Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

John A. Davison

Oh yeah.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Did your 8th-grade biology explain to you how DNA adaptive microevolution works? If so, please explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive microevolutionary step in the Kishony experiment. Please show your math, 8th-grade level probability theory will suffice.

Did fine in probablies, best in the sections relating to misuse. And no, that was not 8th grade.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

This is a really poor argument.

Your primary contention is that since the split of chimpanzees from humans there should only be about 5 adaptive mutations and that 99% of them should have occurred in the last 10,000 year.

Large-scale agriculture started about 10,000 years ago.
History of agriculture - Wikipedia

At that time, there would have been only about a billion humans that had lived. Language, mathematics, the physical laws then were rapidly developed, compared to the millions of years of claimed divergence of humans and chimps.

From this you then ask about the "5 magical mutations" that permitted "farming", "aircraft", "computers" when by your own calculations, those mutations would have occurred *after* we developed our mental capacites that differentiate us from chimpanzees.

Language, mathematics, understanding of the physical laws occurred worldwide, not in some single lineage.

You should have argued that by your calculations there should have approximately 0 adaptive mutations that allowed humans to develop their special characteristics that permitted our ancestors to expand rapidly in population with the development of agriculture.

I suspect that your "adaptive mutation" rate is garbage, but I leave it to those who know more about genetics to verify this.

None of the believers in macroevolution can explain the simplest adaptive microevolutionary experiments, the Kishony and Lenski experiments and neither can you.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

I could list them and summarize them, but that's already been done for me:

Lactase persistence - Wikipedia

[I await the mandatory complaint about citing wikipedia.]

So you are claiming that the loss of the ability to produce lactase is an example of adaptive evolution?

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Did fine in probablies, best in the sections relating to misuse. And no, that was not 8th grade.

So, when are you going to show us how to do the mathematics of adaptive DNA evolution?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Large-scale agriculture started about 10,000 years ago.
History of agriculture - Wikipedia

At that time, there would have been only about a billion humans that had lived. Language, mathematics, the physical laws then were rapidly developed, compared to the millions of years of claimed divergence of humans and chimps.

Do you think the human capacity for language has rapidly developed in the last 10,000 years, particularly relative to the prior few million years? (That's the way your post reads.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

So you are claiming that the loss of the ability to produce lactase is an example of adaptive evolution?

It's not the loss of lactase production ability. Sigh.

Lactase persistence is the continuance of lactase production past weaning.

Why would it not be adaptive? It permitted entirely new ways to obtain food by consuming the milk of other animals as adolescents and adults instead of just human milk during infancy.

(Are you discounting it because it is not present in the whole of the Earth's population?)

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Do you think the human capacity for language has rapidly developed in the last 10,000 years, particularly relative to the prior few million years? (That's the way your post reads.)

Chimpanzees certainly don't have a vast vocabulary. What mutations do Chimps need to increase their vocabulary?

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Large-scale agriculture started about 10,000 years ago.
History of agriculture - Wikipedia

At that time, there would have been only about a billion humans that had lived. Language, mathematics, the physical laws then were rapidly developed, compared to the millions of years of claimed divergence of humans and chimps.



Language, mathematics, understanding of the physical laws occurred worldwide, not in some single lineage.


None of the believers in macroevolution can explain the simplest adaptive microevolutionary experiments, the Kishony and Lenski experiments and neither can you.

Aren't we just speshull, only humans can use their brains to find new sources of food and teach others. blob:https://www.youtube.com/84e24942-24c1-4e1e-bea5-64ea9562c228 and if that one of a bird pushing a brick off of the lid, try this.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Find an experimental or empirical example that contradicts this math. Make sure you can identify the adaptive mutations, population sizes, and mutation rate. You won't find these examples.

Oh my! You just tacitly admitted that you only have an ad hoc explanation. That means you cannot claim to have any evidence for your beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Chimpanzees certainly don't have a vast vocabulary. What mutations do Chimps need to increase their vocabulary?

You are now trying to use an argument from ignorance. A logical fallacy does not help your case.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Chimpanzees certainly don't have a vast vocabulary. What mutations do Chimps need to increase their vocabulary?

What do our difference from chimps have to do with evolutionary development in that last 10,000 years?

When did our language abilities develop:
A) between the split from chimps and the development of agriculture, or
B) after the development of agriculture?

 

[Alan Kleinman]

It's not the loss of lactase production ability. Sigh.

Lactase persistence is the continuance of lactase production past weaning.

Why would it not be adaptive? It permitted entirely new ways to obtain food by consuming the milk of other animals as adolescents and adults instead of just human milk during infancy.

(Are you discounting it because it is not present in the whole of the Earth's population?)

Do you think that the inability to metabolize lactose increases reproductive fitness? I think you have this turned around. The lack of ability to produce lactase is due to a detrimental mutation. These variants can survive because there are other food sources available. For a mutation rate of 1e-9, you are going to have these variants appear in the population who don't have lactase persistence. And with six possible mutation sites and a population of a billion, you will have these variants that don't have lactase persistence.

So, why don't you tell us how adaptive evolution produced a lactase gene to start with? Please identify the selection condition and mutations required. Then you can identify the controlling genes that turn on and off the lactase gene and how they evolved.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

You are now trying to use an argument from ignorance. A logical fallacy does not help your case.

Do you speak chimpanzee? Perhaps they can explain to you how DNA adaptive microevolution works.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

What do our difference from chimps have to do with evolutionary development in that last 10,000 years?

When did our language abilities develop:
A) between the split from chimps and the development of agriculture, or
B) after the development of agriculture?

If you are going to argue that humans and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor, then some type of adaptive mutations must have occurred because humans have much greater reproductive fitness than chimps (7 billion humans today vs about 300,000 chimps). What gave humans the reproductive advantage over chimps. If you believe it is explained by genetics, what mutations give humans this marked reproductive advantage.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

So you are claiming that the loss of the ability to produce lactase is an example of adaptive evolution?

Well if you don't like that one, what are the five examples you find so valuable?

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

So, when are you going to show us how to do the mathematics of adaptive DNA evolution?

When are you, your basic argument was shot down 50 years ago.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Do you think that the inability to metabolize lactose increases reproductive fitness? I think you have this turned around. The lack of ability to produce lactase is due to a detrimental mutation. These variants can survive because there are other food sources available. For a mutation rate of 1e-9, you are going to have these variants appear in the population who don't have lactase persistence. And with six possible mutation sites and a population of a billion, you will have these variants that don't have lactase persistence.

No, I think the *ability* to metabolize lactose in adulthood is a potential improvement. It gives me access to more food sources, and did so for my ancestors for many generations. Did it allow them to survive to reproductive age better? Probably. One thing I do know about my ancestors is that all of them lived long enough to reproduce.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

If you are going to argue that humans and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor, then some type of adaptive mutations must have occurred because humans have much greater reproductive fitness than chimps (7 billion humans today vs about 300,000 chimps). What gave humans the reproductive advantage over chimps. If you believe it is explained by genetics, what mutations give humans this marked reproductive advantage.

Ask the bacteria, do you really think this is an argument?

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Do you think that the inability to metabolize lactose increases reproductive fitness? I think you have this turned around. The lack of ability to produce lactase is due to a detrimental mutation. These variants can survive because there are other food sources available. For a mutation rate of 1e-9, you are going to have these variants appear in the population who don't have lactase persistence. And with six possible mutation sites and a population of a billion, you will have these variants that don't have lactase persistence.

So, why don't you tell us how adaptive evolution produced a lactase gene to start with? Please identify the selection condition and mutations required. Then you can identify the controlling genes that turn on and off the lactase gene and how they evolved.

After you tell us how mammals developed the ability to produce lactose.
Seriously, this great chain of being, argument from ignorance is tiresome.