• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Jason0047, Oct 16, 2015.

  1. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I don't just accept something in the Bible just because the church says it is true. Granted, there are many things I do accept, like the Trinity and that the Earth was created in six literal 24 hour days. However, I strive to honor the Word of God in what it plainly says. I also try to make sense out of things. Granted, I realize there are some things you cannot explain like the miracles of God. While many have probably have said the same thing, tradition is hard to break. It is not easy to go against the grain and or to plow new ground.

    I believe in a literal hell. The story of Lazarus and the Richman cannot be anything but a true narrative. For Jesus did not tell stories that were not based in reality. All his parables were set in the real world. Most churches teach Eternal Concious Torment or that the wicked will burn in hell and also burn for all eternity in the Lake of Fire (Which is overkill and goes way beyond what the crime actually calls for).

    However, after close examination of the Scriptures, I believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is also a real place but nobody is tortured in any flames there (like the popular movies and books of today like to promote). For Lazarus could not have carried on a normal conversation with anyone if he was being engulfed in flames. People normally cannot talk to you without screaming if they are being held down in a fire. This is important to understand because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. His parables). Anyways, the belief that there is a literal hell and the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire is called "Dualistic Conditionalism." This is what I believe the Scriptures plainly teach.

    Lately, God has been calling it upon my heart to answer the question as to the length of time people spend consciously in Hell. How can someone who only sinned for a couple of years be incarcerated for thousands of years in a horrible place? I said to myself that time must operate differently there. But there is no evidence of Scripture for this. However, one possiblity that would resolve the problem of men being punished beyond the crimes they committed in hell would be the topic of "soul sleep." But there are just too many passages that show how others are conscious in the after-life. Yet, when I read how Jesus was laughed at when he said that the girl was sleeping and not dead, I find that a metaphorical interpretation to be unsettling. Yet, I do not agree with Soul Sleep's proponents and how they use certain verses in the Psalms as if it was a declaration of soul sleep, either (Like saying we do not have thoughts after death). Such verses are clearly speaking to make a metaphorical point and it is not one that speaks of the after-life per say. So for now, I am considering a partial soul sleep as being a possibilty. It makes sense. But I need to pray about it a lot and search the Scriptures for a long while before even considering such a thing as being remotely true.

    So what soul sleep passages do you think would convince me?


    ....
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Steeno7

    Steeno7 Not I...but Christ

    +518
    Christian
    NOPE.
     
  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Most detectives that are good like to think outside the box. I have seen arguments for soul sleep and against soul sleep whereby they both make fast assumptions on certain verses that appear to be over reaching.

    One side looks at a certain set of verses and immedately makes assumptions that their position is true of which they imagine in their own minds. But just because someone imagines a certain thing to be correct, it does not actually make that something true or real.

    [​IMG]

    In other words, there have been crime scenes that have made it look like someone else had committed a crime at first glance. But with a little digging, one can find all the clues and piece together the other alternative that they may not have considered. A good detective does that. They look at all the facts and they do not rush to conclude anything without weighing in all the evidence first.


    ....
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
  4. Steeno7

    Steeno7 Not I...but Christ

    +518
    Christian
    Christianity has been around for 2000 years. There is nothing new under the Sun. Nothing. But, you are certainly free to spend the time you have trying to re-invent the wheel.

    "A great many of the ideas about God which are trotted out as novelties today, are simply the ones which real theologians tried centuries ago and rejected.”

    - C S Lewis
     
  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    For me the metaphorical interpretation of Jesus saying that the little girl sleepeth as equalling death does not make sense. Because Jesus makes a distinction between death and sleep. He says she is not dead but she sleepeth.

    ...
     
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
  7. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    In other words, if Jesus meant sleep is death and yet he said she is not dead but sleepeth. Basically, Jesus would be saying, she is not dead but she merely is dead.

    See how that doesn't make sense?

    ...
     
  9. Steeno7

    Steeno7 Not I...but Christ

    +518
    Christian
  10. Steeno7

    Steeno7 Not I...but Christ

    +518
    Christian
    Who said "since the apostles"? Let me simplify for you, there is nothing new that you are going to discover. But it's your life.....
     
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Let's stick to the topic of the thread. How can "sleep" be death if Jesus said that the little girl was not dead but sleeping (i.e. dead)? Jesus is correcting here and making a point of difference between sleep and death.


    ....
     
  12. Received

    Received True love waits in haunted attics

    +732
    Christian
    Married
    well, if we're using Luke 16 as a reference point, when's the last time you heard anyone having a full conversation while being enveloped in flames?

    That said, it's cool to talk with an annihilationist. In a sense I think even a literal hell understood according to annihilationism is much more moral than some vague eternal metaphorical hell. Have you read Clark Pinnock?
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I believe the story of the Richman and Lazarus is a real narrative. However, unlike popular church tradition, I believe the richman was not being burned in any actual flame, but he was tormented by the heat of the flame in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. So when the Richman said, "I tormented in this flame", he was referring to the flame in front of him (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me) (Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6 KJV). Also, the Scriptures say hell is an island. I believe the water of this island is the Lake of Fire. This makes sense because hell will be cast (it will drop down or it will be engulfed) by the Lake of Fire.

    Thank you. But I prefer the term "Conditionalist." More specifically, I am a "Dualistic Conditionalist." While I believe the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment, I do not believe they will bypass hell and be destroyed immediately after death as many annihilationists believe.

    Yeah, while the Bible does use metaphors, the "Metaphorical View of Hell" just doesn't seem to be supported by the text. I believe God does not torture people in hell and I believe God does not punish or incarcate them in hell beyond what the crime calls for. For we know in Scripture that God punishes according to the crime. This is based upon Luke 12:48 that says,

    "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

    In other words, I believe God is into fair justice. Nobody is going to get away with their crimes or sins against God and or others. I was not sure how people were fairly punished in hell. I thought one possibility is that time operated differently for each person there. But there is no mention of this in Scripture. So I thought that maybe a partial soul sleep could be the answer. So far it appears to match up with Scripture but I have not down my complete homework on such a topic yet, though. I don't want to rush into something and believe it if there is no Scriptural backing for such a position. Hence, the reason for this thread.

    No. I am not much for reading books by others. I prefer articles or commentaries that are quick and to the point. But thank you.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  14. Steeno7

    Steeno7 Not I...but Christ

    +518
    Christian
    Was He also "correcting" when He said Lazarus was sleeping?
     
  15. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Two different stages of death (in reference to passing on).

    #1. Sleep in reference to passing on
    (i.e. A state of death whereby one's soul and spirit is unconscious or unaware of anything while dead).

    #2. Death or Dead in reference to passing on
    (i.e. A state of death usually where one is aware on a conscious level like the Richman who was in Torments).​

    This makes sense because there are many people who die and come back to life and do not remember anything.

    Granted, this does not mean other people's visions of heaven or hell are real if they died by any means. The Bible is our authority and not some person who had a vision later on.

    Also, verse 4 says, "When Jesus heard that, he said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."" (John 11:4).

    Did you catch that? Jesus said this sickness is not unto death. Yet, Lazarus did indeed die. So again, just like with the little girl where Jesus distinguishes between sleep (i.e. a sleep type death) and regular death, we also see that here, too. For Jesus's words cannot contradict each other. If Jesus said Lazarus's sickeness was not unto death and he died, then he would have lied because he died. But if Jesus was referring to two different states of death, then there would be no contradiction.

    ....
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    See, if God did torture people in fire, wouldn't you think we would see God torture his enemies at some place else in the Bible in the real world? The closest thing you get is the 10 plagues in Egypt, but these plagues do not last for many months or years. I say this because God is consistent in the way He does things. God is fair and good in His judgments. For nobody. And I mean nobody can explain how torturing somebody in flames for thousands of years for a finite amount of crimes done against God is fair justice.

    Now, some will say that when one sins against God they are sinning against God eternally because God is eternal. This doesn't make any sense. When one sins, they are not traveling thru out eternity and sinning against Him on an eternal level. God did not make us so as to take action in all points in time thru out eternity. So such a belief or claim doesn't make any sense.

    ....
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  17. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    To furher add that Hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire: Well, the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show (Whereby the Richman is tormented by the heat of it).

    Deuteronomy 32:22
    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

    The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire.

    Isaiah 34:14
    "The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

    The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell below.


    ....
     
  18. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I think death (not sleep type death) is it. Once a person crosses over or onward into the after life beyond the stage of sleep type death, they cannot come back. The visions people have today from near death experiences are dreams while they are in the sleep type death stage (with the devil manipulating their dream or experience).

    At least it a possibilty anyways.

    ....
     
  19. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    +4,289
    United States
    SDA
    Widowed
    US-Others
    (Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    (Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    (Rev 2:23) And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


    They are punished "according to their works"----I do not understand the thinking of eternal life being given to the lost in order for them suffer eternally. Eternal life is given only to the saved. The saved are given access to the Tree of Life, not the lost in order to keep them living in torment. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death--not eternal dying.
     
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

    +4,623
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Amen. And I agree. And thank you for those verses, too.


    ...
     
Loading...