Pastor John MacArthur

[Servus]

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Well there are levels of living in eternal life. Some just believe in Jesus and receive God's free gift of eternal life and go no further in their life. While others believe and go on to having an abundant life now and eternity.

The apostle knew there was more Jesus offer than just receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life and were kind of arrogant about being number one.

Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Him, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.”
And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”

So the gift they receive is endless meaningless life?

 

[d taylor]

So the gift they receive is endless meaningless life?

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If you want to think of God's Life as meaningless be my guest.

 

[Servus]

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If you want to think of God's Life as meaningless be my guest.

When you said they go no further I thought you meant throughout eternity. But you saying God's Life let's me know that's not what you meant. Anyways, God's Life is what I am talking about. That's what the gift of eternal life through Christ is, eternity with God. Why would someone who wanted to go on their own terms rather than God's terms throughout most of their earthly life, want to go through eternity in God's Life?

 

[d taylor]

When you said they go no further I thought you meant throughout eternity. But you saying God's Life let's me know that's not what you meant. Anyways, God's Life is what I am talking about. That's what the gift of eternal life through Christ is, eternity with God. Why would someone who wanted to go on their own terms rather than God's terms throughout most of their earthly life, want to go through eternity in God's Life?

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Because living out a person belief in Jesus to the full extent, in the age of satan. Is a hard and lonely task, it is so much easier to stay in the world they are in and enjoy its earthly pleasures. That is why only one soil out of the three believing soils bore fruit.

 

[Servus]

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Because living out a person belief in Jesus to the full extent, in the age of satan. Is a hard and lonely task, it is so much easier to stay in the world they are in and enjoy its earthly pleasures. That is why only one soil out of the three believing soils bore fruit.

What about "every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 7:19) and similar sayings by Jesus?

 

[d taylor]

What about "every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 7:19) and similar sayings by Jesus?

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By Their Fruits You Shall Know Them (Matthew 7:15-20) – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Servus]

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By Their Fruits You Shall Know Them (Matthew 7:15-20) – Grace Evangelical Society

That pretty much takes it down to Zane Hodges vs John MacArthur and deciding which one is right. Although Hodges is in the minority, especially when taking the entire history of Christian belief into consideration. To me personally ungodly saved and carnal christian are oxymorons.

 

[d taylor]

That pretty much takes it down to Zane Hodges vs John MacArthur and deciding which one is right. Although Hodges is in the minority, especially when taking the entire history of Christian belief into consideration. To me personally ungodly saved and carnal christian are oxymorons.

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“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
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I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

 

[Servus]

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“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
-------------------------------------------
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

How does that support Hodges' stance on carnal christians?

 

[d taylor]

How does that support Hodges' stance on carnal christians?

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So you do not see the believers Paul is addressing as carnal.

 

[Servus]

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So you do not see the believers Paul is addressing as carnal.

Only if I read it through a liberal lens.

 

[d taylor]

Only if I read it through a liberal lens.

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So believers who are sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

You have to have a liberal lens to see this.

 

[Servus]

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So believers who are sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

You have to have a liberal lens to see this.

That depends on how one chooses to interpret "named a brother". Other translations say "claims to be a brother" or "claims to be a believer" or "so-called brother". Most of Christianity throughout history has interpreted that as Paul talking about false fake believers. The tares among the wheat. But I suppose Hodges said the tares are true believers.

Why not say the demons are believers too which can be "proven" by them acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God. "Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” Luke 4:41. See? There's scriptural proof that demons are also believers! That's an example of you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

 

[d taylor]

That depends on how one chooses to interpret "named a brother". Other translations say "claims to be a brother" or "claims to be a believer" or "so-called brother". Most of Christianity throughout history has interpreted that as Paul talking about false fake believers. The tares among the wheat. But I suppose Hodges said the tares are true believers.

Why not say the demons are believers too which can be "proven" by them acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God. "Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” Luke 4:41. See? There's scriptural proof that demons are also believers! That's an example of you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

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[Servus]

That depends on how one chooses to interpret "named a brother". Other translations say "claims to be a brother" or "claims to be a believer" or "so-called brother". Most of Christianity throughout history has interpreted that as Paul talking about false fake believers. The tares among the wheat. But I suppose Hodges said the tares are true believers.

Why not say the demons are believers too which can be "proven" by them acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God. "Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” Luke 4:41. See? There's scriptural proof that demons are also believers! That's an example of you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

Is there a comment to go along with that quote?

 

[d taylor]

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The So-Called So-Called Brother – 1 Corinthians 5:11

October 1, 1991 by Bob Wilkin in Grace in Focus Articles

But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one. (NASV)

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (NIV)

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person. (NKJV)

The Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints asserts that no true believer can fall into serious sin–at least not for more than a very short time. Thus when such interpreters come to a passage which talks about someone who is persisting in serious sin–for example, someone who is an immoral person–they must conclude that he or she is unsaved, regardless of solid evidence in the text to the contrary.

The So-Called So-Called Brother – 1 Corinthians 5:11 – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Servus]

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The So-Called So-Called Brother – 1 Corinthians 5:11

October 1, 1991 by Bob Wilkin in Grace in Focus Articles

But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one. (NASV)

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (NIV)

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner–not even to eat with such a person. (NKJV)

The Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints asserts that no true believer can fall into serious sin–at least not for more than a very short time. Thus when such interpreters come to a passage which talks about someone who is persisting in serious sin–for example, someone who is an immoral person–they must conclude that he or she is unsaved, regardless of solid evidence in the text to the contrary.

The So-Called So-Called Brother – 1 Corinthians 5:11 – Grace Evangelical Society

In my opinion Zane Hodges and his replacement Bob Wilkin’s teaching can be summed up as it's okay to be an ungodly carnal christian. It's music to the ears of those who want to live a life of hedonistic depravity and have a ticket to heaven.

I used to actually like what I heard from Wilkin and Hank Lindstrom who teaches the same thing. But as the Holy Spirit made me increasingly painfully spiritually aware of my wrongdoing, the more I realized my state of complacency was being bolstered by what I was hearing from them.

Aside from that I think it's a mistake to wholly subscribe to one man's teaching as if it's the end all infallible authority on how scripture should be interpreted.

 

[d taylor]

In my opinion Zane Hodges and his replacement Bob Wilkin’s teaching can be summed up as it's okay to be an ungodly carnal christian. It's music to the ears of those who want to live a life of hedonistic depravity and have a ticket to heaven.

I used to actually like what I heard from Wilkin and Hank Lindstrom who teaches the same thing. But as the Holy Spirit made me increasingly painfully spiritually aware of my wrongdoing, the more I realized my state of complacency was being bolstered by what I was hearing from them.

Aside from that I think it's a mistake to wholly subscribe to one man's teaching as if it's the end all infallible authority on how scripture should be interpreted.

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Yeah you have said that before, so there is noting else to discuss at least from my end.

 

[Servus]

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Yeah you have said that before, so there is noting else to discuss at least from my end.

There isn't because it's what Bob Wilkin says and only what Bob Wilkin says no matter what.

 

[YeshuaFan]

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Well there are levels of living in eternal life. Some just believe in Jesus and receive God's free gift of eternal life and go no further in their life. While others believe and go on to having an abundant life now and eternity.

The apostle knew there was more Jesus offer than just receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life and were kind of arrogant about being number one.

Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Him, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.”
And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”

This ties into eternal rewards once in heaven, as we will be accountable to God for how we used or did not use wisely the gifts that He gave unto us.