Critical Mass of Science Denial / Ignorance

[TLK Valentine]

And the witch of Endor?

Is that No True Scotsman as well?

There was no witch on Endor... only ewoks.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I admitted to two threads of mine being jokes:

1. The one about the Ark being a periscope.
2. The one about Nero blaming Christians for reversing the earth's axis.

Remember, professor?

And the rest you just haven't admitted yet... right?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you seriously believe in witches?

Yes.

 

[AV1611VET]

And the rest you just haven't admitted yet... right?

Well ... um ... remember I said I thought my single greatest challenge I ever made to scientists here was my Apple Challenge, which I said I thought God gave me in answer to a prayer about how I could demonstrate how the creation events occurred sans science, professor?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well ... um ... remember I said I thought my single greatest challenge I ever made to scientists here was my Apple Challenge, which I said I thought God gave me in answer to a prayer about how I could demonstrate how the creation events occurred sans science, professor?

One admission down... several thousand to go.

 

[RickG]

Then what's this?

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Here's why I have problems with literal translations of scripture, especially scripture written several thousand years ago by people who have little to no understanding of their physical environment and a context far different from ours today.

Translation and interpretation of Exodus 22:18

KJ21
“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
ASV
Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live.
AMP
“You shall not allow a woman who practices sorcery to live.
AMPC
You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
BRG
¶ Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
CEB
Don’t allow a female sorcerer to live.
CJB
“Whoever has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.
CEV
Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
DARBY
—Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
DRA
Wizards thou shalt not suffer to live.
ERV
“You must not allow any woman to do evil magic. If she does magic, you must not let her live.
ESV
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
ESVUK
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
EXB
“·Put to death any woman who does evil magic [L You shall not let a female sorceress live].
GNV
¶ Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
GW
“Never let a witch live.
GNT
“Put to death any woman who practices magic.
HCSB
“You must not allow a sorceress to live.
ICB
“Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
ISV
“You are not to allow a sorceress to live.
JUB
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
KJV
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
AKJV
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
LEB
“‘You will not let a witch live.
TLB
“A sorceress shall be put to death.
MSG
“Don’t let a sorceress live.
MEV
You must not allow a sorceress to live.
NOG
“Never let a witch live.
NABRE
Anyone who lies with an animal shall be put to death.
NASB
“You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
NCV
“Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
NET
“You must not allow a sorceress to live.
NIRV
“Do not let a woman who does evil magic stay alive. Put her to death.
NIV
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.
NIVUK
‘Do not allow a sorceress to live.
NKJV
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
NLV
“Do not allow a woman to live who does witchcraft.
NLT
“You must not allow a sorceress to live.
NRSV
You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
NRSVA
You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
NRSVACE
You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
NRSVCE
You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
OJB
Thou shalt not allow a mekhashefah (witch, sorceress) to live.
RSV
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
RSVCE
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
TLV
“Anyone who lies with an animal must surely be put to death.
VOICE
You are not to allow a sorceress to live.
WEB
“You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
WYC
Thou shalt not suffer witches to live.
YLT
`A witch thou dost not keep alive.

 

[AV1611VET]

Translation and interpretation of Exodus 22:18

Now you know why I'm KJVO.

Hopefully.

Incidentally, Rick, in all those translations you showed, doesn't the scientific method dictate that you use consensus of opinion?

So shouldn't you just go down the list and pick the one that is mentioned the most and use it?

<staff edit>

 

[RickG]

Now you know why I'm KJVO.

I prefer the KJVO as well but for different reasons. I like the style it was written in. However, I still have problems with the knowledge that context of the time the actual scripture was written, translated, and interpreted throughout history can and are quite different.

Incidentally, Rick, in all those translations you showed, doesn't the scientific method dictate that you use consensus of opinion?

No, the scientific method does not use consensus. If it did science would be stagnant. Consensus is based on what the majority of what the empirical evidence shows, not opinion or method. The scientific method is a process, consensus is an understanding.

 

[expos4ever]

Well, with that kind of logic, scientologists for one would be well below their "critical mass". What keeps them together is their own subculture.

I don't think what I posted implied that there had to be a "critical mass" of believers in a bad idea before that idea became very hard to purge. I agree that very small groups of people can indeed hold to crazy ideas, if certain other conditions apply (e.g. they are isolated, poorly educated, etc.).

 

[AV1611VET]

I like the style it was written in.

That's like saying I suscribe to Scientific American because I like the pictures.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Perhaps if we whittle away enough people from the herd of the ignorant, the rest of the herd will dissipate (since it would then be effectively below the critical mass).

I'm afraid when it gets less popular, it just goes from being an unexamined cultural norm to being a cult. The numbers get fewer, but they tend to get more and more fervent. No one spent much effort on YEC a hundred years ago. Now there are several cult ministries built on it as a foundation.

 

[RickG]

That's like saying I suscribe to Scientific American because I like the pictures.

Nice quote mine. How about commenting on what I said about context? Also, would you mind sharing your reasons for preferring the KJVO?

 

[expos4ever]

Worshiping ignorance is not a new phenomenon, but the rise of television and the Internet has caused it to grow exponentially....

I expect you will agree that despite the initial promise that the Internet would facilitate a "marketplace of ideas" where the good ideas would prosper and the bad ones would be shown to be bad, it has, sadly, become a kind of "echo chamber" where people with screwball ideas can find and mutually re-enforce others who hold those same ideas. In short, the internet enables a kind of intellectual inbreeding.

There are exceptions, of course, such as, perhaps, this very forum. But even though we have people seemingly talking to each other here, I am skeptical: I suspect that, for example, the climate change deniers do not really engage the arguments against their position - they basically ignore them and are instead invigorated by the posts of fellow deniers.

 

[RickG]

There are exceptions, of course, such as, perhaps, this very forum. But even though we have people seemingly talking to each other here, I am skeptical: I suspect that, for example, the climate change deniers do not really engage the arguments against their position - they basically ignore them and are instead invigorated by the posts of fellow deniers.

Climate change deniers also utilize many of the creation science tactics as well; i.e., cherry picked data and Gish gallops.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nice quote mine.

I thought it was the only thing worth responding to.

How about commenting on what I said about context?

You said this:

"No, the scientific method does not use consensus. If it did science would be stagnant. Consensus is based on what the majority of what the empirical evidence shows, not opinion or method. The scientific method is a process, consensus is an understanding."

That sounds like double-talk to me.

Also, would you mind sharing your reasons for preferring the KJVO?

1. The KJB is almost word-for-word from Its Predecessors (Geneva, Bishop's, Wycliffe, Gothic).
2. The KJB and Its Predecessors are the only Ones that I know of that give us Satan's angelic name.
3. The KJB and Its Predecessors have been used by God-fearing men for almost two thousand years.
4. The KJB and Its Predecessors talk more about the deity of Christ than any other translation.
5. The KJB isn't copyrighted.
6. Other versions follow homosexuals Wescott & Hort.
7. The KJB is the easiest to understand, and comes with a built-in dictionary.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I expect you will agree that despite the initial promise that the Internet would facilitate a "marketplace of ideas" where the good ideas would prosper and the bad ones would be shown to be bad, it has, sadly, become a kind of "echo chamber" where people with screwball ideas can find and mutually re-enforce others who hold those same ideas. In short, the internet enables a kind of intellectual inbreeding.

I disagree that that was ever the initial promise...(and if it was, people really should've known better...) That the internet would facilitate a "marketplace of ideas" was never in doubt, but that free-market economics would somehow be the model for people's most deeply held beliefs, prejudices, superstitions, and delusions is just plain wishful thinking.

As I've said before... give an idiot a soapbox, and eventually, bigger idiots will come along and listen. What is the Internet if not a global soapbox?

 

[VirOptimus]

I-snip-
7. The KJB is the easiest to understand, and comes with a built-in dictionary.

What if you dont speak english at all? Or very well?

 

[Michael]

I don't think what I posted implied that there had to be a "critical mass" of believers in a bad idea before that idea became very hard to purge. I agree that very small groups of people can indeed hold to crazy ideas, if certain other conditions apply (e.g. they are isolated, poorly educated, etc.).

I'd add "financially dependent on the belief" to the "etc" part of those other conditions that you're describing. Money seems to be a strong motivator for some folks, albeit rarely as it relates to YEC.

 

[JackRT]

On women going forward:


To the woman he said,


“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.


It was a genetic consequence of the sin.

BUT ---it was not a curse. It was a metaphorical/mythological explanation for a whole raft of things including pain in childbirth.

 

[Tree of Life]

Like many others here, I suspect, I am disturbed by the evidence of relatively widespread ignorance of Scripture as well as, perhaps more sinisterly, the outright distrust of the findings of Scriptural studies. In this regard, I wonder about a "critical mass" effect - if enough people believe enough wacky things, they need no longer feel ashamed of their views and, yes, may even revel in their ignorance and off-kilter thinking. In short, if enough people believe wonky stuff, there is an illusion of "power in numbers": we can't all be wrong in thinking that life can be lived without reference to God, or that Scripture can be violated with impunity - you name it.

Perhaps if we whittle away enough people from the herd of the ignorant, the rest of the herd will dissipate (since it would then be effectively below the critical mass).