Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

[Bible Highlighter]

What is curious about those passages in Revelation 2:23, Revelation 20:12-13 is:

#1. What is the sea that gives up the dead?
Is it some kind of water?
Is it a term for the Lake of Fire and how it holds the island of the wicked?
Or something else?

#2. What is this judgment according to their works going to be like before they are cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed?
Will a murderer know the horror of his own victims?
Will a wicked person feel every time how their sin hurts God?
Will there be some kind of other punishment?
Whatever the punishment, we know our God is fair and just in His judgments.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think death (not sleep type death) is it. Once a person crosses over or onward into the after life beyond the stage of sleep type death, they cannot come back. The visions people have today from near death experiences are dreams while they are in the sleep type death stage (with the devil manipulating their dream or experience).

At least it a possibilty anyways.

....

As for false visions from people claiming of having seen Heaven:

God brought this verse to my mind today,

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9).

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Other interesting pieces of the jig saw puzzle about the afterlife is:

#1. The spirit shall return unto God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
#2. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27).

More than likely these passages above are not speaking immediately after death. I say this because the Richman appeared to still need answers (of which he received from Abraham) as to why he was in such a place. Granted, it could have been a reminder, too. But was it?

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I disagree with Proponents of Soul Sleep on a few passages.

For example the passage in Ecclesiastes 9,

"But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, and Ecclesiastes 9:10).

The context is verse 6,

" neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

The memory of them is forgotten because they have no more reward. Those two sentences are tied together and are not separate. So this passage is speaking of death in the physical world. It does not support soul sleep.


....

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Soul sleep is unorthodox, I believe. It's a mistake of interpretation, failing to take in the different contexts of 'death' in the passages. I don't think the early Christians ever had a notion of not going immediately to Heaven or Hell upon death. When a person was persecuted, they assumed that Paradise was immanent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Soul sleep is unorthodox, I believe. It's a mistake of interpretation, failing to take in the different contexts of 'death' in the passages. I don't think the early Christians ever had a notion of not going immediately to Heaven or Hell upon death. When a person was persecuted, they assumed that Paradise was immanent.

First, Scripture says we know in part. So it is a possibility that nobody can know for sure. Second, how soon are we talking here about us being aware in the after-life? What verse suggests it is immediate? My stand so far on soul sleep is that it only lasts briefly for a short period of time after physical death before they cross over to either paradise or torments (whereby they are consciously aware of their surroundings). This is based on Jesus distinguishing twice between sleep and death and also the real life narrative of Lazarus and the Richman.

What I have not seen in Scripture yet is that one can sleep again after going to such places. If so, is it a different kind of sleep? Perhaps some answers are not available to us about such details involving the after life. But it will not stop me from asking God about it and stopping in searching the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not.

...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I don't just accept something in the Bible just because the church says it is true. Granted, there are many things I do accept, like the Trinity and that the Earth was created in six literal 24 hour days. However, I strive to honor the Word of God in what it plainly says. I also try to make sense out of things. Granted, I realize there are some things you cannot explain like the miracles of God. While many have probably have said the same thing, tradition is hard to break. It is not easy to go against the grain and or to plow new ground.

I believe in a literal hell. The story of Lazarus and the Richman cannot be anything but a true narrative. For Jesus did not tell stories that were not based in reality. All his parables were set in the real world. Most churches teach Eternal Concious Torment or that the wicked will burn in hell and also burn for all eternity in the Lake of Fire (Which is overkill and goes way beyond what the crime actually calls for).

However, after close examination of the Scriptures, I believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is also a real place but nobody is tortured in any flames there (like the popular movies and books of today like to promote). For Lazarus could not have carried on a normal conversation with anyone if he was being engulfed in flames. People normally cannot talk to you without screaming if they are being held down in a fire. This is important to understand because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. His parables). Anyways, the belief that there is a literal hell and the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire is called "Dualistic Conditionalism." This is what I believe the Scriptures plainly teach.

Lately, God has been calling it upon my heart to answer the question as to the length of time people spend consciously in Hell. How can someone who only sinned for a couple of years be incarcerated for thousands of years in a horrible place? I said to myself that time must operate differently there. But there is no evidence of Scripture for this. However, one possiblity that would resolve the problem of men being punished beyond the crimes they committed in hell would be the topic of "soul sleep." But there are just too many passages that show how others are conscious in the after-life. Yet, when I read how Jesus was laughed at when he said that the girl was sleeping and not dead, I find that a metaphorical interpretation to be unsettling. Yet, I do not agree with Soul Sleep's proponents and how they use certain verses in the Psalms as if it was a declaration of soul sleep, either (Like saying we do not have thoughts after death). Such verses are clearly speaking to make a metaphorical point and it is not one that speaks of the after-life per say. So for now, I am considering a partial soul sleep as being a possibilty. It makes sense. But I need to pray about it a lot and search the Scriptures for a long while before even considering such a thing as being remotely true.

So what soul sleep passages do you think would convince me?


....

Lets start at the beginning. If you're talking about soul sleep, then what is the soul?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

First, Scripture says we know in part. So it is a possibility that nobody can know for sure. Second, how soon are we talking here about us being aware in the after-life? What verse suggests it is immediate? My stand so far on soul sleep is that it only lasts briefly for a short period of time after physical death before they cross over to either paradise or torments (whereby they are consciously aware of their surroundings). This is based on Jesus distinguishing twice between sleep and death and also the real life narrative of Lazarus and the Richman.

What I have not seen in Scripture yet is that one can sleep again after going to such places. If so, is it a different kind of sleep? Perhaps some answers are not available to us about such details involving the after life. But it will not stop me from asking God about it and stopping in searching the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not.

...

A couple questions for you.

According to the bible, when are men given rewards for their works? When is all of our works brought into judgement? The bible clearly teaches that Jesus will come again to give every man his rewards according as his works shall be. Jesus said in John 14: 1 - 3 that he is going to prepare a place for us and it is when he comes again that he will take us to that place. If we go to Hell or Heaven/Paradise before the second coming, then this goes against what the bible says. It makes sense to me that everyone would be in their graves awaiting their judgement.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

What time is it that the heavens will be no more and a change will come?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When you look at all these scriptures together you get the understanding that nobody is going to heaven or hell at the moment of death, but they die and are resurrected when Jesus comes back to receive their reward. This is what was believed in Jesus' day because when Jesus told Martha that lazarus shall rise again, she said yes, at the resurrection at the last day. Why did she believe that? Because that is what the bible said which in her case would have been the Old Testament.
Concerning the issue you brought up about men burning for eternity. I don't believe this for the very reasons you stated but these scriptures also help.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perishing is being contrasted to having eternal life. If you are being tormented forever, then by definition you cannot perish, instead you must have eternal life.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Here again we see the idea of the wicked being consumed and devoured so that they no longer exist, which is opposite to them forever existing in torment.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The first lie of the devil was to do with death. Telling Adam and Eve that they were not going to die when God said they would surely die. And this is still a problem today and its the same lie. The second death is a finality, but some believe that the second death is eternal life in torment. There are scriptures which seem to say that, but the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were also described as eternal and it is not burning today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lets start at the beginning. If you're talking about soul sleep, then what is the soul?

A soul is one's mind, will, and emotions. While I do not endorse all of Watchman Nee's works (for several reasons - See this link here), his Biblical teaching on the soul and the spirit is probably the best article that I found and is Biblically sound (And I read a lot of articles on the subject).

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/spiritsoul.htm

Also, the teaching that the "soul" can only exist if one is alive is a false teaching. For the Bible says that God even has a soul. Granted, God's soul is eternal and uncreated.

https://www.learnthebible.org/does-god-have-a-soul.html

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A couple questions for you.

According to the bible, when are men given rewards for their works? When is all of our works brought into judgement? The bible clearly teaches that Jesus will come again to give every man his rewards according as his works shall be. Jesus said in John 14: 1 - 3 that he is going to prepare a place for us and it is when he comes again that he will take us to that place. If we go to Hell or Heaven/Paradise before the second coming, then this goes against what the bible says. It makes sense to me that everyone would be in their graves awaiting their judgement.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

.... (The rest of the post is eliminated to make room for what I have written).

According to the bible, when are men given rewards for their works and brought into Judgment? Well, this would be in their physical body. For both the righteous and the wicked will have a bodily resurrection and then they will each receive either good or bad according to what they have done (i.e. did they accept Jesus Christ as their savior, repent of their sins, and allow His good to work in them? Or did they do their own thing and live in sin?). In other words, they are being rewarded in their new resurrected physical body after the Judgment for what they have done in their old physical body that lived upon this Earth. But the passages you quote are not all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle about what will happen before a person receives their new resurrected body (While they are just spirit), though.

For we never lived just as a soul and spirit here on this Earth or anywhere else. Men who die will either go to Paradise or to Torments. This is kind of like a preliminary Judgment or holding place before the official one that is given to men in their physical bodies. For when men are convicted of a crime, they don't go to sleep but they are held in a prison until a court ruling (i.e. Official Judgment) can take place. If a man might hear a rumor that he might be getting a big promotion at work, he wouldn't sleep as the result of the news, but he probably celebrate ahead of time with his family by having a special dinner or he would go out and buy himself a nice new TV or something as a gift for himself and his family. I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. parables).

Also, while I agree that some passages in Scripture say we sleep after death (Which I believe happens for a very short period of time after the bodies dies), Scripture also testifies several times that men are conscious after death, as well.

#1. Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him that very day in Paradise.
(This would be Abraham's bosom) (For Jesus testifies elsewhere that he would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights and told us a specific story of what happens to a person's soul and spirit after they die within the Narrative of Lazarus and the Richman).

#2. Story of Lazarus and the Richman.
(None of Jesus's parables were something that were based on fiction or fantasy. All of Jesus's parables were based on a story that has either happened at some point before or could happen in the real world). (Jesus did not tell stories of people on Mars and I highly doubt Jesus would indulge a false person's traditions or fantasies about what they believed about the afterlife, either). (Jesus was a straight shooter and told us how things really were either literally or by metaphor, or by way of a real world example).

#3. The Fifth Seal.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Revelation 6:9-11).

How can souls be under the altar of God and cry out for vengeance for their shed blood on those who dwell on the Earth if souls are sleeping?

#4. Christ preached to the spirits in prison (Which were at one time disobedient during the time of Noah).

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." (1 Peter 3:19-22).

#5. Hell can move as they await certain individuals.

"Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." (Isaiah 14:9-11).


...

 

[mmksparbud]

#1. Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him that very day in Paradise.
(This would be Abraham's bosom) (For Jesus testifies elsewhere that he would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights and told us a specific story of what happens to a person's soul and spirit after they die within the Narrative of Lazarus and the Richman

SBLGNT 43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ · Ἀμήν σοι λέγω ⸃ σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.


Depends on where someone decides to put the comma---

43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

But Christ did not go that day to Paradise.

#2. Story of Lazarus and the Richman.
(None of Jesus's parables were something that were based on fiction or fantasy. All of Jesus's parables were based on a story that has either happened at some point before or could happen in the real world). (Jesus did not tell stories of people on Mars and I highly doubt Jesus would indulge a false person's traditions or fantasies about what they believed about the afterlife, either). (Jesus was a straight shooter and told us how things really were either literally or by metaphor, or by way of a real world example).

Are you saying when we die we literally get carried into Abrahams bosom??

#3. The Fifth Seal.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Revelation 6:9-11).

How can souls be under the altar of God and cry out for vengeance for their shed blood on those who dwell on the Earth if souls are sleeping?

So, we are carried into Abraham's bosom, and he places us under the altar of God??

#5. Hell can move as they await certain individuals.

"Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." (Isaiah 14:9-11).

I think I need further explanation as to what it is you mean by this.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

SBLGNT 43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ · Ἀμήν σοι λέγω ⸃ σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.


Depends on where someone decides to put the comma---

43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

But Christ did not go that day to Paradise.



Are you saying when we die we literally get carried into Abrahams bosom??




So, we are carried into Abraham's bosom, and he places us under the altar of God??




I think I need further explanation as to what it is you mean by this.

And that is the problem that people run into when they take passages in the bible literally, that are not supposed to be taken literally. The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. How big is Abraham's Boson? Would it be every expanding? And here you have the rich man who is burning and being tormented yet none of his body parts are being consumed and he can actually talk to Abraham. Yes in Acts it tells us that David is still dead and buried and has not yet ascended into the heavens.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[mmksparbud]

And that is the problem that people run into when they take passages in the bible literally, that are not supposed to be taken literally. The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. How big is Abraham's Boson? Would it be every expanding? And here you have the rich man who is burning and being tormented yet none of his body parts are being consumed and he can actually talk to Abraham. Yes in Acts it tells us that David is still dead and buried and has not yet ascended into the heavens.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Right about now, Abraham's bosom and the altar are pretty crowded. Is there a hole under the altar--or just shoved under there--isn't it kind of heavy??--Are they let out to eat of the tree of life once in a while and drink from the water of life and then shoved back under there---or is the fruit and water just thrown under there??

 

[Bible Highlighter]

SBLGNT 43 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ · Ἀμήν σοι λέγω ⸃ σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

Depends on where someone decides to put the comma---

43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

But Christ did not go that day to Paradise.

Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison, too. The Scriptures also say that he was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.

Are you saying when we die we literally get carried into Abrahams bosom??

Yes, the faithful saints will be taken by God's angels to Abraham's Bosom in the heart of the Earth until the Pre-Tribulation Rapture takes places. Then those who sleep (are dead) in Christ shall arise first and then those who are alive will be caught up in the air to meet Him.

So, we are carried into Abraham's bosom, and he places us under the altar of God??

This is speaking of the Tribulation saints who were martyred for their faith after the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And that is the problem that people run into when they take passages in the bible literally, that are not supposed to be taken literally. The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. How big is Abraham's Boson? Would it be every expanding?

God knows the future. So it is not like He has to learn in the moment to create a place that would be ever expanding. God knows who will be in Abraham's Bosom and He would have made sure that it was big enought to accomodate them all ahead of time.

And here you have the rich man who is burning and being tormented yet none of his body parts are being consumed and he can actually talk to Abraham.

No. When the Rich-man said, "I am tormented in this flame", he was saying that he was tormented by the heat of the flame that was in front of him in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For none of Jesus's parables were based on fantasies or stories that could not happen.

Yes in Acts it tells us that David is still dead and buried and has not yet ascended into the heavens.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

This is merely talking about how David will be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.


....

 

[PROPHECYKID]

God knows the future. So it is not like He has to learn in the moment to create a place that would be ever expanding. God knows who will be in Abraham's Bosom and He would have made sure that it was big enought to accomodate them all ahead of time.

So you actually believe that people literally go to Abraham's Bosom when they die? Do you know what the bosom is?

No. When the Rich-man said, "I am tormented in this flame", he was saying that he was tormented by the heat of the flame that was in front of him in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For none of Jesus's parables were based on fantasies or stories that could not happen.

The bible does not say that, you're interpreting it that way because you want it to make some kind of sense so it can be literal.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
The bible says tormented in the flame and you are saying tormented by the heat of the flame.

So you believe that people in Hell and people in Abraham's bosom have been talking to each other for all this time right.

This is merely talking about how David will be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Now you have completely gone of track. The passage itself explains what it is talking about. Peter was quoting from the Psalms and he was saying that the passage is not referring to David but it is referring to Jesus, because David is both dead and buries. Please read that passage again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you actually believe that people literally go to Abraham's Bosom when they die?

Yes, I believe the faithful saint who dies today goes to Abraham's Bosom. Then after the Pre-Trib Rapture, the true believer will go directly to Heaven. After the Rapture: The believer today will reside in the city of New Jerusalem, whereby later in time, this city will come down from out of Heaven and land on the Eternal New Earth after the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ. The saint who was beheaded during the Tribulation by the Antichrist will temporarily be in Heaven, too; But they will go thru the Millennium, though (Along with Abraham and select patriachs).

Do you know what the bosom is?

I am aware of it's metaphorical meaning which serves the purpose of why Abraham's Bosom is called that.

http://biblehub.com/topical/b/bosom.htm

But yes, it has a literal meaning, too.

The bible does not say that, you're interpreting it that way because you want it to make some kind of sense so it can be literal.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. The bible says tormented in the flame and you are saying tormented by the heat of the flame.

I can say I am tormented in this car and yet the car can be in front of me as I say that. It does not mean I have to be in the car to make such a statement. In other words, it is grammatically correct to say,

And the Joe was held really close to the large roaring bonfire by his new so called friends. And as Joe looked into the fire ahead of him by mere inches away, he screamed,

"Please stop it, I am tormented in this flame."

So you believe that people in Hell and people in Abraham's bosom have been talking to each other for all this time right.

No, I believe God is fair and just in His Judgments and He would not pre-judge a person beyond what the crime calls for. I believe either time may operate diffferently in Sheol (or the realm of the dead), or they may sleep for a large part of their time down there, or there is another reason that we do not know about (That God has not revealed to all of us). For we know in part and we prophecy in part. I also believe God will punish or reward a person after the Judgment with the saint going to the Eternal New Earth and the wicked being destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Now you have completely gone of track. The passage itself explains what it is talking about. Peter was quoting from the Psalms and he was saying that the passage is not referring to David but it is referring to Jesus, because David is both dead and buries. Please read that passage again.

Yes, my bad. I remember the passage now. I was tired when I read it. It is indeed referring to Jesus. But it is not proof that David is soul sleeping, though. It is merely talking about his physical body being dead and buried. It is talking in physical terms and not spiritual terms of how the Messiah will one day come thru the line of David (with David being physically resurrected bodily one day). But now Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is God Almighty and Lord.

For if people are soul sleeping then what do you make of the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Mount of Transfiguration? Were they woke up for that one moment and then put back to sleep? That doesn't really make any sense. Why even involve them then? That would be like waking up your child to inform him of something important than telling him to just then go back to sleep. If you want your child to remember what you were talking about, you would tell him when he was sober and awake.


...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Yes, my bad. I remember the passage now. I was tired when I read it. It is indeed referring to Jesus. But it is not proof that David is soul sleeping, though. It is merely talking about his physical body being dead and buried. It is taling physically and not spiritually of how the Messiah will one day come thru the line of David (with David being physically resurrected bodily one day). But now Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father.

For if people are soul sleeping then what do you make of the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Mount of Transfiguration? Were they woke up for that one moment and then put back to sleep? That doesn't really make any sense. Why even involve them then?


...

Elijah was caught up to heaven and did not see death and he was escorted to heaven by the angels. So its very easy to understand why Elijah would be there. Moses is a bit different.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

It is believed in Jewish tradition and at least implied in the scripture that Moses received a special resurrection by Michael the Archangel and was taken to heaven. This would explain why Moses was seen in heaven with Elijah. The text in Jude clearly states that Michael the Archangel went for the body of Moses, so it very logical that he was resurrected and taken to heaven.

What do you make of the combination of the following verses.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Elijah was caught up to heaven and did not see death and he was escorted to heaven by the angels. So its very easy to understand why Elijah would be there. Moses is a bit different.

Actually, Jesus said that no man ascends to Heaven except Himself, when He said,

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
(John 3:13)​

In other words, no man has ascended physically to Heaven but Jesus (i.e. the Son of Man).

Yeah, but what about Elijah?

I believe confusion arises on this point because people do not understand that there are:

Three Heavens​

The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!

The First Heaven:

The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25; 34:20,Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'

Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.

Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.

Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39,Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."

Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).

The Second Heaven:

The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5;22:17; 26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.

The Third Heaven:

The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter 1:4, Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14-16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.

Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.


Source Used:
Elijah, Enoch, and Moses
Important Note: Although I quoted part of this article to help explain the three heavens, I do not agree with their interpretation of on Enoch. I believe Enoch was translated or spiritually taken by God and did not see death (as the Scriptures say). So not all the views expressed at this website reflect my views on the Scriptures.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for Elijah being taken away to the 1st Heaven (i.e. the Sky), Philip was taken away by the Spirit to another location:

For just as Elijah was taken away in a chariot of fire.
Philip was talking to an Ethiopian in a chariot.
And later, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more. Just as Elisha had seen Elijah taken away. (Compare 2 Kings 2:11-12 & Acts 8:38-40).


...