Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

Ratjaws

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I don't just accept something in the Bible just because the church says it is true. Granted, there are many things I do accept, like the Trinity and that the Earth was created in six literal 24 hour days. However, I strive to honor the Word of God in what it plainly says. I also try to make sense out of things. Granted, I realize there are some things you cannot explain like the miracles of God. While many have probably have said the same thing, tradition is hard to break. It is not easy to go against the grain and or to plow new ground.

I believe in a literal hell. The story of Lazarus and the Richman cannot be anything but a true narrative. For Jesus did not tell stories that were not based in reality. All his parables were set in the real world. Most churches teach Eternal Concious Torment or that the wicked will burn in hell and also burn for all eternity in the Lake of Fire (Which is overkill and goes way beyond what the crime actually calls for).

However, after close examination of the Scriptures, I believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is also a real place but nobody is tortured in any flames there (like the popular movies and books of today like to promote). For Lazarus could not have carried on a normal conversation with anyone if he was being engulfed in flames. People normally cannot talk to you without screaming if they are being held down in a fire. This is important to understand because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. His parables). Anyways, the belief that there is a literal hell and the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire is called "Dualistic Conditionalism." This is what I believe the Scriptures plainly teach.

Lately, God has been calling it upon my heart to answer the question as to the length of time people spend consciously in Hell. How can someone who only sinned for a couple of years be incarcerated for thousands of years in a horrible place? I said to myself that time must operate differently there. But there is no evidence of Scripture for this. However, one possiblity that would resolve the problem of men being punished beyond the crimes they committed in hell would be the topic of "soul sleep." But there are just too many passages that show how others are conscious in the after-life. Yet, when I read how Jesus was laughed at when he said that the girl was sleeping and not dead, I find that a metaphorical interpretation to be unsettling. Yet, I do not agree with Soul Sleep's proponents and how they use certain verses in the Psalms as if it was a declaration of soul sleep, either (Like saying we do not have thoughts after death). Such verses are clearly speaking to make a metaphorical point and it is not one that speaks of the after-life per say. So for now, I am considering a partial soul sleep as being a possibilty. It makes sense. But I need to pray about it a lot and search the Scriptures for a long while before even considering such a thing as being remotely true.

So what soul sleep passages do you think would convince me?


....
Jason,
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2Pet. 1:20-21 NIV)

"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2Pet. 3:16 NIV)

It looks to me that you've fallen prey to the heresy of private interpretation. I mean you are interpreting sacred scripture that was given to all of us in the Church, by Christ through the apostles and prophets, apart from that same Church's understanding. Don't you know it was men of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church who preserved God's Word by copying scrolls for centuries until Guttenberg (a Catholic himself) gave us the first printed version? In fact those bibles that were chained in many churches years ago were so in order to protect God's Word from being trivialized and stolen. It was not as rumor has it that the Church was trying to keep the bible from the average person. In fact don't you know that St. Paul told St. Timothy to "guard the good deposit?" St. Timothy being a deacon in the early Church.

You claim you "...don't just accept something in the Bible just because the church says it is true," yet it is the only source of infallible interpretation. You saw off the very limb you sit on so-to-speak by disavowing yourself of the Church's constant teaching! You do this as if Christ's words to St. Peter mean nothing: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." (Matt. 16:18 NIV) Christ put St. Peter in the highest office of His Church in order to protect God's Word throughout all time and it is not you or I that is protected from error, but Christ's Church.

So while you speculate as to whether soul sleep is an acceptable doctrine the Church has already settled this long ago. Today we find non-Christian cults holding to this non-Christian idea that is also philosophically unsound. Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and the Latter Day Saints Church of Christ or Mormon Church are to name the most prominent of these heretical groups.

"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings (more accurately "Traditions" in the Greek) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." (2Thes. 2:15 NIV)

You also seem too have banished literal hell fire from the Christian understanding yet both oral and written Tradition carry it as dogma never to be lost. Pope John Paul II once said that heaven is more than a place, meaning not that it was not a place but to put emphasis on the fact that it is to be in relationship with God. He was emphasizing the spiritual without damning the physical which you seem to have done by calling suspect the Church's teaching on literal burning in hell. How exactly do you judge the punishment to be worse than the crime when our sin is against a being who is infinite? How can our soul be punished without our body being involved (hence fire in hell) that participated in the sin? Don't you know our resurrected body will reflect our life here on earth by participating in our greater damnation in hell or greater glory in heaven?

Your struggle is not uncommon to Christians, but will end once you see the wisdom of Christ who instituted a Church so that every mother trying to keep her home and children safe, need not spend her precious, but limited time, trying to figure out what this or that scripture meant. Christians separated from the Church do spend a great deal of their time trying to reinvent the wheel, so-to-speak, as they attempt to interpret sacred scripture which is not their vocation. On the contrary, the Church was charged with teaching, governing and sanctifying the faithful and, thanks be to God! ...and the faithful to live out their life marrying and giving in marriage, so as to increase the flock. This domestic Church we call family has been given the task of loving and cooperating with God in creating new human life. God wants us all to grow in Christ to a maturity that passes on the baton of marriage and family life. Pope Paul VI called this meaning of marriage the unitive and procreative aspects. Because God loves humanity and wants us to be with Him in heaven, He expects most of us to work with the Holy Spirit by generating new life within the sacred bond of matrimony. St. Paul even tells us sinners that we who are a little lower than the angels will be judging them in the resurrection, meaning God literally died for our love which combined with grace makes us fit for heaven.

So I encourage you to come back to the center of the Christian faith and embrace the Church's centuries old constant teaching. You will discover a freedom you never knew, that many non-Christians know in fact, who hold fast to God's plan for marriage without knowing it. My family knows the fruits of Christian marriage as us six kids now take care of our mother who is dying a little more every day, and that much closer to her reward in heaven. My father and mother were faithful to each other for 57 years until my dad passed on into the next life, where he will not endure the fires of eternal hell, but for a short time be purified in purgatory, then share an eternity in heaven, in a glorified body that reflects what he gave up here on earth for God and his family; only to be with God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit, as well as the family he faithfully took care of for God.

You see this is the unspoken core of the Christian faith, which you and your followers miss, as you fumble around outside Christ's Church. So you see the bible is not our authority (only a person can hold authority; from the Latin root: author, auctor, to increase) but the Church who gave us the bible is our authority. If you spend your time chasing strange doctrines you will miss authentic Christian teaching. If you humor non-Christian doctrine to the detriment of Church teaching you will eventually succumb to their unorthodox ways. You will take on their misconceived ideas of human sexuality and live like the pagans who don't see the sanctity of human life and procreation. Our society has fallen into a sexual perversity where an "anything goes" culture mocks traditional morality, and denies God new human persons to be with Him in heaven. Even St. Paul saw this when he pointed out how being with a prostitute violates a spiritual bond, and that we participate in Christ even in our sexual activity, which by the way was designed and is sanctioned by God!
 
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First, how can one know if they have not fallen prey to private interpretation? Well, there are several ways to make sure. Is one of them to line up with a certain group of believers you think are of God? No. Men are still fallible. So how can we not fall prey to private interpretation?

(a) Pray (Ask God to show you).
(b) Look at the context.
(c) Look at other verses in other parts of Scripture that say the same thing (Cross references).
(d) Does the verse or passage line up with God's goodness or morality?
(e) Look at what other believer's say.
(f) Look at the keywords and see how they are used elsewhere.​

Second, if a text does not specifically state a truth, then it does not exist. For example: This is one of the many problems that I have with Catholicism (And I mean... many). One such problem, is that they believe many religious practices that are not specifically stated in Scripture.

Third, as for talking about purgatory: Well, there is no such thing as purgatory. The Bible does not teach that.

Four, you might be able to find 4-5 verses that suggest Eternal Conscious Torment, but there are a ton of verses that actually teach that the wicked will be destroyed (i.e. Conditional Immortality). You will also never be able to explain the goodness behind Eternal Conscious Torment, either.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.


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Paul outright states the rapture happens after the second coming and after the resurrection and we know both of those happen after the tribulation so a pre-trib rapture is scripturally impossible else Paul is a false prophet.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)


Your point about us not knowing the hour is meaningless because we know the season, even the day of his return when certain events take place.

Paul even wrote that the second coming will not happen until certain things happen:

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

That's the Antichrist and he does in the tribulation and how the second coming destroys him. This is Paul's anti pretrib teaching. The pre-trib doctrine came about from misunderstanding Paul's first letter so he wrote this second letter to admonish them.

Jesus says we will not know the hour of his return.


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ewq1938

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Jesus says we will not know the hour of his return.


I know but we can know the DAY of his return by the fulfillment of certain events. When the two prophets rise from the dead and ascend into heaven, we know Christ is returning that day, Rev 11.
 
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I know but we can know the DAY of his return by the fulfillment of certain events. When the two prophets rise from the dead and ascend into heaven, we know Christ is returning that day, Rev 11.
And you are wrong, my friend. Jesus also says we will not know the day, too.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36).

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ewq1938

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And you are wrong, my friend. Jesus also says we will not know the day, too.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36).

...

We don't know it now but when certain events happen we will at that time know the day.
 
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We don't know it now but when certain events happen we will at that time know the day.
That still be a violation of the words of Jesus in that verse, though. You have an idea of a day of when it will happen by certain events happening.

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ewq1938

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That still be a violation of the words of Jesus in that verse, though. You have an idea of a day of when it will happen by certain events happening.

...


All he said is no one knew the day or hour. It is still true today but when the right events happen, we will know the day for sure. You are misreading his words to include more than what he said.
 
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lol, one of us definitely isn't getting it...that's a true statement!

Here is the thing. If your right, I will be like,

"Okay, no big loss, I guess I need to hit the scriptures in my understanding on Eschatology a little better."​

But if I am right, you take the chance on going thru the tribulation when you didn't have to; And trust me, you really don't to go thru such a thing.


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Here is the thing. If your right, I will be like,

"Okay, no big loss, I guess I need to hit the scriptures in my understanding on Eschatology a little better."​

But if I am right, you take the chance on going thru the tribulation when you didn't have to; And trust me, you really don't to go thru such a thing.


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Actually not quite. If I am right, you have a very serious likely hood to fall for the deception the AC brings (he claims to be God) all he has to do is replicate or falsify some type of rapture event and he will have all those who believe in a pre-trib rapture.

If you accept post-trib and the rapture actually happens before the trib you will still be raptured because you are still a faithful Christian.

Post-trib is not only the soundest and safest doctrine, it also is the only one promoted by scripture. Paul specifically states the rapture happens after the second coming and resurrection.
 
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Actually not quite. If I am right, you have a very serious likely hood to fall for the deception the AC brings (he claims to be God) all he has to do is replicate or falsify some type of rapture event and he will have all those who believe in a pre-trib rapture.

If you accept post-trib and the rapture actually happens before the trib you will still be raptured because you are still a faithful Christian.

Post-trib is not only the soundest and safest doctrine, it also is the only one promoted by scripture. Paul specifically states the rapture happens after the second coming and resurrection.

No, my friend. I am not going to fall for any Anti-Christ because I know that Jesus will return in the same way that He left. Meaning, Jesus left by way of ascending up in front of many witnesses. Jesus will return in the same way. For the Scriptures say, every eye shall see Him when He returns. So I will not trust any man who claims to be Christ because I know that Jesus will be returning in such a way where everyone will see Him.


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No, my friend. I am not going to fall for any Anti-Christ because I know that Jesus will return in the same way that He left. Meaning, Jesus left by way of ascending up in front of many witnesses. Jesus will return in the same way.

Guess what? The AC knows that also. I believe he will counterfeit the second coming and claim to be Jesus and have a rapture experience all ready for people.


For the Scriptures say, every eye shall see Him when He returns. So I will not trust any man who claims to be Christ because I know that Jesus will be returning in such a way where everyone will see Him.

That's not good enough though.
 
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Guess what? The AC knows that also. I believe he will counterfeit the second coming and claim to be Jesus and have a rapture experience all ready for people.

That's not good enough though.
So you don't believe Christ's 2nd Coming is where He will visibly be seen by everyone alive coming down from out of the clouds on a white horse?


...
 
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So you don't believe Christ's 2nd Coming is where He will visibly be seen by everyone alive coming down from out of the clouds on a white horse?


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Of course but what does that have to do with the coming of the Antichrist? The whole world will be seeing him as well. You aren't taking this seriously enough....the Antichrist will claim to be God, and since Jesus is God he could claim to be Jesus. Jesus even warned of that. If he goes that far to deceive, it isn't much to think he might fake a rapture to fool people.
 
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Of course but what does that have to do with the coming of the Antichrist? The whole world will be seeing him as well. You aren't taking this seriously enough....the Antichrist will claim to be God, and since Jesus is God he could claim to be Jesus. Jesus even warned of that. If he goes that far to deceive, it isn't much to think he might fake a rapture to fool people.
I don't think you understand my position or the position of other Pre-Trib Rapture believers. We believe Christ's 2nd Coming only involves Him coming down out the clouds where every eye will see Him. Are their believers who don't know their Bible? Yes, I imagine so. But these are new believers or believers who are still on the spiritual milk of the Word.

As for saying the Pre-Rapture is a deception: I would be careful in saying that. If it turns out you are wrong (and I would bet my very life on it that you are), then you will be calling that which is good as evil and that is a very dangerous thing to do with God.

I mean, do you need Biblical evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture or are you just interested in pushing what you believe to be is right? I think the smart thing to do is to examine all of them objectively. I know I did.


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I don't think you understand my position or the position of other Pre-Trib Rapture believers. We believe Christ's 2nd Coming only involves Him coming down out the clouds where every eye will see Him.

Everyone understands that about pre-trib. I am showing you the negative aspect of such a belief...specifically that Jesus can just show up at any moment.



As for saying the Pre-Rapture is a deception: I would be careful in saying that. If it turns out you are wrong (and I would bet my very life on it that you are), then you will be calling that which is good as evil and that is a very dangerous thing to do with God.

It is deception. Paul specifically taught against it in 2nd Thess. Because they had misunderstood him in his first letter.


I mean, do you need Biblical evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture or are you just interested in pushing what you believe to be is right?

There is no biblical evidence for a pre-trib rapture. Everything shows it to be a serious doctrinal error.



1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
 
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