Credo or Paedo?

[Clare73]

Conversion does not change a person? Is that what you believe? So no one who is a weed can ever convert, and no one who is wheat ever looks like or behaves like a weed? That does seem a little crazy.

It is the wheat (chosen) who convert and are changed (1Pe 1:2), not the tares.

It is the sheep (elect) who are sovereignly born again (Jn 3:3-8) believe and are changed, not the goats.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit, conditioned on repentance and baptism. . .which are the result of belief, not its cause.

Do not the Gentiles have the same promise; i.e., does not all mankind have that promise?

Faith is the gift of God which God works and creates through the word (Romans 10:17), the same word which is connected with water in Baptism (Ephesians 5:26).

God gives us faith through Word and Sacrament. God is always working, creating, and strengthening faith through Word and Sacrament. And so God is justifying us, freely, through faith which He gives us as pure gift.

God never stops giving us faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is the wheat (chosen) who convert and are changed (1Pe 1:2), not the tares.

It is the sheep (elect) who are sovereignly born again (Jn 3:3-8) believe and are changed, not the goats.

There are no sheep in John 3:3-8, no wheat in 1 Peter 1:2.

 

[Clare73]

Faith is the gift of God which God works and creates through the word (Romans 10:17), the same word which is connected with water in Baptism (Ephesians 5:26).

So that it could be the meaning of "water". . .

God gives us faith through Word and Sacrament. God is always working, creating, and strengthening faith through Word and Sacrament. And so God is justifying us, freely, through faith which He gives us as pure gift.

God never stops giving us faith.

Which is the growth of the saving faith given by God at the sovereign rebirth (born from above).

 

[ViaCrucis]

So that it could be the meaning of "water". . .

The water is water, the word is the word. Water with the word is baptism, because therein God connects His word to the water, making baptism more than just getting wet. As St. Peter says, baptism is not the cleaning of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a new conscience before God by the power of Christ's resurrection (1 Peter 3:21), which is why "this baptism which now saves you". Without the word of God in baptism, it wouldn't be baptism.

Which is the growth of the saving faith given by God at the sovereign rebirth (born from above).

We are beggars with nothing to offer God, and thus are always receiving by His goodness and love. Passive recipients of His righteousness and goodness and love. So He is giving us faith, day by day. Working faith, creating faith in us, and freely imputing to us the righteousness of Christ. That is our justification before God. From the moment God began His good work, until the Day of Christ Jesus, God is always at work, always giving us faith, always justifying us, always declaring to us the forgiveness of our sins on Christ's account, declaring us righteous on Christ's account. And that makes us new people, it makes us His children. God does it all, daily, continually. And so we are always children receiving the good gifts that are from above, from the "Father of lights". For He is our good and loving Father, and we--being in Christ by God's grace, having the Holy Spirit indwelling us and making us holy--are the heirs of God's grace, adopted and alive by God's grace day-by-day. Alive by the Holy Spirit rather than dead in our sins and trespasses.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

The water is water, the word is the word. Water with the word is baptism,

What Biblical word with the water?

because therein God connects His word to the water, making baptism more than just getting wet. As St. Peter says, baptism is not the cleaning of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a new conscience before God by the power of Christ's resurrection (1 Peter 3:21), which is why "this baptism which now saves you".

But you have set Peter against Paul, who teaches that salvation is through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8-9), such as baptism.

The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

When you consider the grammatical construction of Peter's context above in Noah and the ark,
baptism is a figure/symbol of the water which saved eight people in the ark, where the
flood is a figure of baptism, in that in both instances, the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism, the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4) is the water that saves; while
baptism is a figure of salvation, in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences.

"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."

"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life.

And now we have Peter and Paul in agreement in the truth of the matter, and not set against each other in untruth.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Stop doing it.

A most astute post my friend!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What Biblical word with the water?

But you have set Peter against Paul, who teaches that salvation is through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8-9), such as baptism.

The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

When you consider the grammatical construction of Peter's context above in Noah and the ark,
baptism is a figure/symbol of the water which saved eight people in the ark, where the
flood is a figure of baptism, in that in both instances, the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism, the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4) is the water that saves; while
baptism is a figure of salvation, in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences.

"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."

"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life.

And now we have Peter and Paul in agreement, which is the truth of the matter, and not set against each other in untruth.

The command to do so as clearly stated in the Bible ("Word" of God) is the word.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The command to do so as clearly stated in the Bible ("Word" of God) is the word

What is "go ye therefore, baptizing all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" if it is not a command to join the water with the word; the triune name of God??

The command is clear, as is the element of the word.

As Luther clearly explains in the small Catechism:

The Sacrament of Holy Baptism​

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.​

First.

What is Baptism?

–Answer: Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.

Which is that word of God?

–Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.



Secondly.

What does Baptism give or profit?

–Answer: It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

Which are such words and promises of God?

–Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Thirdly.

How can water do such great things?

–Answer: It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.



Fourthly.

What does such baptizing with water signify?

–Answer: It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

Where is this written?

–Answer: St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[Clare73]

What is "go ye therefore, baptizing all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" if it is not a command to join the water with the word; the triune name of God??

The issue is water baptism as salvation.

The command is clear, as is the element of the word.

As Luther clearly explains in the small Catechism:

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The issue is water baptism as salvation.

That is not the issue; baptism is an effective means of grace - a conduit through which God works according to God's will and good pleasure.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That is not the issue; baptism is an effective means of grace - a conduit through which God works according to God's will and good pleasure.

The darn issue is what ever Clare decides it is, from post to post.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What Biblical word with the water?

The holy and life-giving Gospel, the same word which the Apostle mentions in Romans 10:17. There is only one life-giving word that God speaks to us, and it's the Good News of Jesus Christ. The other word, that of the Law, does not give life, it does not save, but condemns us as sinners.

But you have set Peter against Paul, who teaches that salvation is through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8-9), such as baptism.

The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Oh, heaven forbid! I am not setting Scripture against Scripture, neither Peter against Paul, nor Paul against Paul. For Paul himself clearly teaches us that baptism saves, for he has written that all who are baptized are baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him by baptism, and raised together to new life with Christ (Romans 6:3-4).

Baptism isn't a work we do, baptism is the work of God.

When a preacher proclaims the Gospel and God works faith in the hearer, do you call that works? Or do you confess freely that God has worked through His own means? That a human being spoke the word doesn't change the fact that it is God's word; for here is the work of God: To give faith, to create faith, to forgive us all our sins, and impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I consider your claim to be a false charge. I am presenting the clear and unified witness of Holy Scripture: That God works through His own Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament.

When you consider the grammatical construction of Peter's context above in Noah and the ark,
baptism is a figure/symbol of the water which saved eight people in the ark, where the
flood is a figure of baptism, in that in both instances, the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism, the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4) is the water that saves; while
baptism is a figure of salvation, in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences.

"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."

"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life.

And now we have Peter and Paul in agreement in the truth of the matter, and not set against each other in untruth.

Grammatically the ark/flood are the symbol which prefigure baptism.

ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

"And the antitype of this* now saves us, even baptism, not the putting away of dirt from the flesh, but the answer of good conscience before God by Jesus Christ's resurrection"

*this being the ark which saved the eight souls through the water of the flood. It is the type, baptism the antitype. So that even as the ark, through water, saved the eight (Noah and his family), so now does baptism (which likewise is through water), now save us. Not as though it were merely like a bath which cleans dirt off the skin; rather it is the answer, the pledge, of a good conscience before God, toward God, on the basis, by the power of, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus.

If baptism were just water, then it would merely be a cleaning of dirty from the skin, like any other bath or shower. But it's not merely water, but water connected to and comprehended with God's word, as St. Paul has said in Ephesians 5:26. For this reason, this baptism now saves us; for all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), all who have been baptized have been buried with Christ, baptized into His death, and now been raised up, given new life, with Christ--alive with Him who rose from the dead (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13). So we have, as the Apostle says to Titus, been washed with the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, not by works we have done (Titus 3:5).

For it is by grace alone that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, but rather this is all from God, His precious gift--not by our works, our efforts, by anything we do or could do. So that none may boast except in the grace and love of God which He has freely showered upon us through the cross of our Lord Jesus. As the Apostle has written in Ephesians 2:8-9, and Galatians 6:14.

To God alone be all glory, thanksgiving, and praise. Now and forever.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The holy and life-giving Gospel, the same word which the Apostle mentions in Romans 10:17. There is only one life-giving word that God speaks to us, and it's the Good News of Jesus Christ. The other word, that of the Law, does not give life, it does not save, but condemns us as sinners.



Oh, heaven forbid! I am not setting Scripture against Scripture, neither Peter against Paul, nor Paul against Paul. For Paul himself clearly teaches us that baptism saves, for he has written that all who are baptized are baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him by baptism, and raised together to new life with Christ (Romans 6:3-4).

Baptism isn't a work we do, baptism is the work of God.

When a preacher proclaims the Gospel and God works faith in the hearer, do you call that works? Or do you confess freely that God has worked through His own means? That a human being spoke the word doesn't change the fact that it is God's word; for here is the work of God: To give faith, to create faith, to forgive us all our sins, and impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I consider your claim to be a false charge. I am presenting the clear and unified witness of Holy Scripture: That God works through His own Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament.



Grammatically the ark/flood are the symbol which prefigure baptism.

ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

"And the antitype of this* now saves us, even baptism, not the putting away of dirt from the flesh, but the answer of good conscience before God by Jesus Christ's resurrection"

*this being the ark which saved the eight souls through the water of the flood. It is the type, baptism the antitype. So that even as the ark, through water, saved the eight (Noah and his family), so now does baptism (which likewise is through water), now save us. Not as though it were merely like a bath which cleans dirt off the skin; rather it is the answer, the pledge, of a good conscience before God, toward God, on the basis, by the power of, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus.

If baptism were just water, then it would merely be a cleaning of dirty from the skin, like any other bath or shower. But it's not merely water, but water connected to and comprehended with God's word, as St. Paul has said in Ephesians 5:26. For this reason, this baptism now saves us; for all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), all who have been baptized have been buried with Christ, baptized into His death, and now been raised up, given new life, with Christ--alive with Him who rose from the dead (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13). So we have, as the Apostle says to Titus, been washed with the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, not by works we have done (Titus 3:5).

For it is by grace alone that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, but rather this is all from God, His precious gift--not by our works, our efforts, by anything we do or could do. So that none may boast except in the grace and love of God which He has freely showered upon us through the cross of our Lord Jesus. As the Apostle has written in Ephesians 2:8-9, and Galatians 6:14.

To God alone be all glory, thanksgiving, and praise. Now and forever.

-CryptoLutheran

Great Post; from an older form, while still essentially the same as the order in Lutheran Service Book, but I like the language better; the flood parayer and exorcisms: (WORKS OF MARTIN LUTHER - THE ORDER OF BAPTISM NEWLY REVISED)

The administrator says:

Depart thou unclean spirit, and give room to the Holy Spirit. Then he signs him/her with a cross on his forehead and breast, and says: Receive the sign of the holy cross both on thy forehead and breast.

<Snip>

Let us pray.
Almighty, Eternal God, Who, according to Thy righteous judgment, didst condemn the unbelieving world through the flood and, in Thy great mercy, didst preserve believing Noah and his family; and Who didst drown hardhearted Pharaoh with all his host in the Red Sea and didst lead Thy people Israel through the same on dry ground, thereby prefiguring this bath of Thy baptism; and Who through the baptism of Thy dear Child, our Lord Jesus Christ, hast consecrated and set apart the Jordan and all water as a salutary flood and a rich and full washing away of sins: We pray through the same Thy groundless mercy, that Thou wilt graciously behold this N. — and bless him/her with true faith in spirit, that by means of this saving flood all that has been born in him from Adam and which he himself has added thereto may be drowned in him/her and engulfed, and that he/she may be sundered from the number of the unbelieving, preserved dry and secure in the Holy Ark of Christendom, serve Thy Name at all times fervent in spirit and joyful in hope, so that with all believers he/she may be made worthy to attain eternal life according to Thy promise; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

I adjure thee, thou unclean spirit, by the Name of the Father and of the + Son and of the Holy Ghost that thou come out of and depart from this servant of Jesus Christ, N. — Amen.

 

[Clare73]

The holy and life-giving Gospel, the same word which the Apostle mentions in Romans 10:17. There is only one life-giving word that God speaks to us, and it's the Good News of Jesus Christ. The other word, that of the Law, does not give life, it does not save, but condemns us as sinners.
Oh, heaven forbid! I am not setting Scripture against Scripture, neither Peter against Paul, nor Paul against Paul. For Paul himself clearly teaches us that baptism saves, for he has written that all who are baptized are baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him by baptism, and raised together to new life with Christ (Romans 6:3-4).

Which presents the death of Christ as saving, not baptism as saving.
And that death of Christ likewise requires faith for it to be applied to you.
So it's faith in the death of Christ which saves, not the rite of baptism.

Baptism isn't a work we do, baptism is the work of God.

And likewise, it is a sovereign work of God (Jn 3:7-8), not effected or achieved by ceremonial rite.

When a preacher proclaims the Gospel and God works faith in the hearer, do you call that works?

Faith and believing are never works, they are opposed to works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:18).

Or do you confess freely that God has worked through His own means?

I confess that God works in accordance with his own word, and does not work contrary to it, which word presents regeneration as his sovereign act, as unaccountable as the wind, not circumscribed, effected or achieved by any ceremonial rite (Jn 3:7-8).

That a human being spoke the word doesn't change the fact that it is God's word;

Likewise, it "doesn't change the fact that it is God's word" in regeneration by sovereign, unaccountable action of God (Jn 3:3-8), neither effected nor achieved by ceremonial rite.

Baptism is a symbol of salvation and does not effect salvation.
What baptism effects is seen in its parallel in OT circumcision (Col 2:11-12), where it admits to the called-out assembly of God's people, where they enjoy his material provision and protection.

for here is the work of God: To give faith, to create faith, to forgive us all our sins, and impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

As the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent (Jn 6:29).

I consider your claim to be a false charge. I am presenting the clear and unified witness of Holy Scripture: That
God works through His own Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament.

Where do we find "sacrament" in the NT?
And where do we find "mysterion" in the Greek (where it is musterion), that I may examine these claims and translations also for Biblical veracity?

Grammatically the ark/flood are the symbol which prefigure baptism.
ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
"And the antitype of this* now saves us, even baptism, not the putting away of dirt from the flesh, but the answer of good conscience before God by Jesus Christ's resurrection"
*this being the ark which saved the eight souls through the water of the flood. It is the type, baptism the antitype.

The flood is a type of baptism, which in turn is a type of salvation (1 Pe 3:21).
Baptism is both anti-type and type: anti-type of the flood, and type of salvation.

So that even as the ark, through water, saved the eight (Noah and his family), so now does baptism (which likewise is through water), now save us. Not as though it were merely like a bath which cleans dirt off the skin; rather it is the answer, the pledge, of a good conscience before God, toward God, on the basis, by the power of, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus.

You missed the reason for flood water in the narrative (1 Pe 3:21-22), as a figure of judgment, death of the wicked for their sin, and death of Christ for our sin, and of which baptism water is also the figure of our death in Christ to sin, as Christ's death for sin (Ro 6:2-4).

If baptism were just water, then it would merely be a cleaning of dirty from the skin, like any other bath or shower. But it's not merely water,

It is precisely that, as a figure and not the reality itself, and which the Catholic church regards as "sacramental union."

but water connected to and comprehended with God's word, as St. Paul has said in Ephesians 5:26. For this reason, this baptism now saves us; for all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), all who have been baptized have been buried with Christ, baptized into His death, and now been raised up, given new life, with Christ--alive with Him who rose from the dead (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13). So we have, as the Apostle says to Titus, been washed with the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, not by works we have done (Titus 3:5).

Ti 3:5 reads - "not by works which we did in righteousness, but according to the mercy of him he saved us through washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

Which is the terminology of 1 Pe 3:21, addressed above and in post #66, where we are saved by what baptism symbolizes; i.e., Christ's death and resurrection.

In summary:
Salvation/justification is by faith alone, not by works of ceremonial rites (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28).
As the flood is a type of baptism, so baptism is a type of salvation (1Pe 3:21), it does not effect salvation.
NT baptism corresponds to OT circumcision (Col 2:11-12), admitting to the called-out assembly of God's people, enjoying its benefits.

For it is by grace alone that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, but rather this is all from God, His precious gift--not by our works, our efforts, by anything we do or could do. So that none may boast except in the grace and love of God which He has freely showered upon us through the cross of our Lord Jesus. As the Apostle has written in Ephesians 2:8-9, and Galatians 6:14.

To God alone be all glory, thanksgiving, and praise. Now and forever.

And all the saints said, "AMEN!"

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Which presents the death of Christ as saving, not baptism as saving.
And that death of Christ likewise requires faith for it to be applied to you.
So it's faith in the death of Christ which saves, not the rite of baptism.

And likewise, it is a sovereign work of God (Jn 3:7-8), not effected or achieved by ceremonial rite.

Faith and believing are never works, they are opposed to works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:18).

I confess that God works in accordance with his own word, and does not work contrary to it, which word presents regeneration as his sovereign act, as unaccountable as the wind, not circumscribed, effected or achieved by any ceremonial rite (Jn 3:7-8).

Likewise, it "doesn't change the fact that it is God's word" in regeneration by sovereign, unaccountable action of God (Jn 3:3-8), neither effected nor achieved by ceremonial rite.

As the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent (Jn 6:29).

Where do we find "sacrament" in the NT?
And where do we find "mysterion" in the Greek (where it is musterion), that I may examine these claims and translations also for Biblical veracity?

Baptism is both anti-type and type in 1 Pe 3:21:
anti-type of the flood, and
type of salvation.

You missed the reason for flood water in the narrative (1 Pe 3:21-22), as a figure of judgment, death of the wicked for their sin, and death of Christ for our sin, and of which baptism water is also the figure of our death in Christ to sin, as Christ's death for sin (Ro 6:2-4).

It is precisely that, as a figure and not the reality itself, and which the Catholic church regards as "sacramental union."

Ti 3:5 reads - "not by works which we did in righteousness, but according to the mercy of him he saved us through washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

Which is the terminology of 1 Pe 3:21, addressed above and in post #66, where we are saved by what baptism symbolizes; i.e., Christ's death and resurrection.

And all the saints said, "AMEN!"

It seems we have reached an impass.

You are right, the word "sacrament" is not in the Bible, neither is "automobile" yet we use both words to describe something, one a personal conveyance, the other what happens when God does something for mankind.

Harkening back some 49 or 50 years ago to our Lutheran Saturday School and our study of the Bible and the Catechism; there are two things that happen as a result of fatih (and in the Liturgy): There are Sacramentals and Sacrificials.

Sacrificals things that we do that proceed from our faith, Sacramentals are things that God does for us that give faith to us, that both strengthen and renew our faith. Sola Fide still applies; Sacraments do not supercede faith.

Some Churches define what a sacrament is in a more or less rigid definition; that is why Catholics and Anglicans have 7 while Lutherans have 2 (or 3, maybe 4 or 5; it defends on the tradition and their defining standard).

BTW, the term "Sacramental Uniion" is more of a Lutheran than a Catholic thing, as we impose a stricter definition on what constitutes a Sacrament.

Our definition is as follows:

1. It must be instituted by Christ himself.
2. There must be a physical element(s).
3. The word of God must be tied to the application of the elements.
4. It conveys the forgiveness of sins; not by what we do, but by what God does through these sacraments.

For example;:

Baptism was commanded by our Lord for "all nations" and was administered to "whole households"; no debate, it is in the Bible. The Physical element is Water; the Word tied to is is our Lord's command and "in the Name of the Father..." The Bible also informs is that it washese away our sins and "baptism now saves you".

Holy Communion, the Eucharist, the Mass, etc... lots of names, same sacrament. Commanded by our Lord; "do this" (plain speak there i'd say). It uses the Words of our Lord and bread and wine. It is done for the forgiveness of sins.

Grey areas...

Confession and Absolution; listed as a sacrament in the Augsburg Confession, but not in our other confessional doecuments; if not a "sacrament" in the strictest definition, it remains a Sacramental act: Instituted by Jesus Christ, and contain the promise of forgiveness of sins; "who so ever sins you forgive, they are forgiven, and who so ever sins you retain, they are retained. Physical Elements? The laying on of hands.

Holy Orders; the office of the Holy Ministry is commanded, and the purpose is to preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments; both impart faith, and... carry the promise of the forgiveness of sins. Again the laying on of hands.

Anointing of the Sick; while instituted after our Lord's ascention, it contains the promise of forgiveness, and healing (spiritual and physical) using the Word and Oil.

Bottom line; if it walks like a Duck, and talks like a Duck, it is a sacramental act (and maybe a sacrament by definition).

 

[Clare73]

It seems we have reached an impass.

You are right, the word "sacrament" is not in the Bible, neither is "automobile" yet we use both words to describe something,

Apples and oranges. . .

Got any doctrine using the word "automobile?"

one a personal conveyance, the other what happens when God does something for mankind.

Harkening back some 49 or 50 years ago to our Lutheran Saturday School and our study of the Bible and the Catechism; there are two things that happen as a result of fatih (and in the Liturgy): There are Sacramentals and Sacrificials.

Sacrificals things that we do that proceed from our faith, Sacramentals are things that God does for us that give faith to us, that both strengthen and renew our faith. Sola Fide still applies; Sacraments do not supercede faith.

Some Churches define what a sacrament is in a more or less rigid definition; that is why Catholics and Anglicans have 7 while Lutherans have 2 (or 3, maybe 4 or 5; it defends on the tradition and their defining standard).

BTW, the term "Sacramental Uniion" is more of a Lutheran than a Catholic thing, as we impose a stricter definition on what constitutes a Sacrament.

Our definition is as follows:

1. It must be instituted by Christ himself.
2. There must be a physical element(s).
3. The word of God must be tied to the application of the elements.
4. It conveys the forgiveness of sins; not by what we do, but by what God does through these sacraments.

For example;:

Baptism was commanded by our Lord for "all nations" and was administered to "whole households"; no debate, it is in the Bible. The Physical element is Water; the Word tied to is is our Lord's command and "in the Name of the Father..." The Bible also informs is that it washese away our sins and "baptism now saves you".

Holy Communion, the Eucharist, the Mass, etc... lots of names, same sacrament. Commanded by our Lord; "do this" (plain speak there i'd say). It uses the Words of our Lord and bread and wine. It is done for the forgiveness of sins.

Grey areas...

Confession and Absolution; listed as a sacrament in the Augsburg Confession, but not in our other confessional doecuments; if not a "sacrament" in the strictest definition, it remains a Sacramental act: Instituted by Jesus Christ, and contain the promise of forgiveness of sins; "who so ever sins you forgive, they are forgiven, and who so ever sins you retain, they are retained. Physical Elements? The laying on of hands.

Holy Orders; the office of the Holy Ministry is commanded, and the purpose is to preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments; both impart faith, and... carry the promise of the forgiveness of sins. Again the laying on of hands.

Anointing of the Sick; while instituted after our Lord's ascention, it contains the promise of forgiveness, and healing (spiritual and physical) using the Word and Oil.

Bottom line; if it walks like a Duck, and talks like a Duck, it is a sacramental act (and maybe a sacrament by definition).

Very informative. . .thanks.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Apples and oranges. . .

Got any doctrine using the word "automobile?"

Very informative. . .thanks.

Perhaps it would help to point out that the word "Trinity" isn't found anywhere in the Bible, but heaven help us if we deny the truth of what that word means.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps it would help to point out that the word "Trinity" isn't found anywhere in the Bible, but heaven help us if we deny the truth of what that word means.

Neither is the word "sovereign" itself, but like "Trinity," God's "sovereignty," is taught in the Bible.

Would be delighted for you to present where "automobile" is taught in the Bible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Neither is the word "sovereign" itself, but like "Trinity," God's "sovereignty," is taught in the Bible.

Would be delighted for you to present where "automobile" is taught in the Bible.

An automobile is a real thing, that it isn't mentioned in the Bible is a non-issue. Which is what Mark's point was in his post.

The word "Sacrament" refers to real things, and refers to real biblical things. So its absence from explicit biblical terminology is, like automobile or Trinity, a non-issue.

Trying to stick to the "automobile" example which Mark gave, rather than what his actual point was in using it, is simply a red herring.

-CryptoLutheran