Credo or Paedo?

[Clare73]

An automobile is a real thing, that it isn't mentioned in the Bible is a non-issue. Which is what Mark's point was in his post.

The word "Sacrament" refers to real things, and refers to real biblical things. So its absence from explicit biblical terminology is, like automobile or Trinity, a non-issue.

Contraire. . .it is the heart of the matter.

The word "automobile" like the word "sacrament" is not only not found in the Bible, neither meaning is found in the Bible, while the words "Trinity" and "sovereignty" also not being found in the Bible, their meaning is clearly presented there.

Man has no authority to add new concepts, such as "sacrament," to the Bible,
nor does man have authority to label such notion with the Biblical word "mystery,"
the meaning of which is not "incomprehensible," but rather "never before revealed," as in 1 Co 15:51, Eph 1:9, Eph 3:3-7, Col 1:26-27, etc.

Trying to stick to the "automobile" example which Mark gave, rather than what his actual point was in using it, is simply a red herring.

I'd say it is less red herring than it is heresy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'd say it is less red herring than it is heresy.

Then I guess this conversation is over. Go in peace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[concretecamper]

while the words "Trinity" and "sovereignty" also not being found in the Bible, their meaning is clearly presented there.

This is so false. If it were so clear, Arius, Nestorius, and all the people who call themselves Christians who refuse to call Mary Mother of God wouldn't be turned sideways and upsidedown with the thought of Mary having such a title.

 

[concretecamper]

The word "automobile" like the word "sacrament" is not only not found in the Bible,

Looking for a Latin word in a NT written in Greek


Haven't made it entirely through your Greek Lexicon yet?

Hint: Mysterion

 

[Clare73]

Looking for a Latin word in a NT written in Greek
Haven't made it entirely through your Greek Lexicon yet?
Hint: Mysteron

Looking for an English word translated from the language of the NT (Greek). . .and "sacrament" is not one.
Looking for an English text translated from the language of the NT (Greek). . .and "sacrament is mystery" is not one.

And if it is not in the NT Greek, then it is not the NT word of God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The English word "sacrament" is a transliteration of the Latin word "sacramentum", "a sacred pledge" or "a sacred thing". It translates the Greek word mysterion, which refers to a revealed sacred reality.

If someone looks at Christians eating bread and drinking wine when they gather together, it isn't obvious that this is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. And yet, Christ tells us exactly what this bread and wine is, it's His flesh and blood. That is the Mystery of the Lord's Supper, aka the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. In like way, simply seeing a person have water applied to them it isn't obvious what is going on apart from what is revealed about what it means: God washing our sins away (Acts 2:38) because here in/with the water is God's word, God's promises, because the one who is baptized is buried with Christ, and raised up with Christ.

It is a Sacrament, a Mystery, because these are spiritual truths that can only be received through faith. Just as St. Paul says, that the soulish person does not understand the things of God, because the things of God are spiritually discerned; apart from the power and work of the Holy Spirit to give and create faith, the things of God are simply strange and perhaps even meaningless. After all, we preach the message of the cross which is a stumbling block for the Jews and foolishness to the Greek; the Jews seek for a sign and the Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach the foolishness of Christ; and yet here in the foolishness of Christ is the power and wisdom of God, and so for we who are being saved Christ the power of God, the wisdom of God, the righteousness of God.

The term "Sacrament" is wholly fitting and applicable to these sacred things, these precious and revealed Means of Grace, which God has given through which God acts. God invades our lives by His grace through the sacramental, through God meeting us; rather than through our works, or our attempts to reach up to God. God reaches down, God comes down; we don't go up. God always comes down.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[concretecamper]

Looking for an English word translated from the language of the NT (Greek). . .and "sacrament" is not one.
Looking for an English text translated from the language of the NT (Greek). . .and "sacrament is mystery" is not one.

And if it is not in the NT Greek, then it is not the NT word of God.

Looks like someone needs to brush up on Jerome and his translating of scripture.

 

[Clare73]

The English word "sacrament" is a transliteration of the Latin word "sacramentum",

What is the Greek word that is translated "sacramentum" in the Latin, and where is it found in the NT?

 

[Clare73]

Looks like someone needs to brush up on Jerome and his translating of scripture.

Jerome is not the author of Latin,
and has no authority to change the Greek musterion from its Latin translation mysterium to the Latain sacramentum.

The sacraments are nowhere presented as mysteries in the NT, where "mystery" does not mean "imcomprehensable," it means "secret," never before revealed (Ro 16:25; 1 Co 2:7, 1 Co 4:1, Col:1:26-27), as in
death of Christ, as secret wisdom (1 Co 2:1-2, Eph 6:19, Col 2:2-3, 4:3),
God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-4:9),
the church as the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
power of lawlessness at work (2 Th 2:7),
truths of the faith (1Ti 3:9),
of godliness (1Ti 3:16), not a mystery of philosophy or speculation.

Jerome misappropriated "sacramentum" to "mysterium/musterion," which appropriation is nowhere found in the NT use of "musterion."

 

[concretecamper]

Irrelevant. . .

Only the Greek matters.

I would suggest you study Jerome since you are coming up short with the Greek

 

[Clare73]

I would suggest you study Jerome since you are coming up short with the Greek

Latin is no substitute for the Greek.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Latin is no substitute for the Greek.

So why are we even discussing this in English; I am sure it is a poor substitute for your greek also... but then it is your language of study, just as Greek and Latin (and a few others by various Fathers and Doctors of the Church, but then they should not count because it's not Greek or English.

This is how absurd your arguement is.

 

[Clare73]

So why are we even discussing this in English; I am sure it is a poor substitute for your greek also.

Does it really need to be explained that for accuracy and correctness, translations of the NT into all languages must be from the Greek?

.. but then it is your language of study, just as Greek and Latin (and a few others by various Fathers and Doctors of the Church, but then they should not count because it's not Greek or English.

Straw man. . .

It's not about "counting," its about my language of NT study being translated from the Greek.

This is how absurd your arguement is.

Are you sure about that?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does it really need to be explained that for accuracy and correctness, translations of the NT into all languages must be from the Greek?

Which my post earlier demonstrated where how the English word "sacrament", while transliterated from the Latin translation of a Greek word, is still from the Greek.

Your response was that Latin is irrelevant.

If Latin is irrelevant, and it's simply a middle-ground between Greek and English here; then English is surely also irrelevant (English isn't Greek).

It comes across as though you are trying to win an argument by straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Which my post earlier demonstrated where how the English word "sacrament", while transliterated from the Latin translation of a Greek word, is still from the Greek.

We're talking "translation," not "transliteration"--they are not the same, making your statement circular.

The English translation of the Greek musterion is "mystery," it is not "sacrament."

There is no word which translates "sacrament" in the NT Greek, which NT Greek is authoritative for NT doctrine.

Your response was that Latin is irrelevant.

If Latin is irrelevant, and it's simply a middle-ground between Greek and English here; then English is surely also irrelevant (English isn't Greek.

You don't see those two are not equivalent, because there is no middle ground there (English isn't Greek) between English and Greek....you don't understand that the middle-ground is the problem in accuracy and, therefore, without middle-ground, your parenthetical is irrelevant?

It comes across as though you are trying to win an argument by straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

Or is it not seeing the problem of "middle ground" that is swallowing the camel?

If you're referring to the translation of the Greek musterion, in the absence of the middle-ground Latin, where do we find it used in the NT of "sacrament" as a secret, newly revealed?

In light of John's baptism and the OT sacrificial meal on the dead sacrifice, baptism and the Lord's Supper would simply be anti-types.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Does it really need to be explained that for accuracy and correctness, translations of the NT into all languages must be from the Greek?

Straw man. . .

It's not about "counting," its about my language of NT study being translated from the Greek.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I am sure.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I am sure.

It, nevertheless, being demonstrated that it is not about Latin "counting" as a language of study, but about translation of the English from the Latin instead of straight from the Greek.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What is the Greek word that is translated "sacramentum" in the Latin, and where is it found in the NT?

The word is "mystery" - look its etymology up - and it is in many places in the new testament.

Eph 1:9 γνωρίσας ἡμῖν τὸ μυστήριον τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ κατὰ τὴν εὐδοκίαν αὐτοῦ, ἣν προέθετο ἐν αὐτῷ​

Eph 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo​

Eph 1:9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him,​

I wonder why you did not check these things for yourself before asking the question?

The sacraments are (in Greek) called the mysteries. In English we use both mystery and sacrament when speaking of the sacraments.

 

[Clare73]

The word is "mystery" - look its etymology up - and it is in many places in the new testament.

Eph 1:9 γνωρίσας ἡμῖν τὸ μυστήριον τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ κατὰ τὴν εὐδοκίαν αὐτοῦ, ἣν προέθετο ἐν αὐτῷ​

Eph 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo​

Eph 1:9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him,​

I wonder why you did not check these things for yourself before asking the question?

Are you sure about that?

The sacraments are (in Greek) called the mysteries. In English we use both mystery and sacrament when speaking of the sacraments.

Not quite. . .Greek musterion translates to English mystery.

Musterion does not translate "sacramentum" in Latin, it translates "mysterium," and in English it translates "mystery."

See post #89.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The word is "mystery" - look its etymology up - and it is in many places in the new testament.

Eph 1:9 γνωρίσας ἡμῖν τὸ μυστήριον τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ κατὰ τὴν εὐδοκίαν αὐτοῦ, ἣν προέθετο ἐν αὐτῷ​

Eph 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo​

Eph 1:9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him,​

I wonder why you did not check these things for yourself before asking the question?

The sacraments are (in Greek) called the mysteries. In English we use both mystery and sacrament when speaking of the sacraments.

Are you sure about that?

Not quite. . .Greek musterion translates to English mystery.

Musterion does not translate "sacramentum" in Latin, it translates "mysterium," and in English it translates "mystery."

See post #89.

In Ephesians 1:9 μυστήριον (Greek text) = sacramentum (Vulgate) = mystery (KJV)
What more need be said.