Could Orthodox Churches Recognize The Pope?

[tz620q]

I'm so sorry that happened.

I feel badly with him being a deacon, but I can't comment on that. That just isn't the way we are taught to think.

Certainly, there are some here and there (mainly fairly new converts who seem to get most of their information from books and online, maybe without the benefit of being able to discuss what they are reading) and that minority seems to be more vocal than their numbers and it makes me cringe how they may be running people away from Christianity altogether and the Church in particular. Lord have mercy. I fear sometimes some little thing I say could stumble someone - I can be very foolish. And you never know how someone will take something.

But what you said grieves me a lot. I am sorry.

You have my prayers, and I will pray for the person who said those things too. It seems maybe he needs prayer as well.

But I really don't think it was actually you. You never know - maybe he was very hurt over a close family member and worried about them because of something else entirely involving that person and Catholicism, or something on that level, and just reacting out of his hurt.

I am sorry though. God be with you.

Thank you, beloved of God. You cannot know how your humility has touched this wound and helped to heal it.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

From my understanding the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way except their recognition of the Bishop of Rome's primacy as Orthodoxy did until the Schism. Are they also heretics? I wanted to consider, in your view, will our Eastern brothers be joining us in hell?

It would be like if a Catholic diocese broke away from Rome to join the Lutheran Church, but the Lutherans let them keep Romish worship and doctrines.

But Eastern Catholics, despite being cosmetically like us, are really not like us, mystically. You can tell this, because the most direct approach to Orthodox spirituality, is monasticism (even if you aren't a monk).

"In addition with running the Jampot, they host musical events such as piano recitals and concerts featuring classical guitar, many of which are open to the public to help people experience the monastery."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/29/michigan-monks-holy-transfiguration-skete_n_7173174.html

That is not appropriate at all, monasteries are supposed to be extremely quiet to prevent distraction. Only a cappella, polyphonic hymns are permitted. Monasteries are places of pilgrimage, but not tourist attractions.

We don't claim to know who is going to Gehenna.

 

[Anhelyna]

And one monastery may well be the exception to the rule !

 

[rturner76]

It is not our place to usurp Christ's judgement of who will be condemned.

Saying that some of Rome's doctrines are heresies does NOT equal saying that everyone in communion with Rome will be condemned.

Incidentally, we also do not say that everyone in communion in Orthodoxy will necessarily "be saved".

Firstly we don't pass judgement on anyone's salvation, and secondly we don't equate salvation absolutely with communion.

But because Orthodoxy and Rome have important differences in doctrines, it is almost a given that we view some of them as heresies. I suspect that is true of Rome as well.

It is refreshing to hear the response that basically it is not up to us to judge from pretty much all the posters that have responded to my comment. So many times you hear from certain denominations or I should say certain people rather that this or that person deserves heaven or hell. It seems to be Orthodox culture to not go there.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

ahh thats so sad.
Hostility and derogatory attitudes towards other Christians be that heretics or not are emotions that keeps us from sainthood.

One may look at other churches glasses as half full as far as devine revelation and truth concerns that a obvious fact, but to outright dismiss them as departed Brothers and sisters in Christ reminds me of some sort of elitism and a desire for uniquity that doesnt serve either Christ nor his Church.

I Guess ive been lucky in my encounters With my Orthodox brethren then.
Most Orthodox clergy that Ive been in touch With aswell as laymen and women have shown great Hospitality and love towards me as catholic and towards our Church.

I don't really bear a grudge against Catholics in general, since they tend to be raised in the faith. The bishops and cardinals, though, I see as enemies of the faith, due to Vatican II and the efforts they seem to continually make to modernize things. Cardinal Robert Sarah is pretty cool, though.

 

[ArmyMatt]

From my understanding the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way except their recognition of the Bishop of Rome's primacy as Orthodoxy did until the Schism. Are they also heretics? I wanted to consider, in your view, will our Eastern brothers be joining us in hell?

are they as heretical? yes. and please don't presume you know our eschatology please. no one said that any RC will end up in hell by default.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That being said doctrinal disagreements should never be an excuse to acting hostile toward those who believe differently.

well, there should be no hostility toward any one at all.

If both parties believe what they do and hold to their position one should strive towards a mutual respect and if possible friendship.

which is fine and great, but if we (or you) believe that you have the fullness of the faith, we should be trying to convert the other. but having more than a few Catholic friends, I have no issues with being on the same page when it comes to things like friendship or causes we are on the same page with. it just cannot remain there.

I think Bartholomew leads perfectly by example.
He is not giving up his faith, but yet he find it in himself to be graceful towards others and show of some true beautiful orthodox love for his neighbors.

in many ways I agree, but personally I think His All Holiness takes things too far.

 

[prodromos]

From my understanding the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way except their recognition of the Bishop of Rome's primacy as Orthodoxy did until the Schism. Are they also heretics? I wanted to consider, in your view, will our Eastern brothers be joining us in hell?

Some Eastern Catholics are in a very strange place. Many will claim that they are not required to believe a number of Rome's doctrines (see some of Monk Brendan's posts) which are not consistent with Orthodox belief, but finding official Church documents stating as much has proved a fruitless exercise. It is very strange to be allowed to believe things contrary to the doctrines of Rome, just as long as you place yourself under the Pope's authority. It is a position you will find scant support for in the first millenium.

 

[rturner76]

are they as heretical? yes. and please don't presume you know our eschatology please. no one said that any RC will end up in hell by default.

Ok I thought you were in agreement on just about everything and I apologize for the snide remark, I have been told where my destination will be by a few Protestants and I sometimes automatically put my guard up. I have found that since I posed this question more than a couple of my separated brethren humbly decline comment on someone else's spiritual condition.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you, beloved of God. You cannot know how your humility has touched this wound and helped to heal it.

I think maybe you are too kind concerning me - it's the teaching of the Church, at any rate. But I don't want to lessen any benefit you receive, so on that count I will say glory to God!

I pray the wound will be fully healed, and no more inflicted on any other soul in the same way, through the mercy and grace of God.



(Thank you for your kindness in posting this as well ... it does touch me and makes me glad, and I suppose that's something I need right now as well. Thank you, and be blessed!)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ok I thought you were in agreement on just about everything and I apologize for the snide remark, I have been told where my destination will be by a few Protestants and I sometimes automatically put my guard up. I have found that since I posed this question more than a couple of my separated brethren humbly decline comment on someone else's spiritual condition.

it is all good, been told the same thing myself by more than a handful of Protestants (and I thought that to be honest when I was Protestant)

 

[Lukaris]

Thank you for answering my open question Army.
The reason I asked it is because I sense a more hostile take on Rome in here than I've ever experienced IRL.

If many in here are ex protestants it's not unlikely that some of you carry some of the resentment towards Rome with you from your past.

I know Ive kept some of my attitudes from my time as a protestant.

I meant no offense towards Catholics or Protestant Christians in my earlier post. Personally I find aspects of western Christianity perplexing & just want to avoid them. Aspects of Catholicism like the massa damnata, veneration of the sacred heart, purgatory etc. Aspects within the wide variations of Protestantism like post trib, pre trib, raptures, once & always saved, universalism, supralapsarianism etc. etc. ....?????

I also realize there are great western Christians like Francis of Assisi, Mother Theresa, John & Charles Wesley, etc. etc. while I am just a wretched sinner.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Mm yeah but then they wouldn't pronounce churches anathema or heretic right? Is that not kind of saying where the church isn't?

Modern ecumenical dialogue is pointless between Rome and Orthodoxy. Why would they be close whenever at Lyon II and in Pope Eugenius's Papal Bull, 'Cantate Domino', the Eastern Orthodox Church is condemned? Both sides have anathematised one another unalterably. The true condition is the embrace of the other's religion en masse. Since that plainly isn't likely to occur further ecumenical 'dialogue' is not only fruitless but impossible.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

From my understanding the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way except their recognition of the Bishop of Rome's primacy as Orthodoxy did until the Schism.

Your understanding is false. The Filioque and Vatican I Papal Supremacy, and the Satisfaction theory of Atonement are heretical according to Eastern Orthodoxy. Indulgences and Purgatory are also rejected as well. And the Immaculate Conception. All these are refuted by the Eastern Orthodox.

Are they also heretics?

According to Eastern Orthodoxy, yes.

I wanted to consider, in your view, will our Eastern brothers be joining us in hell?

That is for God to judge, not I. Let one be contrite, penitent, and strive to embrace the Universal, Apostolic Christian Faith of the Fathers.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The Eastern Catholics I have asked about it (including a very extensive discussion with an Eastern Catholic priest) had me come away with the understanding that they actually reject everything about western Catholicism that the Orthodox reject.

How they can be in communion with Rome while rejecting required doctrines makes no sense to me, but I won't put them on the spot by asking, as it's not a position I would want to be in. It seems very difficult.

But the ones I have talked to are essentially Orthodox in their doctrines. They seem like any of us except under a schismed Bishop who they don't actually agree with or correct.

 

[Anhelyna]

Oh -Anastasia - I agree with everything there you have said

You should see me trying to explain to a Latin Catholic that we do not hold to the Sunday 'Obligation' - yes - we should go to Church - not because we HAVE to but because we WANT to . We know that we should go to give thanks to God Who made us - but if we can't go - then there are options - my Parish doesn't have Vespers - so I can't go to that. If our little Mission Liturgy [ once /month] is cancelled at 1pm - and it should start at 3pm - then I will take , as I have been blessed to do , a Readers Service of Hours and Typica with everyone who comes, and that does satisfy the requirement to give thanks to Him Who made us. If something prevents my cross-country trip then I'll either go Orthodox [ where I cannot Approach the Chalice ] or I'll stay home and take Hours and Typica.

I'm lucky - and I do have good friends who are Orthodox priests and yes we do talk about these things and we respect each others' beliefs and traditions [Upper and Lower case 't' ] and both have some understanding from where I'm coming - BTW both priests are converts

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Even as a Catholic, if you haven't a Sunday liturgy available to attend, the obligation of going to Mass ceases to bind. The Church does not and cannot bind us to the impossible or non-feasible.

 

[Anhelyna]

Virgil - that I know very very well - but going to Mass when the Readings etc do not co-incide [ I'm on the Julian Calendar ] is a very very schizophrenic experience - believe me. Just imagine I'm in the Great Fast and the Latins are post Easter - it is really difficult.

As the Orthodox Communities near me are also Julian Calendar- I gain spiritual nourishment there. Both priests there welcome me and know I know exactly the boundaries

 

[JM]

The more I learn the more I understand just how wide the cavern is between Eastern Orthodoxy and Romanism.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The more I learn the more I understand just how wide the cavern is between Eastern Orthodoxy and Romanism.

It really is ...