Credo or Paedo?

[Clare73]

When an unbeliever is baptized, they are no longer an unbeliever.

Salvation is conditioned on faith, "He who believes and is baptised will be saved." (Mk 16:16)
Not he who is baptized will believe and be saved.

Unless they make shipwreck of their faith and become unbelievers again. In the same way that when someone hears the Gospel and believes, they believe and are no longer an unbeliever--but if they abandon their faith by making shipwreck of it, they return to being an unbeliever. Which is why Scripture regularly warns against the dangers of apostasy.
But our God is a God of reckless and zealous love, our Lord Jesus Christ calls Himself the Good Shepherd who chases after the one lost little lamb to bring them back to the sheepfold.
Martin Luther called our Lord "Heaven's hound", because of His undying pursuit for us in His great love for us. His faithfulness is never ceasing.

Have you read Francis Thompson's Hound of Heaven?

 

[Clare73]

Absolutely, the word of God is living and active, and it does not return to Him void, but accomplishes what He purposes it for (Isaiah 55:11).

-CryptoLutheran

And that is conditioned on faith.
Baptizing an unbeliever does not save.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Salvation is conditioned on faith, "He who believes and is baptised will be saved." (Mk 16:16)
Not he who is baptized will believe and be saved.

And faith is the work and gift of God, which is by the power of God's word (Romans 10:17). So wherever God's word is, God is at work to give and create faith, that includes Baptism (Ephesians 5:26).

So, yes, baptism without faith would be meaningless. But also, baptism without faith is a contradiction.

Have you read Francis Thompson's Hound of Heaven?

I have not.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

And that is conditioned on faith.
Baptizing an unbeliever does not save.

Everyone is an unbeliever until they believe.

Let's come up with a crazy scenario, a very unlikely one. An atheist says, "Hi, I want to be baptized." They then proceed to just lie, they go through the whole ordinary process of catechism, and the whole time they've just been lying. Then the big day comes, and they are brought to the font and receive Baptism. But the whole time they don't believe.

Then afterward, they just leave and think to themselves, "Haha suckers, I sure fooled them." And lives their life as they always had, as an unbelieving atheist.

Are they saved? Of course not. And nobody would say they are.

That, however, doesn't mean that God failed, that His word failed.

So when we bring our children to the font to receive Baptism, we are confessing and saying, "Here, Lord, receive our children and be with them, and we too promise to teach them and instruct them in Your ways". We believe, therefore, on the basis of God's own word and promises, that our children indeed are believers, God has given them faith as He promises. Even as when an adult, hearing the Gospel preached, says, "I believe" and so we instruct them and bring them through catechism and to the font of baptism, where they receive this precious gift and work of God.

There's no difference. between the infant and the adult convert.

So what is the difference with the atheist who is lying? Well, they are at every step of the way resisting, rejecting, and dismissing God's grace.

Because, of course, grace is resistable. Which is why even believers can fall away and become apostate. OSAS isn't biblical, apostolic teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

And faith is the work and gift of God, which is by the power of God's word (Romans 10:17). So wherever God's word is, God is at work to give and create faith, that includes Baptism (Ephesians 5:26).
So, yes, baptism without faith would be meaningless. But also, baptism without faith is a contradiction.
I have not.

Oh, you just must!

 

[Clare73]

Everyone is an unbeliever until they believe.

Agreed. . .

Let's come up with a crazy scenario, a very unlikely one. An atheist says, "Hi, I want to be baptized." They then proceed to just lie, they go through the whole ordinary process of catechism, and the whole time they've just been lying. Then the big day comes, and they are brought to the font and receive Baptism. But the whole time they don't believe.
Then afterward, they just leave and think to themselves, "Haha suckers, I sure fooled them." And lives their life as they always had, as an unbelieving atheist.
Are they saved? Of course not. And nobody would say they are.
That, however, doesn't mean that God failed, that His word failed.

So when we bring our children to the font to receive Baptism, we are confessing and saying, "Here, Lord, receive our children and be with them, and we too promise to teach them and instruct them in Your ways". We believe, therefore, on the basis of God's own word and promises, that our children indeed are believers, God has given them faith as He promises.

Where is this promise of belief to our children?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Regarding the born again, the NT is in disagreement (e.g., 2 Co 1:22, 2 Co 5:5, Eph 1:14, Php 1:6, 1 Jn 3:2).

Your self assuradness tells me otherwise.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Agreed. . .

Where is this promise of belief to our children?

Acts 2:39

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Your self assuradness tells me otherwise.

Interesting measure of the veracity of 2 Co 1:22, 2 Co 5:5, Eph 1:14, Php 1:6, 1 Jn 3:2

in light of Jn 7:24.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Interesting measure of the veracity of 2 Co 1:22, 2 Co 5:5, Eph 1:14, Php 1:6, 1 Jn 3:2.

1st Peter 5:8-10 negates any inkling of OSAS. Peter is addressing the faithfu here; the devil could care less for the faithless, they are already his; rather the devel works in earnist tempt and lead the faithful away from God:

1 Peter 5:8​

King James Version​

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:​

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.​

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.​

​

We, yes, even you can fall away at any time if we are not watchful, faithful, and in a constant state of humble repentence.​

 

[Clare73]

Interesting measure of the veracity of 2 Co 1:22, 2 Co 5:5, Eph 1:14, Php 1:6, 1 Jn 3:2

in light of Jn 7:24.

1st Peter 5:8-10 negates any inkling of OSAS. Peter is addressing the faithfu here; the devil could care less for the faithless, they are already his; rather the devel works in earnist tempt and lead the faithful away from God:

1 Peter 5:8​

King James Version8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.​

We, yes, even you can fall away at any time if we are not watchful, faithful, and in a constant state of humble repentence.​

Setting Scripture against itself is not the way to understand it correctly.

Such warnings are God's means of preserving the born again, for the wheat heed the warnings, the tares not so much.

And back to Jn 7:24?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Setting Scripture against itself is not the way to understand it correctly.

Such warnings are God's means of preserving the born again, for the wheat heed the warnings, the tares not so much.

There's no need for the wheat to heed the warnings if the warnings don't apply to the wheat.

There's no reason for me to heed the warning that there is a cliff with a thousand foot vertical drop if it is impossible for me to fall off the edge. That would be like saying, "Warning, don't spontaneously float up against the force of gravity." You can't warn against the impossible, that would be nonsense.

The Holy Spirit is God's guarantee, ours is the assurance in Christ of eternal life and God's indelible promises. That assurance and guarantee only remains if we have faith. Apart from faith we are tossed to and fro by the wind and waves of sin and death, dashed against the rocks without the safety of the ship.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

There's no need for the wheat to heed the warnings if the warnings don't apply to the wheat.

It is not God who denies his keeping through use of second causes.

Those who don't heed the warnings are not wheat, just as those who don't believe are not born again.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Those who don't heed the warnings are not wheat.

Wheat that does not heed the warnings won't remain wheat, that is true. But this is also why the Church must preach the word, ministers are called to their sacred calling and vocation as bearers of the office of the keys, to preach the word in and out of season. Both Law and Gospel. For the Law is preached to repentance, and the Gospel to eternal life.

For God is here, through the Gospel, freely justifying us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Setting Scripture against itself is not the way to understand it correctly.

Stop doing it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is not God who denies his keeping through use of second causes.

Those who don't heed the warnings are not wheat, just as those who don't believe are not born again.

once wheat always wheat!

once born-again always born-again? really? It's absurd, right?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Acts 2:39

-CryptoLutheran

@Clare73 , you missed this one.

 

[Clare73]

Wheat that does not heed the warnings won't remain wheat, , that is true.

They were never wheat, they just looked like wheat.

Wheat does not become tares, just as sheep do not become goats.

once wheat always wheat!

once born-again always born-again? really? It's absurd, right?

Not on planet earth, it's divine law.

Sheep don't become goats, and wheat doesn't become tares, and vice versa.

 

[Clare73]

Acts 2:39

-CryptoLutheran

It's the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit, conditioned on repentance and baptism. . .which are the result of belief, not its cause.

Do not the Gentiles have the same promise; i.e., does not all mankind have that promise?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Not on planet earth, it's divine law.

Sheep don't become goats, and wheat doesn't become tares, and vice versa.

Conversion does not change a person? Is that what you believe? So no one who is a weed can ever convert, and no one who is wheat ever looks like or behaves like a weed? That does seem a little crazy.