Creation Suggests Creation

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

My point is that what is holding them back are internal problems, not racism. I calculate 95% internal, 5% racism.

What do you mean by 'internal problems'?

It is a general consensus, based on actual evidence, that America has done pretty well in that regard.

I don't think the rest of the world would agree - or, indeed, a significant proportion of the US population...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

And for the most part this has been done. We're waiting for a positive response from the other side.

I don't think so; it's only relatively recently that it's become clear how pervasive the problem is. Seeing it in terms of 'sides' is just one example.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What do you mean by 'internal problems'?

Self-inflicted problems.

I don't think the rest of the world would agree - or, indeed, a significant proportion of the US population...

They've just gotta check out the facts.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Self-inflicted problems.

Such as?

They've just gotta check out the facts.

For example?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Such as?

Problems not related to racism.

For example?

Gains made since the civil rights laws of the 1960's.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Problems not related to racism.

Have you considered that a long history of racism may engender attitudes and behaviours in those discriminated against that are culture-wide in scope?

Gains made since the civil rights laws of the 1960's.

Gains mainly in law; the first steps. Not yet much evidence of changes in attitudes.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Have you considered that a long history of racism may engender attitudes and behaviours in those discriminated against that are culture-wide in scope?

We really need to understand the difference between racism and slavery. Africans have a long history slavery and discrimination in Africa. Slavery was not new to them.

My relatives didn't own slaves, and I have no feelings of guilt regarding it.

Gains mainly in law; the first steps. Not yet much evidence of changes in attitudes.

Income and quality of life have greatly improved since then. That they haven't improved more is a management problem, not a racism problem.

Negative attitudes are not surprising all things considered.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We really need to understand the difference between racism and slavery. Africans have a long history slavery and discrimination in Africa. Slavery was not new to them.

My relatives didn't own slaves, and I have no feelings of guilt regarding it.

Interesting... but I didn't mention slavery; not all racially disadvantaged groups have a history of slavery.

Income and quality of life have greatly improved since then. That they haven't improved more is a management problem, not a racism problem.

So you say - but the increases have not been uniform across perceived racial groups; in general, the more disadvantaged groups had lower increases in income and quality of life.

Negative attitudes are not surprising all things considered.

Indeed.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So you say - but the increases have not been uniform across perceived racial groups; in general, the more disadvantaged groups had lower increases in income and quality of life.

Once again it's matter of management.
"It's not how much money you earn, it's how you spend it."

Even with a smaller income one can build wealth (and isn't that what we're talking about?). It is interesting that the income/wealth equation for blacks so much smaller than for whites. Given the same income whites amass more wealth. This is clearly a black problem (although it seems to be more of a statistic than a problem.

Same with health. Whites have fewer medical problems than blacks, although both have access to the same knowledge, same food, etc. Even environmental differences don't explain the disparity. Even blacks that have good health insurance coverage fare worse.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Once again it's matter of management.
"It's not how much money you earn, it's how you spend it."

Even with a smaller income one can build wealth (and isn't that what we're talking about?). It is interesting that the income/wealth equation for blacks so much smaller than for whites. Given the same income whites amass more wealth. This is clearly a black problem (although it seems to be more of a statistic than a problem.

Same with health. Whites have fewer medical problems than blacks, although both have access to the same knowledge, same food, etc. Even environmental differences don't explain the disparity. Even blacks that have good health insurance coverage fare worse.

Have you considered that the long-term cultural bias against them has affected not just their equality of opportunity in work, housing, location, etc., but their behaviour and view of themselves, i.e. their psychology? IOW what are the effects of growing up with the expectation of being a disadvantaged 2nd class citizen?

Studies have shown that student that are told they are not as able as others will perform worse in exams, and the average performance of various minority groups (and females) in school is consistent with their general cultural self-image and self-esteem (those from strongly independent cultural backgrounds with a strong work ethic tend to outperform, and vice-versa)...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Have you considered that the long-term cultural bias against them has affected not just their equality of opportunity in work, housing, location, etc., but their behaviour and view of themselves, i.e. their psychology? IOW what are the effects of growing up with the expectation of being a disadvantaged 2nd class citizen?

Studies have shown that student that are told they are not as able as others will perform worse in exams, and the average performance of various minority groups (and females) in school is consistent with their general cultural self-image and self-esteem (those from strongly independent cultural backgrounds with a strong work ethic tend to outperform, and vice-versa)...

All this is well known, but who is responsible for changing it, and how?

While the average person harbors some racism what is affecting blacks most is deliberate racism from the powerful forces in our country. It isn't 'systemic', it's targeted. The good will of most white people towards blacks is impotent against these forces.

Consider the abysmal failure of the war on drugs. These powerful forces have rejected the only effective means of winning it, while at the same time draining the pockets of taxpayers and enriching themselves in their deliberately failed efforts.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

All this is well known, but who is responsible for changing it, and how?

Unfortunately, almost everyone involved, and it would probably take more than a generation. It is an extremely difficult situation to improve, requiring wholesale sociocultural change. As the old Irish saying has it, "I wouldn't start from here..."

While the average person harbors some racism what is affecting blacks most is deliberate racism from the powerful forces in our country. It isn't 'systemic', it's targeted. The good will of most white people towards blacks is impotent against these forces.

I think it's both systemic and targeted, and the two are related - targeting of minorities by the authorities reinforces the perception by the majority that those minorities are a threat to the community, and that perception leads to support for such targeting. Unfortunately, in the US this is entangled with, and complicated by, extremely polarised political and social views.

I saw a recent report of a study of political polarisation in the US that found that most 'political' opinion of those they looked at was minimally about policies, and far more about the reflex opposition to, and contradiction of, whatever the 'other side' wanted or did. IOW, the rivalry had changed from political to tribal on nominally political grounds. At that point, changing policies has a negligible effect on the divide.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Unfortunately, almost everyone involved, and it would probably take more than a generation. It is an extremely difficult situation to improve, requiring wholesale sociocultural change. As the old Irish saying has it, "I wouldn't start from here..."

I agree that 'wholesale' changes are needed, but not by everyone. The starting point is education, beginning with learning why one is failing.

"If you want to sculpt an elephant you must chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant."

I think it's both systemic and targeted, and the two are related - targeting of minorities by the authorities reinforces the perception by the majority that those minorities are a threat to the community, and that perception leads to support for such targeting. Unfortunately, in the US this is entangled with, and complicated by, extremely polarised political and social views.

Black crime is a major threat to the black community.

I saw a recent report of a study of political polarisation in the US that found that most 'political' opinion of those they looked at was minimally about policies, and far more about the reflex opposition to, and contradiction of, whatever the 'other side' wanted or did. IOW, the rivalry had changed from political to tribal on nominally political grounds. At that point, changing policies has a negligible effect on the divide.

As an old bootlegger said when his pastor roundly condemned the practice in a fiery sermon on sinfulness,

"He's stopped preachin' to gone to meddlin'."

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I agree that 'wholesale' changes are needed, but not by everyone. The starting point is education, beginning with learning why one is failing.

Pretty much everyone is failing in one way or another, including those that deny the problem, or deny any responsibility; so there needs to be education of various kinds. But addressing explicit racism won't succeed without also addressing the implicit (subconscious) racism ingrained in social and cultural biases.

I can see our society in the UK has similar problems; worrying and getting worse, but still far less acute.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Pretty much everyone is failing in one way or another, including those that deny the problem, or deny any responsibility; so there needs to be education of various kinds. But addressing explicit racism won't succeed without also addressing the implicit (subconscious) racism ingrained in social and cultural biases.

I can see our society in the UK has similar problems; worrying and getting worse, but still far less acute.

We must place racism where it belongs in the hierarchy of things that need to change.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We must place racism where it belongs in the hierarchy of things that need to change.

And where would that be?

 

[Ophiolite]

I can see our society in the UK has similar problems; worrying and getting worse, but still far less acute

Similar, but less acute problems, I agree, but getting worse? My perception is that they are now more evident to those not directly affected (but often responsible) and are being openly discussed and debated. This, to mind, is progress, though we still have a great distance to go.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Similar, but less acute problems, I agree, but getting worse? My perception is that they are now more evident to those not directly affected (but often responsible) and are being openly discussed and debated. This, to mind, is progress, though we still have a great distance to go.

I certainly hope things improve in future - at least Covid seems to have had a more positive social effect here than across the pond, and Brexit and its divisions may begin to fade in public memory...