Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, after Elijah’s disappearance, King Jehoram intercepted a letter from Elijah warning him of the bad things that would come upon him as the result of his evil life. This letter can be read in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.


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[Bible Highlighter]

As for Moses, it is clear that he actualy died according to Scripture for there was a dispute over his body.


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[Bible Highlighter]

As for the word "soul": Well, I have already said before that Scripture says God has a soul. So a person's "soul" is not just in existence while they have the breath of life in a living physical body. Furthermore, Scripture says, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Acts 2:27) So how can one have a soul in hell if a soul can only exist while one is alive? The verse above suggests one can have a soul in hell.

 

[DamianWarS]

I don't just accept something in the Bible just because the church says it is true. Granted, there are many things I do accept, like the Trinity and that the Earth was created in six literal 24 hour days. However, I strive to honor the Word of God in what it plainly says. I also try to make sense out of things. Granted, I realize there are some things you cannot explain like the miracles of God. While many have probably have said the same thing, tradition is hard to break. It is not easy to go against the grain and or to plow new ground.

I believe in a literal hell. The story of Lazarus and the Richman cannot be anything but a true narrative. For Jesus did not tell stories that were not based in reality. All his parables were set in the real world. Most churches teach Eternal Concious Torment or that the wicked will burn in hell and also burn for all eternity in the Lake of Fire (Which is overkill and goes way beyond what the crime actually calls for).

However, after close examination of the Scriptures, I believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is also a real place but nobody is tortured in any flames there (like the popular movies and books of today like to promote). For Lazarus could not have carried on a normal conversation with anyone if he was being engulfed in flames. People normally cannot talk to you without screaming if they are being held down in a fire. This is important to understand because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. His parables). Anyways, the belief that there is a literal hell and the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire is called "Dualistic Conditionalism." This is what I believe the Scriptures plainly teach.

Lately, God has been calling it upon my heart to answer the question as to the length of time people spend consciously in Hell. How can someone who only sinned for a couple of years be incarcerated for thousands of years in a horrible place? I said to myself that time must operate differently there. But there is no evidence of Scripture for this. However, one possiblity that would resolve the problem of men being punished beyond the crimes they committed in hell would be the topic of "soul sleep." But there are just too many passages that show how others are conscious in the after-life. Yet, when I read how Jesus was laughed at when he said that the girl was sleeping and not dead, I find that a metaphorical interpretation to be unsettling. Yet, I do not agree with Soul Sleep's proponents and how they use certain verses in the Psalms as if it was a declaration of soul sleep, either (Like saying we do not have thoughts after death). Such verses are clearly speaking to make a metaphorical point and it is not one that speaks of the after-life per say. So for now, I am considering a partial soul sleep as being a possibilty. It makes sense. But I need to pray about it a lot and search the Scriptures for a long while before even considering such a thing as being remotely true.

So what soul sleep passages do you think would convince me?


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"Hell" is not the best word to use as it conjures up a very narrow view of what this place actually is. The OT also is not the best place to look for revelation on this subject as it only had one place for the good and the bad called Sheol; an indiscriminate place of the dead where all passed through.

The NT uses two main words translated as hell. Hades and Gehenna. In greek mythology Hades is very much like Sheol but in biblical use it is described as an undesired place of the dead that can be avoided. Typically Gehenna is shown as a more severe of the two with greater images of fire but hades also is shown with images of fire like in the case of the parable of the rich man. The two may be describing the same place as they appear to be somewhat interchangeable.

The fine points of the afterlife however are largely metaphorical and it doesn't give us a lot of detail. Even the parable of the rich man uses very concrete images yet there are problems with these images because we know "things" in fire will eventually burn up. At the very least there is something different with these flames then what we know a flame to be and we cannot with certainty know "hades" is a place of concrete suffering yet these are the images Jesus uses.

When it comes down to it the bible is a book written for the living by the living. It is not written for the dead or those in the afterlife. It has very practical guidance for the living but if we look to it as a source of guidance for the afterlife it is in many ways beyond the scope of the book even if it gives glimpses and a hope of things to come.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Hell" is not the best word to use as it conjures up a very narrow view of what this place actually is.

Well, I was just quoting what Acts 2:27 said and I was not offering a complete commentary on it. I am aware that the word "hell" can refer to either Sheol (the realm of the dead), Torments (i.e. the firely place known as hell), and or Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire - where the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence).

The OT also is not the best place to look for revelation on this subject as it only had one place for the good and the bad called Sheol; an indiscriminate place of the dead where all passed through.

I disagree. There is a saying:

"The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed; And the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed."​

For there are many amazing insights and details in the OT which amplify the New Testament.

The NT uses two main words translated as hell. Hades and Gehenna. In greek mythology Hades is very much like Sheol but in biblical use it is described as an undesired place of the dead that can be avoided. Typically Gehenna is shown as a more severe of the two with greater images of fire but hades also is shown with images of fire like in the case of the parable of the rich man. The two may be describing the same place as they appear to be somewhat interchangeable.

Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) is also called "hell" because I believe it is the lowest hell described in the Scriptures. The Bible implies that hell (Torments) is an island. I believe the water of this island is the Lake of Fire.

The fine points of the afterlife however are largely metaphorical and it doesn't give us a lot of detail.

We know in part and we prophecy in part.

Even the parable of the rich man uses very concrete images yet there are problems with these images because we know "things" in fire will eventually burn up. At the very least there is something different with these flames then what we know a flame to be and we cannot with certainty know "hades" is a place of concrete suffering yet these are the images Jesus uses.

I don't think the images are confusing. It is the reader who is confused by the type of language that was used. The story of Lazarus and the Rich-man makes perfect sense in a literal sense. When the Rich-man said, "I am tormented in this flame" I believe he was referring to the flame in front of him in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham (i.e. the flames from the Lake of Fire). For example: I can say, "I am tormented in this tornado" and yet the twister would be in front of my view coming towards me.

When it comes down to it the bible is a book written for the living by the living. It is not written for the dead or those in the afterlife. It has very practical guidance for the living but if we look to it as a source of guidance for the afterlife it is in many ways beyond the scope of the book even if it gives glimpses and a hope of things to come.

What is the importance behind the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man? What is the importance of knowing if there is a real hell? What is the importance of knowing there is a Paradise or Abraham's Bosom? What is the importance in knowing that we may sleep briefly in death before crossing over to the realm of the dead in the heart of the Earth? These are good questions to ponder for us as believers with the help of our Lord and Savior (of course).

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


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[DamianWarS]

Well, I was just quoting what Acts 2:27 said and I was not offering a complete commentary on it. I am aware that the word "hell" can refer to either Sheol (the realm of the dead), Torments (i.e. the firely place known as hell), and or Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire - where the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence).

Most modern translations no longer use "hell". It is important to understand the biblical context of the word before we get into the finer details of what the place really means.

Sheol is the realm of the dead in OT context however what you will find is there is a very poor understanding of what happened to you when you die in the OT. And traditional heaven and hell places are absent. Sheol is more of a concept to represent death rather than a literal physical place.

There is no biblical place of the afterlife called "torments" so I'm not sure what you are getting at there, perhaps you mean "Tartarus" (2 Peter 2:4). Tartarus in greek mythology is the lowest place of Hades where the Titans are chained up. Peter uses the reference to suggest fallen Angels are locked up there. It's a very limited reference and there is little we get from it. Peter May have been contextualizing greek beliefs and it is unclear how this place affects the afterlife of those who perish.

Gehenna is a reference of a place for burning garbage outside the city limits, Jesus seems to be using it a common accepted expression for a place of judgement but there is little teaching of what this place actually is. Gehenna is most commonly associated with fire and torment in the NT and if Hades and Gehenna were compared Gehenna comes across as a greater place of torment. The bible does not tell us however that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same places but that is a theory. The Lake of Fire is only mentioned in Rev. And rev. doesn't ever mention the word Gehenna. Hades is mentioned but it is directly contrasted with the Lake of Fire, ie. Rev. 20:14 we see Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, this is called the second death where there is a final judgment of unbelievers.

I disagree. There is a saying:

"The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed; And the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed."

For there are many amazing insights and details in the OT which amplify the New Testament.

The people in the OT had very little knowledge of the afterlife. There is no unique place for the righteous or for the evil. They called it Sheol and as a physical location it is down in the earth but it is an indiscriminate place where all people passed through. Sheol is more of a place of the unknown and reflects the knowledge of the time. There is no imagery of fire with this place. Torment in Sheol is about death being undesired than it is about an afterlife where torment is constant.

Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) is also called "hell" because I believe it is the lowest hell described in the Scriptures. The Bible implies that hell (Torments) is an island. I believe the water of this island is the Lake of Fire.

Scripture does not reveal to us that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Your going to have to expand on this whole idea of an island too because I not aware of such implications. In terms of levels of Hades, as earlier mentioned, Tartarus is the lowest place of hades.

We know in part and we prophecy in part.

Has the perfect come yet? This scripture verse has debatable meaning. I believe the perfect is Jesus and when he comes again we will no longer need the gifts of the Holy Spirit to to fill in our cracks. But that discussion is for another thread.

I don't think the images are confusing. It is the reader who is confused by the type of language that was used. The story of Lazarus and the Rich-man makes perfect sense in a literal sense. When the Rich-man said, "I am tormented in this flame" I believe he was referring to the flame in front of him in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham (i.e. the flames from the Lake of Fire). For example: I can say, "I am tormented in this tornado" and yet the twister would be in front of my view coming towards me.

Parables give the audience very concrete concepts but used metaphorically and many times without the audience being aware of this. If we take the parables literally then our mission is about spreading seed and feeding sheep. Certainly parables can give us extra insight and may be using literal concepts but we need to use wisdom with the values and teaching within the parables over the concrete images.

What is the importance behind the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man? What is the importance of knowing if there is a real hell? What is the importance of knowing there is a Paradise or Abraham's Bosom? What is the importance in knowing that we may sleep briefly in death before crossing over to the realm of the dead in the heart of the Earth? These are good questions to ponder for us as believers with the help of our Lord and Savior (of course).

We first need to have strong foundation to these concepts before we freely ponder their limits. And we must reconcile why the bible offers us very limited insight into these areas. A statement like "we may sleep briefly in death before crossing over to the realm of the dead in the heart of the Earth" is taking a lot of liberties and demands clear biblical rational for each thought.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Most modern translations no longer use "hell". It is important to understand the biblical context of the word before we get into the finer details of what the place really means.

Yes, you are right. The Biblical context determines the meaning of a word. Regardless if one uses a Modern Version or the KJV, one still needs to read the surrounding context to determine what a word is talking about. For the Bible has homonyms in it. For example: The bark from Jack's dog could be heard from down the street as he scratched his paws against the bark in desire to capture a squirrel that just climbed up the tree.

Sheol is the realm of the dead in OT context

I agree. I believe that is what I said.

however what you will find is there is a very poor understanding of what happened to you when you die in the OT. And traditional heaven and hell places are absent. Sheol is more of a concept to represent death rather than a literal physical place.

Ever read Daniel 7 where the Son of Man (Jesus) sees the Ancient of Days (God the Father) in Heaven? What about when Isaiah had seen the LORD in a vision sitting on a throne and an angel put a piece of coal over his mouth? Was that not in the Heavenly Temple? Isaiah 14:9 says hell is moved beneath to meet the King of Babylon.

There is no biblical place of the afterlife called "torments" so I'm not sure what you are getting at there, perhaps you mean "Tartarus" (2 Peter 2:4).

You are right. It is a bit of a nickname I have given it (Which I suppose I should drop). But the Rich-man does call this hell, "this place of torment" (Luke 16:28). As for Tartarus: This is a deep area of hell where certain fallen angels are held in chains. It is possible that this deep abyss is probably accessed by something like a worm hole or portal.

Tartarus in greek mythology is the lowest place of Hades where the Titans are chained up. Peter uses the reference to suggest fallen Angels are locked up there. It's a very limited reference and there is little we get from it. Peter May have been contextualizing greek beliefs and it is unclear how this place affects the afterlife of those who perish.

No, Peter was referring to actual fallen angels deep beneath the Earth. Such a truth did not originate in mythology.

Gehenna is a reference of a place for burning garbage outside the city limits, Jesus seems to be using it a common accepted expression for a place of judgement but there is little teaching of what this place actually is. Gehenna is most commonly associated with fire and torment in the NT and if Hades and Gehenna were compared Gehenna comes across as a greater place of torment. The bible does not tell us however that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same places but that is a theory. The Lake of Fire is only mentioned in Rev. And rev. doesn't ever mention the word Gehenna. Hades is mentioned but it is directly contrasted with the Lake of Fire, ie. Rev. 20:14 we see Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, this is called the second death where there is a final judgment of unbelievers.

Matthew 10:28 BLB (Berean Literal Bible) says, "And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

This is obviously speaking about the Lake of Fire because the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" (Which is based on the "First Death").

Scripture does not reveal to us that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Your going to have to expand on this whole idea of an island too because I not aware of such implications. In terms of levels of Hades, as earlier mentioned, Tartarus is the lowest place of hades.

Hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. The Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show (Whereby the Richman is tormented by the heat of it).

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. It says there is a type of "burning" happening there.

Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell below.

Has the perfect come yet? This scripture verse has debatable meaning. I believe the perfect is Jesus and when he comes again we will no longer need the gifts of the Holy Spirit to to fill in our cracks. But that discussion is for another thread.

So we do not know in part? Believers can have all knowledge in this life?

Parables give the audience very concrete concepts but used metaphorically and many times without the audience being aware of this. If we take the parables literally then our mission is about spreading seed and feeding sheep. Certainly parables can give us extra insight and may be using literal concepts but we need to use wisdom with the values and teaching within the parables over the concrete images.

No. Parables are real world examples that show us a spiritual truth or point. For example: The Canaanite woman was able to use a real world example in reply to Jesus and he accepted it. If she just made up some silly fantasy, Jesus would reject what she was saying. Her parable only had validity because it was a truth based in the real world.

We first need to have strong foundation to these concepts before we freely ponder their limits. And we must reconcile why the bible offers us very limited insight into these areas. A statement like "we may sleep briefly in death before crossing over to the realm of the dead in the heart of the Earth" is taking a lot of liberties and demands clear biblical rational for each thought.

I believe I already addressed the matter of sleep vs death in these posts here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-there-be-a-partial-soul-sleep.7912841/#post-68737000

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-there-be-a-partial-soul-sleep.7912841/#post-68735306

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[DamianWarS]

Yes, you are right. The Biblical context determines the meaning of a word. Regardless if one uses a Modern Version or the KJV, one still needs to read the surrounding context to determine what a word is talking about. For the Bible has homonyms in it. For example: The bark from Jack's dog could be heard from down the street as he scratched his paws against the bark in desire to capture a squirrel that just climbed up the tree.-

Hell-Sheol is not a homonym for Hell-Hades, or Hell-Gehenna, it's an ambiguous translation and the word promotes poor understanding of biblical context.

Ever read Daniel 7 where the Son of Man (Jesus) sees the Ancient of Days (God the Father) in Heaven? What about when Isaiah had seen the LORD in a vision sitting on a throne and an angel put a piece of coal over his mouth? Was that not in the Heavenly Temple? Isaiah 14:9 says hell is moved beneath to meet the King of Babylon.-

I said the OT has a poor understanding of the afterlife but how does that relate to Daniel 7? A description of the Son of Man and Ancient of Days in heaven doesn't help a follower of Yahweh, using the OT as their only source of scripture, with where they go when they die. In fact modern Judaism still has an undeveloped dogma of the afterlife. They use the OT as their source of scripture and it just isn't clear.

Now Isaiah doesn't say "hell is moved..." He says "Sheol is moved..." This is why it is important to use a more specific vocabulary when referring to biblical context. The text is a poetic reference to say that the wicked will die like everyone else. There is no teaching in this passage about a place of torment where the wicked go when they die. I'm not saying I don't believe in such a place I just know the OT is an irresponsible place to look for definition on the place.

You are right. It is a bit of a nickname I have given it (Which I suppose I should drop). But the Rich-man does call this hell, "this place of torment" (Luke 16:28). As for Tartarus: This is a deep area of hell where certain fallen angels are held in chains. It is possible that this deep abyss is probably accessed by something like a worm hole or portal.

No, Peter was referring to actual fallen angels deep beneath the Earth. Such a truth did not originate in mythology.

Tartarus predates the NT and it is well establish in Greek mythology as a place for the uber wicked and where the Titans are locked up (see the Iliad). So when Peter uses this word the greek context of it was already established and known. It is unclear why he chose the word but it does appear in Pseudepigraphal jewish texts that also says it is a place where fallen angels are locked up. This text also predates the NT but the greek mythology still predates the jewish text. The reference is casual and really gives us more questions than answers so doesn't help us a lot with details of the afterlife.

Matthew 10:28 BLB (Berean Literal Bible) says, "And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

This is obviously speaking about the Lake of Fire because the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" (Which is based on the "First Death").

I would agree that with the information the bible tells us there seems to be 2 places of punishment for the afterlife, Hades and the Lake of Fire/Gehenna. Hebrew is an extremely concrete language where Greek is an extremely abstract language. Gehenna is a concrete reference of an actual physical place and it was associated with rott, vermin and fire. Where the lake of fire is a more abstract reference so it does make sense to see these places as the same with an important footnote that the bible doesn't actually reveal this directly.

Hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. The Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show (Whereby the Richman is tormented by the heat of it).

Using a parable as a key point in determining that hell is an island in the lake of fire is a poor foundation. Revelation is the only book that identifies the lake of fire, it is written in a greek abstract style and is extremely alagorical/symbolic. So to take a reference form an allegorical book then combine it with a parable may make for a pretty story but can't be trusted.

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. It says there is a type of "burning" happening there.

Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell below.

Not "Hell" but "Sheol". The point of the passage is to indicate the intensity of the anger not a description of the afterlife. Do you believe when God gets angry he turns the furnace up in hell?

That whole animal interpretation has no biblical bases to support a island in the lake of fire

So we do not know in part? Believers can have all knowledge in this life?

Some people believe the 1 Cor 13 passage is referring to the completion of the canon or the establishment of the church so some believe we no longer "know in part". I don't and I think the passage is taking about the second coming of Christ, in short we currently know in part

No. Parables are real world examples that show us a spiritual truth or point. For example: The Canaanite woman was able to use a real world example in reply to Jesus and he accepted it. If she just made up some silly fantasy, Jesus would reject what she was saying. Her parable only had validity because it was a truth based in the real world.

I said parable are concrete images, you say real world examples... well those two things are the same. Parables have truth in the images in the story, that story then leads us to a greater truth that is beyond the images in the parable. The parable typically is an easier way of understanding the actual reality. Finding a lost coin is an easy story to imagine and relate to but in reality the kingdom of heaven has nothing to do with finding lost coins. Thinking of "hell" as a place of fire and torment is possible enough to imagine because we know what getting burnt feels like. But in reality hell may have nothing to do with fire or a lake or an island, but possibly something much greater.

I believe I already addressed the matter of sleep vs death in these posts here.

Sorry I'm not interested in reading through your old posts. It seems like you have already asked this question anyway so why do it again?

 

[ewq1938]

For me the metaphorical interpretation of Jesus saying that the little girl sleepeth as equalling death does not make sense. Because Jesus makes a distinction between death and sleep. He says she is not dead but she sleepeth.

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In that case she was sleeping literally. In other cases, the term "sleep" does in fact mean dead.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In that case she was sleeping literally. In other cases, th6e term "sleep" does in fact mean dead.

Then why did they do this?

"And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead." (Luke 8:53).

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[ewq1938]

Then why did they do this?

"And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead." (Luke 8:53).

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There are only two possibilities. Either she had died and Christ resurrected her back to life, and she was then sleeping. Or, they thought she had died but was in a deep coma/sleep and Christ healed her. Either way, when Christ said she was sleeping she was not dead but sleeping.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are only two possibilities. Either she had died and Christ resurrected her back to life, and she was then sleeping. Or, they thought she had died but was in a deep coma/sleep and Christ healed her. Either way, when Christ said she was sleeping she was not dead but sleeping.

Interesting. I like the way you think. Outside the box. But then there is the other similar passage to contend with involving Lazarus, though.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Check out what I said on Lazarus here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-there-be-a-partial-soul-sleep.7912841/#post-68737000

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[ewq1938]

Interesting. I like the way you think. Outside the box. But then there is the other similar passage to contend with involving Lazarus, though.


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Thanks, I try to do just that.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Joh 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
Joh 11:16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
Joh 11:17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
Joh 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
Joh 11:19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Joh 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Joh 11:28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
Joh 11:29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
Joh 11:30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
Joh 11:31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
Joh 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
Joh 11:34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
Joh 11:35 Jesus wept.
Joh 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
Joh 11:37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
Joh 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Joh 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Joh 11:45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.


In this case, Lazarus was literally dead, for 4 days. When Christ said he slept, that is a well known figure of speech that means dead.

So with the maiden, they said she was dead and Christ said no she's sleeping.
With Lazarus, they said he was dead and Christ said he was sleeping but meant he was dead: Howbeit Jesus spake of his death, Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead..

So, same words used but the meaning is different in each example.

 

[ewq1938]

Check out what I said on Lazarus here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-there-be-a-partial-soul-sleep.7912841/#post-68737000

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I had read it but I don't believe in soul sleep. The dead in literal graves are dead and know nothing, but the former souls which were in those dead bodies are fully awake and alive whether in Hades or in heaven. I have never found anything which suggests ones soul or spirit is asleep and unaware of things after physical death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I had read it but I don't believe in soul sleep. The dead in literal graves are dead and know nothing, but the former souls which were in those dead bodies are fully awake and alive whether in Hades or in heaven. I have never found anything which suggests ones soul or spirit is asleep and unaware of things after physical death.

I am not proposing the traditional concept of soul sleep where one is not aware of nothing in the after life at any point. It is merely a brief or short time of unconsciousness before they cross over. Today, people die and come back to life and do not remember anything about the afterlife. I believe one possibility is that they had not crossed over yet. In other words, think of it as a brief moment of unawareness before one goes to paradise or hades.


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[ewq1938]

I am not proposing an extended soul sleep or anything in the traditional sense. It is merely a temporary form of unconsciousness before they cross over. Today, people die and come back to life and do not remember anything about the afterlife. I believe one possibility is that they had not crossed over yet. In other words, think of it as a brief moment of unawareness before one goes to paradise or hades.


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Hard to trust those accounts because they revived. Perhaps they weren't allowed to remember and then there are accounts where they are fully awake and see stuff they remember. I prefer to use biblical evidence and I see nothing for souls being asleep. There are plenty of verses that show souls awake and alert which contradicts any form of soul sleep.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hard to trust those accounts because they revived. Perhaps they weren't allowed to remember and then there are accounts where they are fully awake and see stuff they remember. I prefer to use biblical evidence and I see nothing for souls being asleep. There are plenty of verses that show souls awake and alert which contradicts any form of soul sleep.

But Jesus illustrates spiritual truth by way of real world examples. There used to be a Temple that God had the Israelites build. This is a parallel of the Heavenly Temple. In other words, it would be like traveling to another dimension (where things may appear different) and making an assumption about that dimension based on the limited information that you were given by the short time that you were there. For example: If you seen the skies were green when you arrived, you might assume the skies are always green in that dimension when they could change in color at a later time. The point is that we do not know ALL of what happens in the after-life. For me, I see two places in Scripture where it gives us a clue so as to understand that NOBODY is allowed to tell us about paradise or hades. It's because once you cross over. That's it. Yes, I believe everyone will be conscious in the after-life at some point. But I am just not sure it is immediate, though. I am given bread crumbs from Jesus in two places that "sleep" is a type of physical death where the spirit has not crossed over whereby they would later be conscious about the land of the dead.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Today, people are having all kinds of false visions of heaven and hell. But if I am correct in my understanding on these two passages in Scripture, I believe the Bible is saying not to trust them because once you cross over from the unconscious state to the actual realm of the dead whereby one would be conscious, then one cannot come back to life so as to tell about it.


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[Bible Highlighter]

For people sleep in the real world. Why not to some capacity in the after-life?


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