Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
Paul believed the Holy Spirt, and the next man executed by the God-ordained government was himself.
Some shoes you're following there, SoF.
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Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)
- Thread starter ShieldOFaith
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Paul believed the Holy Spirt, and the next man executed by the God-ordained government was himself.
Some shoes you're following there, SoF.
Try reading the Bible. You'll see I'm right.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. --Rom. 13
See! I'm still right. God still has given the government the right to preform capital punishment.
Still right.
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And here is where I must draw the line. I have to question your salvation now. Because I am a Christian and I love God very very much.
I never have seen a true Christian call another Christian evil, or possessed. I can let a few names slip by, but now you are tredding on blaspheme.
Warning***
Be careful with the possessed talk friend. The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is an extremely serious sin.
Once again I AM COMING TO YOU STRAIGHT FROM THE WORD OF GOD.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. --ROMANS 13
There is nothing you can say against this.
This is THE HOLY SPIRIT of GOD speaking.
Pay attention!!!
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. --ROMANS 13
GOD SAYS I AM RIGHT.
You are 100% wrong if you say the above passage of Holy Scripture is evil, or comes from lucifer (i.e. the one who wrote it was possessed by demons.).
Be very very careful of what you say next.
You are not messing with me; you are now messing with GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. --Mark 3
***WARNING, MAY BE DANGEROUS TO YOUR SPIRITUAL HEALTH***
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TheReasoner
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Except you're not. Those verses are not conclusive in any way. They can be seen as indicative, but only vaguely so.
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reverend B
Senior Veteran
the scripture is obviously in conflict with reality, as it is perfectly possible that the government will ask you to do what is evil, and then you will not be able to do what is good and do what the government instructs you to do. that was the problem for the people of nazi germany, and not "going along" is what cost bonhoffer his life.
don't suggest i haven't read the Bible again. i will consider it an open flame, as i have told you i have read it repeatedly, and yet still come to different conclusions than your agenda driven Bible college did.
don't suggest i haven't read the Bible again. i will consider it an open flame, as i have told you i have read it repeatedly, and yet still come to different conclusions than your agenda driven Bible college did.
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Gremlins
Regular Member
You're still, I'm afraid, basing your entire set of assumptions on the idea that the bible is *right*. This doesn't always hold up well in courts of law, which require solid evidence. Bending over backwards and doing pretty awful stuff to keep their religious convictions intact is one of the reasons I (and presumably others here) aren't to keen on theocracies in the Middle East. The argument stands just as strongly for what you're proposing. Each year in this country there's a few high-profile "honour killings" of Sikh or Muslim girls who run away from arranged marriages. Apparently followers of these two religions have the "right" to do this. Religious texts do not stand up as evidence in a court of law.
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Sycophant
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Romans 13, if we take your word for it on the validity, essentially then says that a government is infallible and has some sort of higher power of it's own.
It's deeds and actions are apparently unimportant as god has declared it good, just and appointed by god.
Therefore it is ungodly to resist legalised gay marriage if that is what the government chooses to do. And I never again want to hear from a true Christian about the government somehow persecuting Chrisitianity (war on Christmas, etc) as the government is good and right always.
There was obviously nothing wrong with the policies of Nazi Germany, as the government was appointed by god, and presumably doing god's will.
Also, I never again want to hear about Christians in other parts of the world being persecuted, as "whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God"
In fact if Romans 13 is to be believed I think it's inappropriate for Christians to have any vocal involvement in politics at all. Look at most of the threads in this forum, it is Christians resisting the government (and therefor the ordinance of god).
So if the government says you must hand in your guns, and that you have to register to go to church, and that you must provide 100% of your income in tax for proper distribution, then I expect to hear no true Christians (like yourself SoF) complain.
Edited to add:
I've been thinking more about this... Isn't all this talk of creating a new country going against god then? If the government (including the US government obviously) is ordained by god, and it is resisting the lord to resist the government, then seceding would be against god, as it is against the government.
It's deeds and actions are apparently unimportant as god has declared it good, just and appointed by god.
Therefore it is ungodly to resist legalised gay marriage if that is what the government chooses to do. And I never again want to hear from a true Christian about the government somehow persecuting Chrisitianity (war on Christmas, etc) as the government is good and right always.
There was obviously nothing wrong with the policies of Nazi Germany, as the government was appointed by god, and presumably doing god's will.
Also, I never again want to hear about Christians in other parts of the world being persecuted, as "whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God"
In fact if Romans 13 is to be believed I think it's inappropriate for Christians to have any vocal involvement in politics at all. Look at most of the threads in this forum, it is Christians resisting the government (and therefor the ordinance of god).
So if the government says you must hand in your guns, and that you have to register to go to church, and that you must provide 100% of your income in tax for proper distribution, then I expect to hear no true Christians (like yourself SoF) complain.
Edited to add:
I've been thinking more about this... Isn't all this talk of creating a new country going against god then? If the government (including the US government obviously) is ordained by god, and it is resisting the lord to resist the government, then seceding would be against god, as it is against the government.
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TheReasoner
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Then why are you so full of hate?
I do not know if you are a Christian or not. That is up to God to judge. What I do know is that you do not show the fruits of the spirit. And you talk as Satan did to Jesus when he tempted him. I am not saying the Holy spirit is evil.
So you're saying that by saying there's a possibility that you - a self professed holy man, yet genocidal and hateful beyond anything I have ever seen before - might be possessed is to blaspheme against the Holy spirit?
Would it be to blaspheme against the Holy spirit to say there was a possibility of Hitler being possessed? I don't think so. I have not said you are possessed. Nor have I said Hitler was. I am merely saying that for this amount of evil to be in you, yet for you to believe it all to be good and holy that it is a possibility.
No. You're coming at me with very subjective interpretations thereof which are in starch contrast to the life of Christ, the actions of Christ, the teachings of Christ, the overall content of the new covenant and thus the bible. You pull out single verses and use them in conflict with the greater context.
This does not say "Execution is good and holy". It says "beware of breaking the law". True, you can draw a conclusion that this includes capital punishment, but basing such a statement on him (the official) carrying a sword is pretty thin.
Is Romans 13 the only verse you know? Do you think repeating it will somehow magically make your own sick interpretation drawn to extremes any more right?
No. You say you are right. You are not God. You're a fallible human being. You claim God does so by less than a hair's width of basis. And claiming you can't be wrong is yet another sin. You're so proud and arrogant I don't know what to say to it all.
Ho now Shield, what's wrong with you? I am not saying ANYTHING in the bible comes from lucifer! But we know from the bible lucifer can use the scriptures for his wicked purposes. Didn't Satan try to use scripture to tempt Jesus?
And again, just to clarify, it is not a position on death penalty which has me infuriated here, it is that your position on death penalty means you have death penalty confused with genocide!
It is that try as I might I can see exceptionally few differences between you, and for example Adolf Hitler.
*sigh*
No, Shield. I am still talking to a very evil person who might also be insane. I am talking to you. And I am praying for you.
May be? Blaspheming against the Holy spirit is not forgiven. It is quite terminal.
Claiming that I have done so is quite serious as well though. And again, you don't have any basis for your claims. You could just as well use the story of little red riding hood and have the same basis for your accusations.
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TheNewWorldMan
phased plasma rifle in 40-watt range
And there we go again, as I predicted...like megalomaniac dictators of the past, you increasingly equate yourself with God. You have already proclaimed your own inerrancy, and now you take upon yourself the mantle of the Holy Spirit itself.
All that is left now is for you to formally proclaim yourself a living God, or at least His divinely appointed messenger. Or maybe you will claim an arch-angel led you to some gold plates somewhere with the "lost" Book of ShieldOfFaith inscribed on them.
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Sycophant
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He's not claiming anything of the sort. It's just that he is the only persona capable of understanding the bible properly (for example, the true meaning of John 8:7 being a evil trick to catch Jesus in a technicality related to the laws of Leviticus.)
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Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
So now you have all the excuse you need to hang him. Do try to look at the bright side, SoF -- another lynching for your glorious nation!
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Not much Paul can say for it, either, seeing as how he was executed by those very same Romans.
Death by Irony -- gotta love it.
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I thought it was ShieldOFaith speaking. Apparantly THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD needs therapy.
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Pay a dollar!
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Which means God said Saddam was right -- he was a government leader appointed by God and his people, and as such, George W. Bush, appointed by God and the Supreme Court, had no business ousting him.
Come to think of it, just about every despot in history -- Nero and Caligula of the Romans, Caesare Borgia of Italy, Hitler of Germany, and yourself of the C.S.A.,. (the list is truly endless), was appointed by God and as such deserved the respect and obedience of their people.
As long as we're at it, wouldn't George III of England have merited the same divine right? As such, weren't our Faounding Fathers, appointed by nobody, it should be added, committing a vile sin by revolting back in 1776?
You've already hanged everything the FFs stood for, Shield -- why not take the next logical step and hang them?
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Words in a book can be used for good or evil. What use are you putting them to, except to destroy the people you fear?
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Sorry, Shield, checked -- you're still not God.
You see, you need to form the C.S.A. first before electing yourself messiah.
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[Bible]1 Corinthians 13:1-3[/Bible]
Put the brass band away, Shield -- you're just making noise.
And in positions of authority, completely toxic. But in small doses you can be quite amusing.
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TheNewWorldMan
phased plasma rifle in 40-watt range
Let's look at the record. SoF has already claimed inerrancy (both in his own word and his interpretation of Scripture) and has said that is you mess with him, you mess with the Holy Spirit.
A formal claim to Godhood? Probably not. But the distance between his assertions and such a claim is already rather small, and shortens with every post SoF makes.
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No I am not at all equating myself with God, and you know that NWO.
I was speaking to FG and I was telling him that mocking Romans 13 or saying that if he is saying that Romans 13 is from lucifer, then he'd be comitting the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.
I have no delusions at all that I am anything near GOD in capacity, holiness, righteousness, power, glory...ect..!!! I have never even hinted toward that!!! EVER!!!
If you say I did you're lying!!!
If anyone here understands the ALMIGHTY POWER AND GLORY OF GOD, it is I!!! I understand how powerful and awesome HE is! You will notice that I usually Cap His Name or reference to His name or title.
HE holds the keys to death and hell. HE holds the power of salvation. HE holds all things together by the power of His Word!!!
HE is beyond anything you can imagine in your mind.
I am but a lowly servant. That's all I will ever be. I will never ever be anything but a lowly servant to the KING OF Kings!!!
Here is one of my fav. Scriptures:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? --Daniel 4
Don't ever even think that you or I, or any other little sinful human being is ever even in His league. Ever!
The Holy One of Israel rules the universe!!!
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Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
You've already said that your words are God's words.
You've already said that to disagree with you is the same as disagreeing witrh God.
You've already said that mocking you is tantamount to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
THe line between all that and "I am God" ain't exactly wide.
And you'd be wrong -- as usual. because it's not Romans 13 he's mocking, but your use of it to justify the C.S.A.'s Final Solution.
Clearly you have. You've both explicitly and implicitly taken on the task of God. Why deny it now, Shield? Might as well run with it.
Nope, it's pretty much there by your own words, Lord of the C.S.A.
Completely irrelevent. You cap your own name as well, do you not?
None of which requires YOUR aid -- yet you send him corpses in droves.
YOU, on the other hand, are all to easy to predict.
Lowlier than you think if killing in His name is the best -- indeed the only thing -- you can manage.
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Here's one of my own favorite Scriptures:
"Satan hasn't a single salaried helper. The Opposition employs millions." -- Mark Twain 3:16
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The Holy One of Israel rules the universe!!!
Except for the C.S.A. -- that's all yours.
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Now I am going to break down your argument so you can see your error.
1. It is not a subjective interpretation. It is not at all in contrast of the life of Christ.
I am doing what is known as exegesis from this passage, not eisegesis. Liberal scholars love eisegetical form of interpretation. I am from a conservative fundamentalist bible college and we use exegesis as our rule of interpreting the Holy Bible.
What does the passage say? That's what you let the passage say. You take the passage as is and let the Word of God speak.
[FONT=Arial,Geneva,Helvetica]First let's go old school a little.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]35 The king's favor is toward a wise servant, But his wrath is against him who causes shame. --Proverbs 14
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 12 It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 13 Righteous lips are the delight of kings; and they love him that speaketh right. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 14 The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it. 15 In the light of the king's countenance is life; and his favour is as a cloud of the latter rain. --Proverbs 16[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]12 The king's wrath is like the roaring of a lion, But his favor is like dew on the grass. --Proverbs 19[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2 The wrath of a king is like the roaring of a lion; Whoever provokes him to anger sins against his own life. --Proverbs 20
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]8 A king who sits on the throne of judgment Scatters all evil with his eyes. --Proverbs 20
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. --Proverbs 21
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 21 My son, fear the Lord and the king; Do not associate with those given to change; 22 For their calamity will rise suddenly, And who knows the ruin those two can bring? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 23 These things also belong to the wise: It is not good to show partiality in judgment. 24 He who says to the wicked, "You are righteous," Him the people will curse; Nations will abhor him. 25 But those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, And a good blessing will come upon them. --Proverbs 24
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money." So they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?" 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." --Matthew 22
Now we come to our main text.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] [/FONT]--Romans 13
Look at the very first sentence:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. [/FONT]
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How else should you read this? Is this talking about Ford Trucks? Is this saying the the the Fishbowl is rotting like old underwear? Is this opening line speaking of Martians laying eggs?
No! It is speaking clearly about the governing authorities who have been set up and appointed by God.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
How do we read this? Is this speaking of dancing drums pouring forth from Fred Sanfords head? Is this speaking of singing candy canes?
No! It is speaking clearly of not resisting the authority that God has set forth, because you'd be resisting the ordinance of God.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
How do we read this? Is this flying cows reading the Wall Street Journal? Is this radioactive muffins spoiling in the sun?
No! It is speaking clearly of Rulers being a Terror to those who do evil!!! Also if you do what is good, you will have praise from those same rulers.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
How do we read this? Golden footballs on top of a donut? Sissy Spacek doing the hula shuffle?
NO! This is speaking very clearly of the governing authorities being a minister of God to you for good. But if you do evil you need to be afraid because he "DOES NOT BEAR THE SWORD IN VAIN". He is GOD'S minister, an AVENGER to execute wrath on him who PRACTICES EVIL!!! Hello!
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
How do we read this? Fat babies crying over broken glass? Math teachers who do the splits? Clowns who bake cookies?
No! It is clearly speaking of being subject to these governing authorities so you won't suffer their wrath, and also for conscience sake. This is also why you pay your taxes!!! Even though us Republicans may not like this; Tough! You will pay your taxes!!!
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There! Once again we let the Word of God speak and we listen to what GOD wants us to hear.
We use exegesis to take the text itself and hear what it has to say. We do not use eisegesis and put our own thoughts and agendas into the text where they don't belong.
The Word of God is very clear and awesome!
The Word of God is holy and righteous.
The Word of God is pure and lovely.
The Word of God is glorious!!!
SOLI DEO GLORIA.
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Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
Christ did not have a lynching fetish.
And they are shaking their heads in despair at you now.
So, "Rote literalism" is an interpretation now? Some college...
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let's not. We don't live in the First Century AD anymore, do we?
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Saddam Hussein was God's Minister -- frightening thought of the day.
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And when your governing authorities put up a statue of Baal and pass a law requiring his worship, you will worship Baal!
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Then drop the lynching agenda and listen to Christ once in a while.
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And what you want to do with it is a disgrace.
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NON COMPOS MENTIS
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You have no clue about the Word of God. You can't because you are a heathen.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony* of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. --1 Cor. 2
Hence, your words are hollow.
SOLI DEO GLORIA.
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Sycophant
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Shield, I would like you to address these questions, if you would.
1) Given that you've said that legally sanctioned killing is not murder, how can you say abortion is murder?
2) As you seem to be stating that governing authorities are ordained by god, what is your view of the atrocities such as those conducted under Nazi Germany, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq?
3) As it seems to be against god to disobey government, how can you even consider the idea of creating a separate nation? Something which would currently be illegal.
4) More of the obeying government thing - how can you be critical of government?
Please address those four questions based on your understanding.
1) Given that you've said that legally sanctioned killing is not murder, how can you say abortion is murder?
2) As you seem to be stating that governing authorities are ordained by god, what is your view of the atrocities such as those conducted under Nazi Germany, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq?
3) As it seems to be against god to disobey government, how can you even consider the idea of creating a separate nation? Something which would currently be illegal.
4) More of the obeying government thing - how can you be critical of government?
Please address those four questions based on your understanding.
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