Curious

[Interplanner]

The meaning of Adam's death and the meaning of Christ's coming may share more in their similar quality than you have allowed. Many things "died" for mankind that day, for sure.

 

[KrAZeD]

They believe that prophecies in Ezekiel relating to animal sacrifice haven't been fulfilled, and so the ritual slaughter of livestock as sacrifices to God must be restarted. Nemmind that the very idea is abominable in the light of New Covenant Christianity.

Christians- believers of Jesus being the messiah, should all agree that animal sacrifices are no longer usable for atonement. The issue should not G that Christians desire/want to revert back to them. The issue is Jews/Israel wanting them back, the same ones who DENY currently that Jesus is and was the Messiah. So we believe that a prophecy is unfulfilled no biggie**, the fact that UNBELIEVERS of the messiah might restart one is saddening. However if viewed that those unbelievers are still waiting for a messiah then it's foolish to think that they have forgotten that their "only" way of atonement was through animal sacrifices (again wrong but honest from that view).

**Though the questioning of Ezekiel, burnt and peace offerings are offensive how, seriously? While I grasp the fact that a burnt offering might get thought of as the same as the sin offering their is a difference. Peace and burnt were offered willingly for respect and appreciation of God, He enjoys the sweet-savor does He not? Sin/trespass were completely different- they were required and not enjoyable to our Lord. Remember Isaac was suppose to get used in that "burnt" offering.

I doubt it; there's nothing in Scripture that indicates that once sacrifice has ceased it'll ever come back, even as a sacrilege.

Is it possible we will eat in "heaven"? Is it possible we would still provide a sacrifice of something to our Lord during that time(for thanks)? Is it possible that their might G a memorial-esq type of event that we all attend- luke 22:15-16. While possibly not a true sacrifice time shall tell. Though those people in the Middle East really do want to prove you wrong if they could ever get full control of that little patch of dirt.

The "soon to God" schtick effectively means that when Scripture says "soon" or "at hand" that it's meaningless to us. If that is the case, then why not only say it, but reiterate it again and again?

Would they mean the same or have the same feel to them if no time description were given? How many more prayers and complaints of when do you'd suppose He'd receive, would it surpass the amount of sin offerings offered that He become disgusted with?

 

[KrAZeD]

The meaning of Adam's death and the meaning of Christ's coming may share more in their similar quality than you have allowed. Many things "died" for mankind that day, for sure.

In no way was I attempting to limit anything. Just iterating that the perception of what Adam and Eve personally had at a previous time period of a warning from God that seemed not correct after the fact, while being correct. Neither was I attempting to distort the passages, but using one that we should all know the multiple angles of what was meant, said and implied by God.

For: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"

what death did she believe GOD himself had meant-
"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

If it was anything other than immediate physical death then satan did not lie in that Garden to eve- He would in fact have told her the "truth".
If he knew what they believed and challenged that with a distortion of their understanding he indeed did mislead her and lie unless deciet means something else here.

verse 13-beguile
charm or enchant (someone), sometimes in a deceptive way.

 

[Biblewriter]

What is not biblical about any of those posts, Biblewriter? Are you of the opinion that one must interpret old testament prophecy in the manner of a futurist to be saved?

Biblewriter, the Law is fulfilled by loving one's neighbor; and fulfilling that law is the only way on earth you will keep the Lord's commandments:

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." -- Ecc 12:13-14​

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." -- 1Joh 5:3​

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." -- 1Joh 4:7​

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -- Gal 5:14​

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." -- John 15:12​

"These things I command you, that ye love one another." -- John 15:17​

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." -- John 14:15​

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." -- John 14:21​

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -- Matt 22:36-40​

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." -- Matt 7:12​

Those who believe that we must interpret prophecy this way or that way to be saved, is denying Jesus Christ:

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -- John 5:37-40 KJV​

That is not a matter-of-fact statement by Christ, but a warning.

I have never once said, or even so much as implied, that believing that the prophecies in the Bible will be literally fulfilled is necessary for salvation. I never would have said anything even remotely resembling that, for that would be a contradiction of everything I stand for.

 

[Biblewriter]

The "soon to God" schtick effectively means that when Scripture says "soon" or "at hand" that it's meaningless to us. If that is the case, then why not only say it, but reiterate it again and again?

Just remember that the words "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8) was an inspired answer to people complaining about apparent delay in the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

 

[ebedmelech]

Christians- believers of Jesus being the messiah, should all agree that animal sacrifices are no longer usable for atonement. The issue should not G that Christians desire/want to revert back to them. The issue is Jews/Israel wanting them back, the same ones who DENY currently that Jesus is and was the Messiah. So we believe that a prophecy is unfulfilled no biggie**, the fact that UNBELIEVERS of the messiah might restart one is saddening. However if viewed that those unbelievers are still waiting for a messiah then it's foolish to think that they have forgotten that their "only" way of atonement was through animal sacrifices (again wrong but honest from that view).

**Though the questioning of Ezekiel, burnt and peace offerings are offensive how, seriously? While I grasp the fact that a burnt offering might get thought of as the same as the sin offering their is a difference. Peace and burnt were offered willingly for respect and appreciation of God, He enjoys the sweet-savor does He not? Sin/trespass were completely different- they were required and not enjoyable to our Lord. Remember Isaac was suppose to get used in that "burnt" offering.

They are offensive because EVERY sacrifice point to Christ! Therefore to continue doing them when Christ was the Passover Lamb/Scapegoat/Red Heifer etc is offensive!

Let me add it proves again what Jesus pointed to in quoting Isaiah in Matthew 15:7
7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”

To continue offering animal sacrifices is an attempt to worship God contrary to the New Covenant! Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED"! Do you not recall how strict God was in the sacrifcial worship of the OT? Consider Nadab and Abihu dying because they offer incense other than what God prescribed...or Uzziah getting struck with leprosy entering the temple to offer sacrifice when He was not of the priesthood. You can bet animal sacrifice is offensive!

Is it possible we will eat in "heaven"? Is it possible we would still provide a sacrifice of something to our Lord during that time(for thanks)? Is it possible that their might G a memorial-esq type of event that we all attend- luke 22:15-16. While possibly not a true sacrifice time shall tell. Though those people in the Middle East really do want to prove you wrong if they could ever get full control of that little patch of dirt.

Of it's possible we will eat in heaven...BUT NOT MEAT. Remember Revelation 21:4 say there will be "NO MORE DEATH"? When Jesus restores creation we will be eating what Adam and eve ate before the fall.

 

[Danoh]

I have never once said, or even so much as implied, that believing that the prophecies in the Bible will be literally fulfilled is necessary for salvation. I never would have said anything even remotely resembling that, for that would be a contradiction of everything I stand for.

Goes with the territory that is the ignorance of insisting on summaries.

In this, you're caught between the rock and the hard place that is the ignorance of some, in their insistence - that one "get to the point" only to have to deal either with, "well, why didn't you mention that," if not, "well, you left this, and this, and this, and this out..."

One suspects that such are so brought up on the words of others that they are simply unable to fill in the blanks without... "a book that might show me what this, that, the other is all about..."

And such are easily offended when this is pointed out - all that time in books having given them a sense of "knowing," thus, their so easily offended sensibility...

 

[Interplanner]

Danoh,
my other book is the list of NT chapters I keep listing.

BW has said that a person has to believe that prophecy is exactly literal in fulfillment as he understands it. I'm glad he did not make salvation attached to it, because it is problem enough as is.

 

[Douggg]

Christians- believers of Jesus being the messiah, should all agree that animal sacrifices are no longer usable for atonement. The issue should not G that Christians desire/want to revert back to them. The issue is Jews/Israel wanting them back, the same ones who DENY currently that Jesus is and was the Messiah. So we believe that a prophecy is unfulfilled no biggie**, the fact that UNBELIEVERS of the messiah might restart one is saddening. However if viewed that those unbelievers are still waiting for a messiah then it's foolish to think that they have forgotten that their "only" way of atonement was through animal sacrifices (again wrong but honest from that view).

I would like to comment.

In Judaism, they believe that it is intrinsic to humans that everyone has eternal life. It is part of the human condition, and that death itself is an atonement. In their view, only the very wicked don't have a place in the world to come.

When there is not a temple in existence, their prayers are substitute for the animal sacrifices, like when the were in the Babylonian captivity according to their beliefs. So in Judaism nothing has changed.

To Judaism, the issue of "the" messiah is who is the great promised King of Israel, descended from David, who will lead them and the world into a time of peace and harmony.

This is also true in the Christian bible. "Christ" means the King of Israel".

Mark 15: 32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Now let me explain where Israel, the Jews went wrong....and the connection they have not made with Jesus. btw, this never comes up in arguments between Jews and Christians - if you want to try it sometime.

It was long before Jesus's time. In 1Samuel10, they wanted a king like the surrounding nations. To God, this was an big time offense because He was their King, and after everything He had done for them they were rejecting him as King. And God let them know.

It is repeated again in 1Samuel12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the Lord your God was your king.


17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the Lord, and he shall send thunder and rain; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the Lord, in asking you a king.

So it was a big time sin in wanting a man-king instead of God as the King of Israel back then....and it still is today. Which Judaism has never repented and still wants the messiah - King of Israel - to be a man, when God is the rightful King of Israel. But they not make the connection that God the rightful King entered this world as Jesus to take his place as the rightful King - saying to them that he was God as that is who is was come from heaven, but they crucified him for it - completely forgetting that God is the rightful King and not some man regardless if their own desires.

Now we get to the Torah observance held dear to Judaism and the gospel of Salvation which they reject. The Jews say that they make Teshuvah, to return to God and his laws. Well they didn't have those laws until Mt. Sinai and God spoke to them. Exodus 20:22 And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

God was not in heaven that time but came down from heaven, to tell them things from heaven. Which he gave them the Torah.

When the Lord entered this world as Jesus, coming down from heaven, he told them although that have the Law, the Torah, they would die in their sins and not have eternal life unless they believe in him, drinking his blood and eating his flesh.

So the Torah, the Law, God as the King of Israel had to reveal it to them by coming from heaven; so too, God came from heaven as the rightful King of Israel, to die for their sins and reveal the mystery of God in the redemption of our bodies and souls by means of the gospel -

.....but Jews don't make the connection between God being the rightful King of Israel revealing to them, and Jesus being God revealing to them. ... to reveal to them things from heaven they would otherwise never know.

And the Jews still want a man-king as King of Israel, unwary that it is the same wickedness that they made back in 1Samuel 10, and 1Samuel 12:12, 12:17. That's the problem.

 

[Danoh]

Danoh,
my other book is the list of NT chapters I keep listing.

BW has said that a person has to believe that prophecy is exactly literal in fulfillment as he understands it. I'm glad he did not make salvation attached to it, because it is problem enough as is.

Lol - you mean what your 40 years in books have taught you to read into those "NT" chapters you keep listing... by the way, happy new year - as I don't mean any harm towards you; I'm just sounding off my share of our disagreement

 

[KrAZeD]

Therefore to continue doing them when Christ was the Passover Lamb/Scapegoat/Red Heifer etc is offensive!

To continue offering animal sacrifices is an attempt to worship God contrary to the New Covenant! Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED"! Do you not recall how strict God was in the sacrifcial worship of the OT? Consider Nadab and Abihu dying because they offer incense other than what God prescribed...or Uzziah getting struck with leprosy entering the temple to offer sacrifice when He was not of the priesthood. You can bet animal sacrifice is offensive!

isiah as well as matthew both iterated what main precepts, no truthful actions all ritual/habit, and going overboard (making offerings for anything they could conceive I.e moon/sun events). Your right we can offer money,prayers, and time.

Have any verses that point better to honest thanksgiving and peace offerings and not sin and habits, no disrespect I've searched and possibly missed them.

Jacob, noah, able seemed like an unwritten ritual that wasnt that bad but point noted.

While I can understand you just writing all offerings that first popped to mind-luke 22:16 does seem to give credence to our Lord eating something similar to what the old passover tradition contained as well as a continuation of at least a remembrance of "passover".

I understand the aspect of no death in heaven, though it really must have been an exceptional treat for Jesus to eat that last piece of broiled fish before his final ascension, an that beautiful cow God and his angels dined on while visiting abraham. Can't get that quality in Heaven I suppose, I'm joking to G honest I have no clue about meals in heaven just weird thoughts with a small verse here and their that makes one ponder the unknown of our future home.

 

[ebedmelech]

isiah as well as matthew both iterated what main precepts, no truthful actions all ritual/habit, and going overboard (making offerings for anything they could conceive I.e moon/sun events). Your right we can offer money,prayers, and time.

Have any verses that point better to honest thanksgiving and peace offerings and not sin and habits, no disrespect I've searched and possibly missed them.

Jacob, noah, able seemed like an unwritten ritual that wasnt that bad but point noted.

While I can understand you just writing all offerings that first popped to mind-luke 22:16 does seem to give credence to our Lord eating something similar to what the old passover tradition contained as well as a continuation of at least a remembrance of "passover".

I understand the aspect of no death in heaven, though it really must have been an exceptional treat for Jesus to eat that last piece of broiled fish before his final ascension, an that beautiful cow God and his angels dined on while visiting abraham. Can't get that quality in Heaven I suppose, I'm joking to G honest I have no clue about meals in heaven just weird thoughts with a small verse here and their that makes one ponder the unknown of our future home.

Not sure where you're going with this. However...let's FIRST point out that when it comes to the gospels, the Old Covenant is in full effect. Therefore the sacrifice that was offered when Jesus was born (for intance), as Luke is pointing out at Luke 2:39 is quite valid and in accrodance with the Law of God:
39 When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

Jesus PRONOUNCES the New Covenant prior to His crucifixion.

 

[riverrat]

Not sure where you're going with this. However...let's FIRST point out that when it comes to the gospels, the Old Covenant is in full effect. Therefore the sacrifice that was offered when Jesus was born (for intance), as Luke is pointing out at Luke 2:39 is quite valid and in accrodance with the Law of God:
39 When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

Jesus PRONOUNCES the New Covenant prior to His crucifixion.

He pronounced it but it is not in effect at this time. Its fulfillment is still in the future.

 

[ebedmelech]

He pronounced it but it is not in effect at this time. Its fulfillment is still in the future.

No. That would be error. This is what The gospels record...

Matthew 26:26-29
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Mark 14:22-25
22 While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is My body.”
23 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
25 Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Luke 22:14-20:
14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.
15 And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

This is NOT a future fulfillment. It was fulfilled when Jesus died, shedding His blood on the cross. How you could think otherwise is ammazing!

John the Baptist John 1:29:
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

If the New covenant is not in effect, your sins are NOT FORGIVEN! Jesus shed His blood, died, and was resurrected for sins to be forgiven!

1 Corinthians 15:16, 17
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

The New Covenant is not future...it's in effect now! What is future is His return and the resurrection to eternal life!

 

[riverrat]

Ebed:

The new covenant is for Israel and Judah as per Jer. 31:31-34. The body of Christ is not Israel and Judah. The new covenant clearly is not presently in effect for Israel and Judah. The members of the body of Christ receive forgiveness of sins by grace and not by a covenant as per Eph 1:7. The new covenant will become effective for Israel and Judah when Christ returns and sets up His earthly kingdom.

 

[BABerean2]

Ebed:

The new covenant is for Israel and Judah as per Jer. 31:31-34. The body of Christ is not Israel and Judah. The new covenant clearly is not presently in effect for Israel and Judah. The members of the body of Christ receive forgiveness of sins by grace and not by a covenant as per Eph 1:7. The new covenant will become effective for Israel and Judah when Christ returns and sets up His earthly kingdom.

There is one Plan, not two.



Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
(God does not judge by one’s DNA.)



Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)



Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(He took away the first covenant to establish the second.)


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)


Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world.")


.

 

[Jipsah]

He pronounced it but it is not in effect at this time. Its fulfillment is still in the future.

Zat mean we're still under the Law? Dang!

I'm finding that Futurism is far spookier than I ever imagined.

 

[riverrat]

Zat mean we're still under the Law? Dang!

I'm finding that Futurism is far spookier than I ever imagined.

Of course we are not living under the law. We are living under the dispensation of the grace of God.

 

[riverrat]

BaBerean2 wrote:

The New Covenant is in Effect for All, Now... Originally Posted by riverrat

Ebed:

The new covenant is for Israel and Judah as per Jer. 31:31-34. The body of Christ is not Israel and Judah. The new covenant clearly is not presently in effect for Israel and Judah. The members of the body of Christ receive forgiveness of sins by grace and not by a covenant as per Eph 1:7. The new covenant will become effective for Israel and Judah when Christ returns and sets up His earthly kingdom.
​

There is one Plan, not two.



Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
(God does not judge by one’s DNA.)



Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)



Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(He took away the first covenant to establish the second.)


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)


Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world.")

Nothing that you have written in blue conflicts with my post.

 

[Danoh]

Zat mean we're still under the Law? Dang!

I'm finding that Futurism is far spookier than I ever imagined.

Lol - you're confused - you're finding what you misunderstand we mean, which you then projected as being what we mean, is far spookier than you ever imagined.

Notice your own evidence as to this - in your question "Zat mean we're still under the law?"

And notice your own projection's resulting conclusion "Dang!"

And you're right - yours is spookier than you have thus far ever imagined.

And that right there is "a summary treatment" of Interplanner's, Rev20's, Random Person's, Ebedmelech's, BAB2's, and their lot's mode of processing the words of others, including those of Scripture