Dad on Youtube

[dad]

And here's the rub Sarah...... Even if we permitted dad his crazy
'past state' nonsense..... the question would be 'So what...??'

We live in the here and now....how would the realisation that a different set of physical rules existing in the past have a bearing on the NOW...!?

Would a different 'past state' help our medicine, agriculture, technology, engineering NOW....?

Answer.....NO...! It's just a fairy story people like dad tell themselves to feel warm and fuzzy...

It's to be pitied.....

The great different state past idea leaves God as creator and the bible absolutely true. That affects everything, and makes any tinkering of science pale in comparison.

 

[dad]

You crack me up.....

Yes, we were sooooo much better off before science developed that 'wrong' germ theory, weren't we...!?

They did that, as well as develop WOMD when? In this state using our rules. Irrelevant.

People fared so much better when it was thought that diseases came from demons or 'bad air'....! Patients fared soooo much better when they were simply prayed over, rather than giving them the medicines and vaccines that we have now 'wrongly' developed through science...!

False comparison, all science is in this state, the creation debate is out of it. You cannot ride the coat tails of actual knowledge.

Ditto for atomic theory....

Ditto for gravitational theory....

Ditto for the heliocentric theory...

Need I go on......??

You can't I knocked the wind out of your sails. Citing present state uses for science never was an issue.

Yes, it was a much better time back when we were superstitiously burning and hanging and strangling all those women (because, of course, they were nearly all women, weren't they...?) for being 'witches', wasn't it...?

No idea what you are talking about. However, the 50 million babies killed a year or whatever the number is due to science. So is the people who die in atomic explosions etc.

 

[biggles53]

The great different state past idea leaves God as creator and the bible absolutely true. That affects everything, and makes any tinkering of science pale in comparison.

Oh no, no, no you don't...!!

EVERY SINGLE TIME someone brings up the historical development of science, you start squealing your 'past state' bilge, whining that what happens now 'doesn't count' because the past and the present can't be linked...

NOW THAT IT SUITS YOUR PURPOSES, you cowardly try to argue that the past now "affects everything" IN THE PRESENT....!!

I don't have to defeat you.....you've just done it yourself...!

 

[anyathesword]

How should I know? I've never witnessed such a thing, how am could I possibly make any reasonable speculation?



Again, how am I supposed to answer this question in any real way? I can't. I have no concept of what that even means. I could make up something, if you like, but it's just going to be a blind guess that has absolutely no weight or backing. I could say it's anything, and any answer I give is going to have exactly the same amount of support - NONE.

Well, I do not think it is that complicated to answer..

You still haven't answered.....

Don't forget about other terms used for the heavens.."torn up", "worn out like a garment", "shaken", "burnt up", "split up", and "rolled up"..

What does that mean??? Science has been able to back up the Bible...the universe is expanding and getting older...

 

[anyathesword]

Oh what rubbish....! You take one word (in English, by the way....who knows what the original word was in the text...) and cling to it desperately in order to make it fit your argument...! To do this, you will then have to conveniently ignore all of the other ridiculous claims it makes about the cosmos....

NATAH
Strong's Number: 5186

Original Word Word Origin
htn a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Natah TWOT - 1352
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
naw-taw' Verb

Definition
to stretch out, extend, spread out, pitch, turn, pervert, incline, bend, bow (Qal) to stretch out, extend, stretch, offer
to spread out, pitch (tent)
to bend, turn, incline 1a

to turn aside, incline, decline, bend down 1a
to bend, bow 1a
to hold out, extend (fig.)
(Niphal) to be stretched out
(Hiphil) to stretch out
to spread out
to turn, incline, influence, bend down, hold out, extend, thrust aside, thrust away



It's rediculous to you because it's right and true, that's all! Why are you not answering my question of what the phrase could mean?

Stretching out the heavens?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Stretching out the heavens like a tent. Or like a curtain. Or like a tent curtain.

Or like a canopy. Depending on the translation.

That seems a fairly straightforward bit of poetry to me. Remember, they viewed the heavens as a sort of inverted bowl in ancient times.

And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the universe expanding.

 

[biggles53]

NATAH
Strong's Number: 5186

Original Word Word Origin
htn a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Natah TWOT - 1352
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
naw-taw' Verb

Definition
to stretch out, extend, spread out, pitch, turn, pervert, incline, bend, bow (Qal) to stretch out, extend, stretch, offer
to spread out, pitch (tent)
to bend, turn, incline 1a

to turn aside, incline, decline, bend down 1a
to bend, bow 1a
to hold out, extend (fig.)
(Niphal) to be stretched out
(Hiphil) to stretch out
to spread out
to turn, incline, influence, bend down, hold out, extend, thrust aside, thrust away



It's rediculous to you because it's right and true, that's all! Why are you not answering my question of what the phrase could mean?

Stretching out the heavens?

As already mentioned, none of this makes reference to an EXPANSION, an ongoing EXPANSION, of the universe. Since it speaks of stretching out a tent, it seems pretty clear that it's talking about something with a FIXED area which has been arranged above the earth...

You see Anya, if you're going to place your understanding on these fairy stories, you unfortunately have to own ALL of it, not just the bits that suit your argument...!

 

[anyathesword]

As already mentioned, none of this makes reference to an EXPANSION, an ongoing EXPANSION, of the universe. Since it speaks of stretching out a tent, it seems pretty clear that it's talking about something with a FIXED area which has been arranged above the earth...

You see Anya, if you're going to place your understanding on these fairy stories, you unfortunately have to own ALL of it, not just the bits that suit your argument...!

Ok, if these phrases of stretching out the heavens means nothing to you, then explain to me what these phrases can mean; the heavens can be "torn,"8 "worn out" like a garment,9 "shaken,"10 "burnt up,"11 "split apart" like a scroll, 12 and "rolled up" like a mantle13 or a scroll.14 The concept of being "rolled up" carries some additional insights. There must be some dimension in which space is "thin." If space can be "bent," there must be a direction it can be bent toward . Thus, this tells us that there must be additional dimensions beyond those of space itself. And what about the velocity of light-is it really a constant as most physicists have been taught to presume?
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/245/

What does heaven look like when you tear it, roll it up, burn it up, split it apart?

Expansion is the universe starting from a beginning and moving apart from this beginning, expanding, stretching out, start moving away from each other, etc.

And only one verse gave an image of ' like a tent', the phrase occurs 17 times. Heavens is also the universe. I don't know why you can't just accept the fact that God knew what He was talking about when He told the authors to write down His very words.

 

[anyathesword]

Stretching out the heavens like a tent. Or like a curtain. Or like a tent curtain.

Or like a canopy. Depending on the translation.

That seems a fairly straightforward bit of poetry to me. Remember, they viewed the heavens as a sort of inverted bowl in ancient times.

And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the universe expanding.

It mentions many times that God stretches out the heavens, period. The other phrases are to give imagery to help us understand what it looks like.

When you buy a tent it's all in one place. You take it out of the package and then what happens? The ends of the tent EXPAND, move AWAY from the center of the tent. Don't tell me the universe is not expanding...

 

[biggles53]

It mentions many times that God stretches out the heavens, period. The other phrases are to give imagery to help us understand what it looks like.

When you buy a tent it's all in one place. You take it out of the package and then what happens? The ends of the tent EXPAND, move AWAY from the center of the tent. Don't tell me the universe is not expanding...

And your tent is a FIXED SIZE OBJECT....!

Your desperation is quite pathetic....

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I don't know why you can't just accept the fact that God knew what He was talking about when He told the authors to write down His very words.

Because it wasn't written by any god, just a man with a poetic turn of phrase and a view of the world and the heavens that is very different from yours and mine. It reminds me a bit of some of the the rubaiyat of omar kayyam, which starts with:

Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night
Has flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight:
And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught
The Sultan's Turret in a Noose of Light

It's a not dissimilar perspective expressed in a not dissimilar poetic style.

 

[PsychoSarah]

False. The speculation result is at the end, the belief basis is at the beginning and all the way through!

You are confusing the hypothesis with the conclusion. A hypothesis is a guess at what will happen, but it doesn't (if the experiment is done right, anyways) have an impact on the conclusion. The conclusion can be completely different from the hypothesis.

 

[anyathesword]

And your tent is a FIXED SIZE OBJECT....!

Your desperation is quite pathetic....

You are so full of nice things to say to people who don't agree with you. Have a little more respect, even when you are wrong.

You still haven't answered my questions. A tent is just an image for our minds to see what it looks like.

Have you ever learned about similes? Figures of speech? I hope so.

When you say something is like something else, you aren't really saying it is that something. The sky, even the area above our heads, our atmosphere doesn't even look like a tent, it isn't a fixed area. There is no fixed boundary between our atmosphere and outer space.

So we all know the heavens are not a fixed area. So the tent is not a definite tool to describe the actual act of stretching to a fixed area. Because it isn't possible anyway. Science has proven this. The tent is just an image for our minds to comprehend what stretching of the heavens would look like.

But suit yourself, avoid my questions and tell me nonsense about the way I debate.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You are so full of nice things to say to people who don't agree with you. Have a little more respect, even when you are wrong.

You still haven't answered my questions. A tent is just an image for our minds to see what it looks like.

Have you ever learned about similes? Figures of speech? I hope so.

When you say something is like something else, you aren't really saying it is that something. The sky, even the area above our heads, our atmosphere doesn't even look like a tent, it isn't a fixed area. There is no fixed boundary between our atmosphere and outer space.

So we all know the heavens are not a fixed area. So the tent is not a definite tool to describe the actual act of stretching to a fixed area. Because it isn't possible anyway. Science has proven this. The tent is just an image for our minds to comprehend what stretching of the heavens would look like.

But suit yourself, avoid my questions and tell me nonsense about the way I debate.

Then why can't the whole of the bible be allegory?

 

[anyathesword]

Then why can't the whole of the bible be allegory?

You really think the whole Bible is allegory?

Unfortunatly, it's not.

It's history, poetry, parables, prophecies, etc.

That's a strange question to answer, it's not why can't it be, it just isn't.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You really think the whole Bible is allegory?

Unfortunatly, it's not.

It's history, poetry, parables, prophecies, etc.

That's a strange question to answer, it's not why can't it be, it just isn't.

If there is no reason it couldn't be, then why claim it isn't?

 

[anyathesword]

Because it wasn't written by any god, just a man with a poetic turn of phrase and a view of the world and the heavens that is very different from yours and mine. It reminds me a bit of some of the the rubaiyat of omar kayyam, which starts with:
It's a not dissimilar perspective expressed in a not dissimilar poetic style.

What man are you talking about? The phrase "stretching out the heavens" was written in several different books by different authors.

No the Bible isn't written like this...

 

[anyathesword]

If there is no reason it couldn't be, then why claim it isn't?

So you pretty much want me to explain to you why the Bible is not allegory?

Well
1. It's full of factual history
2. It is full of witness accounts
3. It has parables
4. It has prophecies
5. It has letters
6. It has real people and places
7. It is the history of the beginning of a huge group of people Isrealites/Jews
8. It is written over a thousand years
9. By over 40 authors who didn't know each other
10. Why would someone want to destroy an allegory?
11. It has authority.
12. It claims to be The Truth
13. I don't believe in allegory truths..
14. It has the power to save a soul
15. It has the power to change a person completely
16. People base their whole way of living on this Book
17. It hurts if it hits the right spot
18. Each book is written with a different style and intent
19. Different audiances are meant for different parts of the Bible
20. It is the most influential Book of all time used by all sorts of different people.

 

[PsychoSarah]

So you pretty much want me to explain to you why the Bible is not allegory?

Well
1. It's full of factual history
2. It is full of witness accounts
3. It has parables
4. It has prophecies
5. It has letters
6. It has real people and places
7. It is the history of the beginning of a huge group of people Isrealites/Jews
8. It is written over a thousand years
9. By over 40 authors who didn't know each other
10. Why would someone want to destroy an allegory?
11. It has authority.
12. It claims to be The Truth
13. I don't believe in allegory truths..
14. It has the power to save a soul
15. It has the power to change a person completely
16. People base their whole way of living on this Book
17. It hurts if it hits the right spot
18. Each book is written with a different style and intent
19. Different audiances are meant for different parts of the Bible
20. It is the most influential Book of all time used by all sorts of different people.

Numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, and 20 are not evidence or logical reasonings to the bible not being mostly allegory or entirely allegory.

Only 4 of those points are reasonable arguments.

 

[anyathesword]

Numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, and 20 are not evidence or logical reasonings to the bible not being mostly allegory or entirely allegory.

Only 4 of those points are reasonable arguments.

Ok..