Does mass Martyrdom begin during the great falling away

Logicalpaladin

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I have the theory that the fifth seal marks the beginning of the great tribulation at the time of the Abomination of Desolation and that martyrdom of the saints actually starts before that, when the church turns on itself. We know that the great tribulation marks the time of the greatest intensity of martyrdom for the church, and it also contains the worst time of death and suffering the world ever has or will see. I want to start with why I think the Abomination of Desolation starts at the fifth seal.

Rev 6:1When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underthe altar the souls of those who had been slainbecause of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,were killed just as they had been.

God sets a limit on the number of martyrs. I think it’s pretty clear that the thing that triggers the rapture is when the final martyr is killed according to Gods secret council. It’s not a time based revelation. That’s why no man can know the date or the hour.

God says the saints will be handed over to Satan and his angels for a time, times and half a time. Here are some passages that back that up

Daniel 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus……13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Now we’ve established, I hope, the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation start with the fifth seal and end when Gods allowed number of martyrs are killed, we should remember the question the martyrs asked in the fifth seal…”They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?””

They are answered directly. The answer is found at the end of the two witnesses’ 1260 day testimony. At the final trumpet.

Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them (the two witnesses), and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The cry of the martyrs for vengeance from the Lord is answered at the seventh trumpet. Now we all know what else happens at the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the deadwill be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Doesn’t that fit together perfectly? I think it does. And it in no way tells us the day Jesus will return.

Another key thing to me is how we are told there will be a great falling away before Jesus returns. People will leave the faith in droves.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

It almost sounds like the martyrdom starts at the same time as the Abomination of Desolation. Because the scriptures are clear that we will be handed over to Satan for 3 1/2 years. Bit what those passages don’t say is that will be when mass martyrdom starts.
In case it wasn’t clear enough, Paul says this

2 Thess 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Jesus gives us the same order in the Olivet discourse.

Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives,the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

He says the falling away happens after the beginning of birth pains. The very next thing after the signs that correlate with the four horseman is the handing over of Christians to be killed. We know we will be handed over to Satan at the Abomination of Desolation. But we also know that the falling away comes first. Jesus says the falling away happens “at that time”. That can only mean the time we are handed over to be persecuted and killed.

I believe this shows people will fall away after the seven years starts but before the abomination of desolation. The point is that they don’t recognize that the final seven year agreement was passed and that the final seven years has started. That tells that the agreement is not what they were expecting it to be. How else do you explain a great falling away after the confirmation of the covenant?

So who is it that hands us over to be persecuted and killed before the Abomination of Desolation?

Luke 21 has a differently worded account of the same time.

8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

This account definitely places the persecution and martyrdom before the Abomination of Desolation, which is foretold starting in verse 20. It is also quite clear who hands us over. Our loved ones. Our fellow church members. Since the covenant would have already been confirmed, these people who hand us over, by and large, are those that don’t recognize the final seven years has started. Some may have recognized it and are selling out others to protect themselves. They fear death and persecution. Bu t with the rise of false prophets from the get go, we who know what’s happening and maintain our testimony will be labeled as false prophets. I really really hate to say this, hate it from the bottom of my heart, but the majority of the people who hand us over will be pre-trib. They won’t believe that the seven years has started and the covenant has been confirmed because they are dead set on the rapture taking them away when that happens. I also believe that many who are pre-trib will convert to post trib at that time. Those of us who are “wise” will be telling everyone what is happening. It’s the reason we are being handed over. Nowhere is this idea more succinctly stated than by Gabriel in the book of Daniel.

Daniel 11:33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

That’s powerful. This whole thing is a new revelation for me. I had suspicions that this might be true but, for whatever reason, Injad not sat down and looked it over. It came out roaring IMO.

One more thing that I think has been almost completely overlooked. This is a theory and I fully admit that it could be wrong in aspects or even in totality. I would not say that about the first part of this commentary. That part is rock solid. I am not a prophet. God may call me to that position at some point, only he knows, but he has not thus far. I will serve him with all of my heart either way. I do eagerly desire the greater gifts, but I will not claim what has not been given to me. Eagerly seek, yes. Claim without a move of the spirit within me, no. Back to my final point. It is what I call the mystery of the testimony of Jesus and it is presented in Rev 20, among others. We will start here.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I believe that’s two different groups who are martyred. It says there were “those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus“. Then it continues and says “and those who” had not received the Mark of the Beast. It continues with “and they” speaking of both groups together and their common outcome. What’s the difference, you might ask. This is a little harder to explain. I also need to point out that this presentation of two groups is not consistent in every translation. Some are stronger in their language that it is two groups while others clearly read that it should be all one group. There is something in the original text that implies two groups but doesn’t do it strongly enough for all translators to accept it. I hope to have enough evidence to back up the translations that show two groups. I think the difference in the groups is shown in the reason they were killed. Clearly both groups did not take the Mark of the Beast because anyone that does, his place is in the lake of fire. But the first group are not beheaded for that reason. They were beheaded for maintaining their testimony of Jesus. The testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19: 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

So the first group was beheaded because they held to the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy. They are the wise who understand in Daniel 11, which we already saw, and again in Daniel 12.

Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” 8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?” 9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand

I believe the first group in Rev 20 is those who have understood the prophecies in Daniel about the timing of the events and the totality of the prophetic narrative that Jesus gives us. That totality is the spirit of prophecy.

The second group did not understand the prophetic narrative of Jesus ahead of time but they were able to recognize the abomination for what it is and they woke up and subsequently refused the Mark of the Beast. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse,that after the abomination there will be all kinds of false prophets and false messiahs who would even deceive the elect if it were possible. That means that even after the abomination of desolation occurs, some elect people still won’t know what is happening. If they did, they wouldn’t be deceived. They would know that there was 3 1/2 years left until Jesus returns and they just need to stick with him. Satans deceptive plan is so well conceived that many of the elect will buy it. They may see it as a way out of the horrible mess the world is in. Everyone just needs to get on the same team and save the Earth, or some such thing. The second group in Rev 20 figures it out when they see the abomination. They are not killed for maintaining the spirit of prophecy. They are killed for refusing the mark. So God honors that dedication to him, in spite of their lengthy failings and even persecution of their brothers, by telling us about it as they are presented before the throne back in Revelation 20. The grace and mercy of God knows no bounds. No matter what you’ve done, it’s not over til it’s over.
 

Ed Parenteau

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I have the theory that the fifth seal marks the beginning of the great tribulation at the time of the Abomination of Desolation and that martyrdom of the saints actually starts before that, when the church turns on itself. We know that the great tribulation marks the time of the greatest intensity of martyrdom for the church, and it also contains the worst time of death and suffering the world ever has or will see. I want to start with why I think the Abomination of Desolation starts at the fifth seal.

Rev 6:1When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underthe altar the souls of those who had been slainbecause of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,were killed just as they had been.

God sets a limit on the number of martyrs. I think it’s pretty clear that the thing that triggers the rapture is when the final martyr is killed according to Gods secret council. It’s not a time based revelation. That’s why no man can know the date or the hour.

God says the saints will be handed over to Satan and his angels for a time, times and half a time. Here are some passages that back that up

Daniel 7:24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus……13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Now we’ve established, I hope, the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation start with the fifth seal and end when Gods allowed number of martyrs are killed, we should remember the question the martyrs asked in the fifth seal…”They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?””

They are answered directly. The answer is found at the end of the two witnesses’ 1260 day testimony. At the final trumpet.

Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them (the two witnesses), and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The cry of the martyrs for vengeance from the Lord is answered at the seventh trumpet. Now we all know what else happens at the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the deadwill be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Doesn’t that fit together perfectly? I think it does. And it in no way tells us the day Jesus will return.

Another key thing to me is how we are told there will be a great falling away before Jesus returns. People will leave the faith in droves.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

It almost sounds like the martyrdom starts at the same time as the Abomination of Desolation. Because the scriptures are clear that we will be handed over to Satan for 3 1/2 years. Bit what those passages don’t say is that will be when mass martyrdom starts.
In case it wasn’t clear enough, Paul says this

2 Thess 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Jesus gives us the same order in the Olivet discourse.

Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives,the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

He says the falling away happens after the beginning of birth pains. The very next thing after the signs that correlate with the four horseman is the handing over of Christians to be killed. We know we will be handed over to Satan at the Abomination of Desolation. But we also know that the falling away comes first. Jesus says the falling away happens “at that time”. That can only mean the time we are handed over to be persecuted and killed.

I believe this shows people will fall away after the seven years starts but before the abomination of desolation. The point is that they don’t recognize that the final seven year agreement was passed and that the final seven years has started. That tells that the agreement is not what they were expecting it to be. How else do you explain a great falling away after the confirmation of the covenant?

So who is it that hands us over to be persecuted and killed before the Abomination of Desolation?

Luke 21 has a differently worded account of the same time.

8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

This account definitely places the persecution and martyrdom before the Abomination of Desolation, which is foretold starting in verse 20. It is also quite clear who hands us over. Our loved ones. Our fellow church members. Since the covenant would have already been confirmed, these people who hand us over, by and large, are those that don’t recognize the final seven years has started. Some may have recognized it and are selling out others to protect themselves. They fear death and persecution. Bu t with the rise of false prophets from the get go, we who know what’s happening and maintain our testimony will be labeled as false prophets. I really really hate to say this, hate it from the bottom of my heart, but the majority of the people who hand us over will be pre-trib. They won’t believe that the seven years has started and the covenant has been confirmed because they are dead set on the rapture taking them away when that happens. I also believe that many who are pre-trib will convert to post trib at that time. Those of us who are “wise” will be telling everyone what is happening. It’s the reason we are being handed over. Nowhere is this idea more succinctly stated than by Gabriel in the book of Daniel.

Daniel 11:33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

That’s powerful. This whole thing is a new revelation for me. I had suspicions that this might be true but, for whatever reason, Injad not sat down and looked it over. It came out roaring IMO.

One more thing that I think has been almost completely overlooked. This is a theory and I fully admit that it could be wrong in aspects or even in totality. I would not say that about the first part of this commentary. That part is rock solid. I am not a prophet. God may call me to that position at some point, only he knows, but he has not thus far. I will serve him with all of my heart either way. I do eagerly desire the greater gifts, but I will not claim what has not been given to me. Eagerly seek, yes. Claim without a move of the spirit within me, no. Back to my final point. It is what I call the mystery of the testimony of Jesus and it is presented in Rev 20, among others. We will start here.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I believe that’s two different groups who are martyred. It says there were “those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus“. Then it continues and says “and those who” had not received the Mark of the Beast. It continues with “and they” speaking of both groups together and their common outcome. What’s the difference, you might ask. This is a little harder to explain. I also need to point out that this presentation of two groups is not consistent in every translation. Some are stronger in their language that it is two groups while others clearly read that it should be all one group. There is something in the original text that implies two groups but doesn’t do it strongly enough for all translators to accept it. I hope to have enough evidence to back up the translations that show two groups. I think the difference in the groups is shown in the reason they were killed. Clearly both groups did not take the Mark of the Beast because anyone that does, his place is in the lake of fire. But the first group are not beheaded for that reason. They were beheaded for maintaining their testimony of Jesus. The testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19: 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

So the first group was beheaded because they held to the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy. They are the wise who understand in Daniel 11, which we already saw, and again in Daniel 12.

Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” 8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?” 9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand

I believe the first group in Rev 20 is those who have understood the prophecies in Daniel about the timing of the events and the totality of the prophetic narrative that Jesus gives us. That totality is the spirit of prophecy.

The second group did not understand the prophetic narrative of Jesus ahead of time but they were able to recognize the abomination for what it is and they woke up and subsequently refused the Mark of the Beast. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse,that after the abomination there will be all kinds of false prophets and false messiahs who would even deceive the elect if it were possible. That means that even after the abomination of desolation occurs, some elect people still won’t know what is happening. If they did, they wouldn’t be deceived. They would know that there was 3 1/2 years left until Jesus returns and they just need to stick with him. Satans deceptive plan is so well conceived that many of the elect will buy it. They may see it as a way out of the horrible mess the world is in. Everyone just needs to get on the same team and save the Earth, or some such thing. The second group in Rev 20 figures it out when they see the abomination. They are not killed for maintaining the spirit of prophecy. They are killed for refusing the mark. So God honors that dedication to him, in spite of their lengthy failings and even persecution of their brothers, by telling us about it as they are presented before the throne back in Revelation 20. The grace and mercy of God knows no bounds. No matter what you’ve done, it’s not over til it’s over.
Here are some scriptures that you need to reconcile with your understanding.
Deuteronomy 29:
29The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law.
God then reveals more and more throughout scripture when we come to
Amos 3:
7“For the Lord GOD does nothing
without revealing his secret
to his servants the prophets.
8The lion has roared;
who will not fear?
The Lord GOD has spoken;
who can but prophesy?”

So, is the coming of the Lord a secret, or did He reveal when it would take place to the Apostles?
 
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Logicalpaladin

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Here are some scriptures that you need to reconcile with your understanding.
Deuteronomy 29:
29The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law.
God then reveals more and more throughout scripture when we come to
Amos 3:
7“For the Lord GOD does nothing
without revealing his secret
to his servants the prophets.
8The lion has roared;
who will not fear?
The Lord GOD has spoken;
who can but prophesy?”

So, is the coming of the Lord a secret, or did He reveal when it would take place to the Apostles?
I assume you mean the apostles in the gospels. I think they knew of the seventy sevens. What it meant. What they didn’t know was when the clock would start again. They had to wait for a decree that matched the prophecy. Once the decree comes, the hidden things are revealed. Not the day or hour of the coming of Jesus. But the day of the confirmation of the covenant has been revealed. It has been able to be known by anyone who can apply the scriptures correctly ever since the decree was issued. 7x7 warning. A perfect amount of time. The prophetic narrative of Jesus includes the seventy sevens because he pointed us to them and said “let the reader understand”. You can see all of what I have to say about that at theseventysevensofdaniel.com

Really good points by the way. I appreciate that feedback and welcome all challenges, corrections and critiques. My interpretation of the seventy sevens was sealed into my forehead by the Lord. That cannot be changed. Everything else is up to us/me to figure out. I don’t doubt that there is more to this in scripture than what I have found. But what I have found so far does precisely with the plans of the components of the beast have revealed. The beast has not formed yet, obviously. It only rules for 1260 days
 
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Logicalpaladin

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Sorry. I was trying to fix that last part and posted by mistake. I was trying to say that what I have found so far precisely matches the plans that the components of the beast have revealed. I consider the components at this time to be the likes of the United Nations, the pope, and business leaders like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos. Throw in there the world economic forum, Klaus Schwab and George Soros. I’m sure there are more. The nations conspire together against the nation of Israel and the true church of God.
 
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RandyPNW

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I have the theory that the fifth seal marks the beginning of the great tribulation at the time of the Abomination of Desolation and that martyrdom of the saints actually starts before that, when the church turns on itself. We know that the great tribulation marks the time of the greatest intensity of martyrdom for the church, and it also contains the worst time of death and suffering the world ever has or will see. I want to start with why I think the Abomination of Desolation starts at the fifth seal.
It's too many issues to deal with for me here, in one place. So let me just address this one issue: Does the 5th Seal mark the beginning of the Great Tribulation at the time of the Abomination of Desolation?

My theory is that the 7 Seals represent the entire NT age between the 2 Comings of Christ. Christ died to unlock the history that will lead to our redemption. So all of this history is important to lead to our Salvation.

All 7 Seals are critical in bringing us to the point of Christ's Return to judge the earth. The world persecutes Christians throughout the NT age. At various times and in various places, Christian ministers are martyred throughout the NT age. It doesn't just start at the Reign of Antichrist.

As for how we should define the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation, that is another matter. These are often explained to represent the revelation of Antichrist and his reign of 3.5 or 7 years. In reality, Dan 7 teaches that Antichrist, the "Little Horn," will reign only 3.5 years, and will indeed persecute the saints during this time. But I think the "Great Tribulation and the AoD" are defined very differently from this.

The AoD was the Roman Army that desolated Jerusalem in 70 AD, which led to an entire age of Jewish punishment. Jesus called this, unmistakabley, the "Great Tribulation," or the "Great Distress." It is a punishment upon the Jewish People for failing under the Law, for rejecting God and His Messiah, and for persecuting God's People. It is also a time when the saints suffer from not just Jewish unbelievers but unbelievers everywhere who choose paganism over Christianity.

Dispensationalism tends to be dominant in many American bookstores, and I expect a lot of resistance to my views here in the US. But I can't deny what Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse. And it's also, incidentally, what the early Church Fathers believed, with few exception.

So I see the 4 Horsemen riding to bring punishment upon the world as it rejects the Gospel and persecutes God's People. They suffer conquest, distress, and various human and natural disasters. In the meantime, as God's People are persecuted, the world draws near to Christ's Coming, who will deliver us and give us a Kingdom.
 
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