Curious

[riverrat]

Biblewriter : I thought you knew that the preterist Bible is just the N.T.

 

[Rev20]

I am not going to bother to go back through multiple threads to dig out proof quotes.

The fact is that the objections to what I write have been filled with comments such as "he has nothing but Ezekiel," "you need to study the New Testament," "show me that in the New Testament," and such drivel.

I see. That is good advice, Biblewriter. You really do need to study the New Testament, but without the veil of the Old Testament hanging over it.

 

[KrAZeD]

doubt many will grasp this, if one were to ignore prophecy events that never took place, that are written with precise details and foretold of eventually happening then what was the point of having them said? That would G the obvious of God saying something is going to happen and well it "didn't". Some would try to sugar coat that dilemma and say He was showing compassion or repenting of something instead of the obvious it's either a lie or deception/confusion, neither is a charaistic of our God. All prophecy should have a fulfillment, if one can not show 100% accurate fulfillment then it's still going to happen or that would prove God fallible.

A prophecy that has not shown completion in the Old Testament and then is not shown complete or reiterated in the New Testament should red flag us all, to ask why. If it's not completed by the writing of the nt then it hasn't happened, meaning it will happen in a future date. To say all ot prophecies (not clearly spelled out fulfilled) are fulfilled through our Lord- either it's still FUTURE or provide the verse showing it CURRENTLY fulfilled as the prophecy outlines. Words such as soon and shortly are not proof of anything since no one knows exactly what the intended length is- it's speculated. If one is to decide the Old Testament doesn't hold the exact importance value as the new then one would have to explain who issued those words in the Old Testament- Jesus clearly says His words shall not pass away, yet are we to believe Gods or the Holy spirits can and will?

zech 14:4 where's this valley located at? Coincidently the same mountain We get matt 24 told from, while the prophecy (zech 14) is not in the New Testament, we can see when Jesus was on the actual mount it never split, even today their is not a valley that fits the description of that prophecy meaning it will happen in the future. Though I already understand those who are adamant about no Old Testament prophecy remains must take a literal mound of dirt fortold of undergoing literal and physical changes in exact directions for an exact reason we all should comprehend, and make it a metaphor..........

 

[Interplanner]

A metaphor or just a declaration of complete overturning of the familiar. "The crooked straight; The rough places plain" says a passage about the voice crying in the wilderness to prepare the way of the Lord (Messiah). Were they? No. But the image was used to help us realize the extent of changes Messiah would bring to Israel.

There is no prophecy for idle reason in the OT or just to dazzle people who don't believe it can exist, or to outdo those of Nostradamus or somesuch. It exists to frame the Gospel as a useful and necessary message.

Therefore we don't have to be worried about BW's main concern--of dozens of specific and literal passages that haven't happened yet. They are all trees lacking a forest.

 

[Jipsah]

I am curious as to why this sub-forum has been invaded by so many trolls whose sole purpose is to discredit the entire study of eschatology.

Oh give it a rest, BW. What you're really asking is why so many of the participants here reject your bizzaro views on eschatolology. The answer is simple - your view is a contrivance made by cobbling together unrelated Scriptures to suit a doctrine that you accepted a priori, and which contains much that is unscriptural and some that is downright heretical. (The appalling notion that animal sacrifice will be reinstated, for instance).

Why do these people think it is appropriate to come to a place dedicated to a particular field of scriptural study, only to attack the study itself?

No one has attacked eschatology, they have attacked your particular view of eschatology, which very much needs to be attacked.

 

[Jipsah]

Which is correct? What the scriptures actually say, or what someone claims they mean?

Unfortunately for futurist eschatology, the former.

But again, why do you keep coming here and denying that eschatology is a profitable subject for scriptural study?

Dispensational Futurism is based on scriptural Rube Goldbergery.

 

[Jipsah]

It may be helpful to quit living in the past. Most of us on this forum choose to live by faith as we look forward to the promises/prophecies being fulfilled.

Still waiting for temple sacrifice to cease?

knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffer

That doesn't mean scoffing at bad/stupid doctrine, which is what DP is. It deserves every scoff it gets.

 

[Jipsah]

I, and others, have no problem with opposing views of eschatology.

As long as they don't post here.

Nor do we have very much patience with people who twist prophecies into pretzels in order to make imaginary fits between the prophecies and non-matching historical events.

Really? So, is 70*7>2000? Really? And temple sacrifice hasn't ceased yet? Really? Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Interplanner]

Eschatology isn't "profitable for study." Study is profitable to know how to magnify the power of the Gospel, even using eschatology. I would say many of the "studies" here are not worth their time and are irresolveable.

 

[Jipsah]

A prophecy that has not shown completion in the Old Testament and then is not shown complete or reiterated in the New Testament should red flag us all, to ask why. If it's not completed by the writing of the nt then it hasn't happened, meaning it will happen in a future date.

So you're in agreement with BW that we have the reboot of animal sacrifice to look forward to, correct? If so then it's a great shame, since the writer of Hebrews agrees with that idea not at all. (Don't take my word for it, read it!)

Words such as soon and shortly are not proof of anything since no one knows exactly what the intended length

Yeah, it's really hard to figure out what terms like "soon" and "quickly" and "at hand" and "even at the door" really mean, especially when you hold to a doctrine that depends on them not meaning anything at all.

If one is to decide the Old Testament doesn't hold the exact importance value as the new then one would have to explain who issued those words in the Old Testament- Jesus clearly says His words shall not pass away, yet are we to believe Gods or the Holy spirits can and will?

Then it's back to sacrificing livestock, then. Apparently Christ's sacrifice was only effective for a limited period of time, right?

 

[Jipsah]

claiming, as some do, that we should be studying other parts of the Bible instead of these parts.

I'd say that studying the New Covenant is a bit more important than studying the Old Covenant, don't you think?

Believe it or not, it really is All About Christ.

 

[Jipsah]

These trolls seem to be dedicated to the prevention of any rational discussion of end time prophecy.

Then their task was completed before they showed up.

Let's get back to the real eschatology - the resumption of animal sacrifice aand flying saucers! All this New Testament stuff is too distracting.

 

[Biblewriter]

Look at the last two posts, then read this one:

Eschatology isn't "profitable for study." Study is profitable to know how to magnify the power of the Gospel, even using eschatology. I would say many of the "studies" here are not worth their time and are irresolveable.

 

[KrAZeD]

So you're in agreement with BW that we have the reboot of animal sacrifice to look forward to, correct? If so then it's a great shame, since the writer of Hebrews agrees with that idea not at all. (Don't take my word for it, read it!)

Then it's back to sacrificing livestock, then. Apparently Christ's sacrifice was only effective for a limited period of time, right?

Who said anything about a VALIDATED animal sacrificial system? While yes a sacrificial system might happen I for one have not and will not claim it a valid system for salvation or forgiveness of sin. We as Christians know and believe the TRUE messiah has come; our Lord Jesus. The jews/hebrews/Israelites whatever label one would like to classify them as are STILL WAITING for Jesus (their messiah) to come- they are blinded to the truth we ALREADY KNOW. So yes, they might FOOLISHLY bring it back, but because they bring it back will not change the fact it is futile and as many with opposing views put it- a slap in Gods face.

Yeah, it's really hard to figure out what terms like "soon" and "quickly" and "at hand" and "even at the door" really mean, especially when you hold to a doctrine that depends on them not meaning anything at all.

is that soon as 1 hour, one day, one week, one month, one year etc. Is it soon in our view or is that soon to God. Is that soon to the first recipients perception or is that soon as in at any moment like a 6k-8k meter wall of water barreling down on you? Is that the same soon as a prophet warning of Gods wrath 300 years in advance or is that the soon as in the same year? Is that the same soon that was told to the previous generation intended for a completely different one? Gods timetable is not concisely established to always equal what a particular audience has presumed. So while you perceive to know what God meant its only assumed since theirs not much of consistency to factually base an understanding of soon honestly on. With respect your view might G right and then again mine might G the correct one.

While the term "soon" is used we as men attempt to understand it with what we feel is justified. To describe 2 millennia as soon in human longevity terms seems foolish. Throw in ad70 events and their appears to G a fulfillment. Though why is it "appearing" to some and unfulfilled to others, the lack of a 100% clarity fulfillment is the dividing line. The ad 70 events provide a timetable that appears to meet a criteria of the understanding of "soon" with majority of the temple and city being torn to ruins, throw in a work describing the events and to some the case of soon is settled, wether or not he was completely truthful or ordained by God FOR that work.

Though if a term like soon is given from God, and meant how He intends, 2k+ years verse an eternity can get seen as soon. 2k+ years to us but 2 days to Him-still quantifies as soon. Though that doesn't typically compute to the other side. Let alone the aspect of if it were told its "x" years what the attitude of men would G towards that prophecy. If ones told something will happen 200 years down the road we naturally would tend to ignore it or postpone our concerns for it since it honestly doesn't apply to us. Usage of a term to in essence keep one on its toes provides hope, trust, thankfulness, and keeps us ready at all times. Though then again soon is also acceptable if we acknowledge Jesus is working on bringing everything to a close, for we all shall get to see Him in all His Glory soon.

 

[Interplanner]

Krazed wrote:
So yes, they might FOOLISHLY bring it back

But this is not the claim. The claim is that God will bring it back.

Everyone needs to examine 2P2P and figure out once for all if it is Biblical or not. 2P2P is what reboots things about Israel because the belief is that the Gospel and its mission was not the only thing going on in the Bible.

 

[Rev20]

Look at the last two posts, then read this one:

What is not biblical about any of those posts, Biblewriter? Are you of the opinion that one must interpret old testament prophecy in the manner of a futurist to be saved?

Biblewriter, the Law is fulfilled by loving one's neighbor; and fulfilling that law is the only way on earth you will keep the Lord's commandments:

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." -- Ecc 12:13-14​

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." -- 1Joh 5:3​

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." -- 1Joh 4:7​

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -- Gal 5:14​

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." -- John 15:12​

"These things I command you, that ye love one another." -- John 15:17​

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." -- John 14:15​

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." -- John 14:21​

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -- Matt 22:36-40​

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." -- Matt 7:12​

Those who believe that we must interpret prophecy this way or that way to be saved, is denying Jesus Christ:

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -- John 5:37-40 KJV​

That is not a matter-of-fact statement by Christ, but a warning.

 

[parousia70]

is that soon as 1 hour, one day, one week, one month, one year etc. Is it soon in our view or is that soon to God. Is that soon to the first recipients perception or is that soon as in at any moment like a 6k-8k meter wall of water barreling down on you? Is that the same soon as a prophet warning of Gods wrath 300 years in advance or is that the soon as in the same year? Is that the same soon that was told to the previous generation intended for a completely different one? Gods timetable is not concisely established to always equal what a particular audience has presumed. So while you perceive to know what God meant its only assumed since theirs not much of consistency to factually base an understanding of soon honestly on.

Perhaps you could clear something up then....How about you tell us what meaning Jesus was using here:
Matt 24:33
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Is this "near and at the doors" on Gods timetable or Mans in this passage krazed?

Was Jesus telling His disciples in Matt 24:33, when you see all these things, know that it is "near to God but thousands of years away for man"? or was Jesus using the terms near and at the doors in the plain human sense and understanding of those terms?

Usage of a term to in essence keep one on its toes provides hope, trust, thankfulness, and keeps us ready at all times.

So He used the term to mislead all His followers from all previous generations to ours - any perhaps even ours - into thinking it COULD happen soon for us/them, so they/we would act correctly throughout our lifetime?

Really? This is your contention?

 

[Jipsah]

Who said anything about a VALIDATED animal sacrificial system?

Well, specifically BibleWriter and those who believe as he does. Ask him, he'll confirm it. They believe that prophecies in Ezekiel relating to animal sacrifice haven't been fulfilled, and so the ritual slaughter of livestock as sacrifices to God must be restarted. Nemmind that the very idea is abominable in the light of New Covenant Christianity.

So yes, they might FOOLISHLY bring it back

I doubt it; there's nothing in Scripture that indicates that once sacrifice has ceased it'll ever come back, even as a sacrilege.

, but because they bring it back will not change the fact it is futile and as many with opposing views put it- a slap in Gods face.

Agreed. But that's because I'm an Evil Preterist (Orthodox version, thankee) and believe that that particular prophecy has been fulfilled.

is that soon as 1 hour, one day, one week, one month, one year etc. Is it soon in our view or is that soon to God.

The "soon to God" schtick effectively means that when Scripture says "soon" or "at hand" that it's meaningless to us. If that is the case, then why not only say it, but reiterate it again and again?

 

[KrAZeD]

dup

 

[KrAZeD]

Perhaps you could clear something up then....How about you tell us what meaning Jesus was using here:
Matt 24:33
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Is this "near and at the doors" on Gods timetable or Mans in this passage krazed?

Was Jesus telling His disciples in Matt 24:33, when you see all these things, know that it is "near to God but thousands of years away for man"? or was Jesus using the terms near and at the doors in the plain human sense and understanding of those terms?

to answer we'd start by looking at the portion that says -.."know that it is near,"- since the issue is the "when" we can leave the how,what,why,and where to the side. The when which is graciously provided in the verse- .."when ye shall see all these things,.." is self explanatory. So when we see or can account for ALL those THINGS we know that immediately after the final part or when the final part is coming to a close that the near is also in play and the knocking is at least taking place at that particular time.

The verse you chose has an explained time given that correlates when we can and should expect the "near". While the time of it starting 40 years later or 2k+ is a question neither one of us can absolutely prove. What we should agree on is wether or not all those events outlined that are required for the "near" to start have actually finished. If there is any part not complete then can you honestly believe that the "near" is not on a 2k+ year table? Verses 30-31 is their any documented proof that those verses ever really took place? While you might not view that as a global event-"and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn"- "all" and "earth" lead me to view global as well as -.."from one end of heaven to the other." - all heavens and the entire universes and dimensions (if applicable). An event on that majestic scale is going to get documented repeatedly like the flood through the many religious and sub cultures of humanity. Let alone, How can we imagine or believe that NOONE has written about The Son of Man's Glory and power that descended from heaven? Can you honestly convince yourself that not one unbeliever wrote about the undeniable truth of Jesus if they witnessed Him descending and not then immediately converted, I personally can not.

While I'm sure you just wanted a simple yes or no answer that is the best I can go without just saying I don't know but believe it's somehow an honest choosing of words from our Lord that meant 2k+ years.

So He used the term to mislead all His followers from all previous generations to ours - any perhaps even ours - into thinking it COULD happen soon for us/them, so they/we would act correctly throughout our lifetime?

Really? This is your contention?

Choosing to view it as "misleading" is a touchy issue since it does humanly qualify in that category and I can't fault you for calling that out. An maybe their is a better way to have put my belief into words but I went that route. So the only example I can give that hopefully would explain my contention would G an example we all should know and can understand since we can see the completion of what was implied, meant, and explained from our Lord that appeared a contradiction until fully viewed.

.."for in the DAY that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE."; "neither shall ye touch it, lest ye DIE."......but....."in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the DAYS of thy life;". And Adam LIVED an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness,..."
5 And ALL THE DAYS that Adam LIVED were nine hundred and thirty years: and he (THEN) died.

Did adam not get told that in the day he ate he would die, was/is that misleading to you currently or do you understand how God meant it and can see it being 100% honest? I'm not convinced Adam expected to not die the moment He ate it, but seeing Eve walk around changed his mind but do you think he thought he was mislead? I don't, I think he grasped at that time what was truly meant.