpreters," Empty words. Nothing but empty words with nothing supporting your claims. Your argument is a lexical fallacy. A "root word" fallacy occurs when one expects a derived word to mean exactly what the root word means. See e.g. "understand". What does "understand" have to do with being beneath something or being erect?
You mentioned the word "aidios."

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐδιος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰωνίὀς/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting. God, Himself, cannot be less than His power and Godhead.

 

[public hermit]

"Greek philosophers", "early interpreters," Empty words. Nothing but empty words with nothing supporting your claims. Your argument is a lexical fallacy. A "root word" fallacy occurs when one expects a derived word to mean exactly what the root word means. See e.g. "understand". What does "understand" have to do with being beneath something or being erect?
You mentioned the word "aidios."

Romans 1:20​

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐδιος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Romans 16:26​

(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰωνίὀς/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting. God, Himself, cannot be less than His power and Godhead.

I'm not convinced it has that meaning in every context. Neither were a good many early interpreters, despite your "empty words" comment. Why did Origen and Nyssa decide you were wrong? And, you know, perhaps Paul's amanuensis didn't know any better. What I do know is that things are not nearly as clear as you want them to be. Origen explicitely addresses this issue and remarks that it is odd to use the adjective to refer to more than an age. But, you do you, which I have all the faith you will.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not convinced it has that meaning in every context. Neither were a good many early interpreters, despite your "empty words" comment. Why did Origen and Nyssa decide you were wrong? And, you know, perhaps Paul's amanuensis didn't know any better. What I do know is that things are not nearly as clear as you want them to be. Origen explicitely addresses this issue and remarks that it is odd to use the adjective to refer to more than an age. But, you do you, which I have all the faith you will.

Perhaps things are not as clear as others want them to be? Vague reference to Paul's amanuensis, Origen and Nyssa. If it is "odd to use the adjective to refer to more than an age" I wonder why Jesus did it three times?

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [ζωὴ αἰώνιος]​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [αἰώνιος ζωὴ]​

John 10:28​

(28) And I give unto them eternal life; [αἰώνιος ζωὴ] and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

In these three vss. Jesus paralleled αἰώνιος ζωὴ/aionios life with "shall not perish," three times.
By definition αἰώνιος/aionios means eternal.
Maybe it was Origen who was wrong and NOT Jesus?

 

[public hermit]

Perhaps things are not as clear as others want them to be? Vague reference to Paul's amanuensis, Origen and Nyssa. If it is "odd to use the adjective to refer to more than an age" I wonder why Jesus did it three times?

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [ζωὴ αἰώνιος]​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [αἰώνιος ζωὴ]​

John 10:28​

(28) And I give unto them eternal life; [αἰώνιος ζωὴ] and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

In these three vss. Jesus paralleled αἰώνιος ζωὴ/aionios life with "shall not perish," three times.
By definition αἰώνιος/aionios means eternal.
Maybe it was Origen who was wrong and NOT Jesus?

Maybe you're assuming ages are eternal? For some proponents of UR, including the early fathers you are wont to disparage, some go to the age of life and others into the age of refining fire until God is all in all. Maybe it's your presuppositions regarding eternal punishment that cloud your ability to see it another way? In other words, once the ages are over, God is all in all. Do you really think they did not think this through? And what would the age of refining fire be like?

"Just as those who refine gold from the dross which it contains not only to get this base allow to melt in the fire, but are obliged to melt the pure gold along with the alloy, and then while this last is being consumed the gold remains, so while evil is being consumed in the purgatorial fire, the soul that is welded to the evil must inevitably be in the fire too, until the spurious material alloy is consumed and annihilated by this fire...only to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness” Gregory of Nyssa

 

[Der Alte]

Maybe you're assuming ages are eternal? For some proponents of UR, including the early fathers you are wont to disparage, some go to the age of life and others into the age of refining fire until God is all in all. Maybe it's your presuppositions regarding eternal punishment that cloud your ability to see it another way? In other words, once the ages are over, God is all in all. Do you really think they did not think this through? And what would the age of refining fire be like?
"Just as those who refine gold from the dross which it contains not only to get this base allow to melt in the fire, but are obliged to melt the pure gold along with the alloy, and then while this last is being consumed the gold remains, so while evil is being consumed in the purgatorial fire, the soul that is welded to the evil must inevitably be in the fire too, until the spurious material alloy is consumed and annihilated by this fire...only to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness” Gregory of Nyssa

Nope! The noun "aion" means eternity but is used figuratively sometimes to mean age. "Aionios" cannot be and is never translated "age" in the NT. I don't understand the relevance of the quote from Nyssa.

 

[public hermit]

Nope! The noun "aion" means eternity but is used figuratively sometimes to mean age. "Aionios" is never translated "age" in the NT. I don't understand the relevance of the quote from Nyssa.

Of course it means eternal because that is what you want it to mean! And, what I am saying is nonsense because it is not what you believe! However, if you translate it as an adjective derived from "age," then it no longer means eternal, but that is not what you want it to mean. Don't you see we are disagreeing over a translation? This is not a mystery to me, but you seem to think if you keep asserting it means eternal, I am somehow going to realize it does. Dear Der Alte, are we really going to act like this is our first day on the forums talking about this?

 

[Der Alte]

Of course it means eternal because that is what you want it to mean! And, what I am saying is nonsense because it is not what you believe! However, if you translate it as an adjective derived from "age," then it no longer means eternal, but that is not what you want it to mean. Don't you see we are disagreeing over a translation? This is not a mystery to me, but you seem to think if you keep asserting it means eternal, I am somehow going to realize it does. Dear Der Alte, are we really going to act like this is our first day on the forums talking about this?

I am retired X3 this, one might say, is my job. Some time back after many such arguments I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. Here is the result.
“aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]
= = = = = = = = = =
Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
In twenty-four [24] of the following verses αἰώνιος/aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,””age.” etc.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/for ever/everlasting.”

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/aiona [lit. unto eternity]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”

[3] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never​

[εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα[font]/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[5] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][unto eternity][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/lit. unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] [lit: unto the eternity of eternities] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “unto the aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[public hermit]

I am retired X3 this, one might say, is my job. Some time back after many such arguments I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. Here is the result.
“aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty-eight [28] times, 26% of the total. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
In twenty-four [24] of the following verses αἰώνιος/aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,””age.” etc.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/for ever/everlasting.”

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/aiona [lit. unto eternity]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”

[3] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never​

[εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα[font]/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[5] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen]I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][unto eternity][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]

None of this is incompatible with believers going to the age of life until God is all in all. And, either you can translate the word for "perishing" as final destruction or, perhaps, entrance into a state of being, but you definitely can't get "eternal" from John's language about perishing unless you bring it to the text. You are interpreting "perishing" as eternal torment, which is not warranted with John's language, and yet you somehow don't see that as incompatible with the text.

You say I am being unreasonable translating aionios as age-like, instead of eternal. I'm simply using the adjective in a fitting relation to the noun from which it comes, and that interpretation does have precedence. But let's assume I am simply bringing my presupposition to the text. Yet you don't see how your own presupposition informs the text, i.e., perihsing does not have to mean eternal punishiment. But that is what you claim I am doing? As if you are not? But, look, I agree! We do bring presuppositions to the text. I do, you do, and the proponent of conditional immortality does; we all do. Why? Because the scriptures are not clear. That means we have to determine which one of us has the better presupposition, which is something you refuse to do.

Is God willing to save all? Can God save all? If God can and is willing, what basis do we have to say it is not even possible? The scriptures are not clear. If they were, we wouldn't be discussing. The scriptures are clear that Jesus rose from the dead. What we can't seem to decide is how powerful that act is. Is it powerful enough to save all. If so, then is God simply not willing? Why not? That's a much better discussion than whether you and I disagree over aionios. We do; we don't have to keep having that discussion.

 

[Der Alte]

Deleted.

 

[Deafsilence]

Not limited duration, no. I understand it to be an age, meaning a finite amount of time, with a beginning and an end. Not eternal, in other words. However, one age follows the next.

Yes, I believe there will be an eternity divided by ages. The beginning of the afterlife will be the first of many ages. Is that the way you understand it?

Yes, but AIONIOS is an adjective, it is describing something as it relates to the age. Let's take a verse for example:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both 'everlasting' and 'eternal' in that verse are AIONIOS. None of them are saying that the LIFE or the PUNISHMENT is LIMITED and neither are saying that it is UNENDING. The word is simple saying that the LIFE and the PUNISHMENT will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the AGE. Consider that in the Old Testament this word is 'Olam'. And that word means 'concealed'. I like to think of it as the HORIZON. You don't know how far something goes beyond it but it goes beyond the horizon. How far is concealed from us.

 

[Der Alte]

None of this is incompatible with believers going to the age of life until God is all in all. And, either you can translate the word for "perishing" as final destruction or, perhaps, entrance into a state of being, but you definitely can't get "eternal" from John's language about perishing unless you bring it to the text. You are interpreting "perishing" as eternal torment, which is not warranted with John's language, and yet you somehow don't see that as incompatible with the text.
You say I am being unreasonable translating aionios as age-like, instead of eternal. I'm simply using the adjective in a fitting relation to the noun from which it comes, and that interpretation does have precedence. But let's assume I am simply bringing my presupposition to the text. Yet you don't see how your own presupposition informs the text, i.e., perihsing does not have to mean eternal punishiment. But that is what you claim I am doing? As if you are not? But, look, I agree! We do bring presuppositions to the text. I do, you do, and the proponent of conditional immortality does; we all do. Why? Because the scriptures are not clear. That means we have to determine which one of us has the better presupposition, which is something you refuse to do.
Is God willing to save all? Can God save all? If God can and is willing, what basis do we have to say it is not even possible? The scriptures are not clear. If they were, we wouldn't be discussing. The scriptures are clear that Jesus rose from the dead. What we can't seem to decide is how powerful that act is. Is it powerful enough to save all. If so, then is God simply not willing? Why not? That's a much better discussion than whether you and I disagree over aionios. We do; we don't have to keep having that discussion.

Perhaps this, perhaps that. You make a lot of claims but do not back them up., Who said I was interpreting "perishing" as eternal torment? Where have I ever used the term "eternal torment?" In neither of those posts did I say anything about eternal torment. But Jesus did say that some would go away into "eternal punishment." You accuse me of presuppositions when all I did was quote scripture. I did not add to it or detract from it and you are bent out of shape because it does not say what you want it to.
Is God going to save all? See Jeremiah 13:11-14 and Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28. Is Jesus going to save all see Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Deafsilence]

Aionios is the the adjective derived from the noun aion, which does mean "age." Perhaps you can explain how the adjective entails more time than the noun. By the way, aionios was not the favored word for eternity used by the Greek philosophers, which was aidios. That word does occur in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 1:6, which refer respectively to God and the chains that hold the angels. At any rate, many early interpreters who spoke Greek knew the difference and didn't treat the adjective as somehow entailing more time than the noun.

Again, it doesn't speak to the length of the duration. It only speaks to the fact that something goes beyond the boundary of the age. So something that is aionios is something that continues beyond the age. How long it continues or how long that duration is not expressed in the word.

This is important to understand because what this means is that something that is aionios should place our focus on the NEXT age. So AIONIOS LIFE should be telling us that this is LIFE that is into the NEXT Age. We don't know if it extends beyond that based on this adjective. I believe this meaning is perpetrated in making us focus on the Kingdom of Christ ahead in that next age.