Could Orthodox Churches Recognize The Pope?

[Constantine the Sinner]

Thank you for answering my open question Army.
The reason I asked it is because I sense a more hostile take on Rome in here than I've ever experienced IRL.

If many in here are ex protestants it's not unlikely that some of you carry some of the resentment towards Rome with you from your past.

I know Ive kept some of my attitudes from my time as a protestant.

There is plenty of hostility toward Rome among the Orthodox who aren't converts. Dostoevsky considered Rome Satanic, and you can see how well the Pope's recent reception went in Georgia--the Patriarch of Georgia outright forbade his flock from praying with the Pope. The feelings depend on the person, but most Orthodox don't feel positively toward the Pope, even if they're not venomous. Don't forget the Orthodox were militarily occupied by Catholics, both in Byzantium and in Russia, with forced conversions in both cases.

 

[rturner76]

I have no ill will toward Rome, but they are a heretical body. we do Rome no service pretending we are close when we really are not.

I think there are some differing philosophies but to say Rome is overall Heretical I think is unfair.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think there are some differing philosophies but to say Rome is overall Heretical I think is unfair.

from our POV, Rome is anathema, and will be until they return to the Church. this is what our saints say.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I think there are some differing philosophies but to say Rome is overall Heretical I think is unfair.

The Filioque and Papism are both officially heresies to us, and the two behind the schism. A lot more heresies since the schism have been added.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

There is plenty of hostility toward Rome among the Orthodox who aren't converts. Dostoevsky considered Rome Satanic, and you can see how well the Pope's recent reception went in Georgia--the Patriarch of Georgia outright forbade his flock from praying with the Pope. The feelings depend on the person, but most Orthodox don't feel positively toward the Pope, even if they're not venomous. Don't forget the Orthodox were militarily occupied by Catholics, both in Byzantium and in Russia, with forced conversions in both cases.

ahh thats so sad.
Hostility and derogatory attitudes towards other Christians be that heretics or not are emotions that keeps us from sainthood.

One may look at other churches glasses as half full as far as devine revelation and truth concerns that a obvious fact, but to outright dismiss them as departed Brothers and sisters in Christ reminds me of some sort of elitism and a desire for uniquity that doesnt serve either Christ nor his Church.

I Guess ive been lucky in my encounters With my Orthodox brethren then.
Most Orthodox clergy that Ive been in touch With aswell as laymen and women have shown great Hospitality and love towards me as catholic and towards our Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

One may look at other churches glasses as half full as far as devine revelation and truth concerns that a obvious fact, but to outright dismiss them as departed Brothers and sisters in Christ reminds me of some sort of elitism and a desire for uniquity that doesnt serve either Christ nor his Church.

but it does. ecumenical dialogue is only great if the party's involved know where they stand. we cannot ignore the saints of our Church that say Rome is in heresy simply because we want to be nice. that may be nice, but that is not loving. and to be fair, Rome has the same (2 Lyons condemns us).

 

[rturner76]

from our POV, Rome is anathema, and will be until they return to the Church. this is what our saints say.

The Filioque and Papism are both officially heresies to us, and the two behind the schism. A lot more heresies since the schism have been added.

From my understanding the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way except their recognition of the Bishop of Rome's primacy as Orthodoxy did until the Schism. Are they also heretics? I wanted to consider, in your view, will our Eastern brothers be joining us in hell?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

From my understanding the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way except their recognition of the Bishop of Rome's primacy as Orthodoxy did until the Schism. Are they also heretics? I wanted to consider, in your view, will our Eastern brothers be joining us in hell?

"We know where the church is, not where it isn't"

Thats the official position of the Holy Orthodox Church.

 

[rturner76]

"We know where the church is, not where it isn't"

Thats the official position of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Mm yeah but then they wouldn't pronounce churches anathema or heretic right? Is that not kind of saying where the church isn't?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Mm yeah but then they wouldn't pronounce churches anathema or heretic right? Is that not kind of saying where the church isn't?

While I'm not orthodox myself I think the answer lays within the sentence.
Since they know where the church is that may point out to others where they differ from the true doctrine, but that's not the same as saying that the know where the church isn't.
I mean the grace of God may and I believe it does in many cases exceed the doors of the church.

There are various degrees of heresy aswell as various degrees of consent and knowledge.
Theologians are often more guilty than laymen cause they know better than embracing heresy whereby laymen often are following their church more blindly so to say.

Long story short (sorry for my rant) there can and there is one true church with one true doctrine, but that doesn't necessarily limit the grace of God to said church.
God May very well save people outside the church aswrll.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Official Anathemas are forwarded towards clergy not laymen.

There is a huge difference between heresy and following a heretical tradition and being a heretic with a capitol H.

The latter is for people who outright reject the truth.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

but it does. ecumenical dialogue is only great if the party's involved know where they stand. we cannot ignore the saints of our Church that say Rome is in heresy simply because we want to be nice. that may be nice, but that is not loving. and to be fair, Rome has the same (2 Lyons condemns us).

Yes I understand and as Catholic I wholeheartedly support the right of the Orthodox Church to believe what she believes.
That being said doctrinal disagreements should never be an excuse to acting hostile toward those who believe differently.

If both parties believe what they do and hold to their position one should strive towards a mutual respect and if possible friendship.

I think Bartholomew leads perfectly by example.
He is not giving up his faith, but yet he find it in himself to be graceful towards others and show of some true beautiful orthodox love for his neighbors.

 

[rturner76]

While I'm not orthodox myself I think the answer lays within the sentence.
Since they know where the church is that may point out to others where they differ from the true doctrine, but that's not the same as saying that the know where the church isn't.
I mean the grace of God may and I believe it does in many cases exceed the doors of the church.

There are various degrees of heresy aswell as various degrees of consent and knowledge.
Theologians are often more guilty than laymen cause they know better than embracing heresy whereby laymen often are following their church more blindly so to say.

Long story short (sorry for my rant) there can and there is one true church with one true doctrine, but that doesn't necessarily limit the grace of God to said church.
God May very well save people outside the church aswrll.

Well said
I totally agree

 

[tz620q]

I Guess ive been lucky in my encounters With my Orthodox brethren then.
Most Orthodox clergy that Ive been in touch With aswell as laymen and women have shown great Hospitality and love towards me as catholic and towards our Church.

Not always the case unfortunately. I was at a Greek festival at our local Greek Orthodox church and they were giving tours of the sanctuary. I had been there at the opening several years before; but the walls were still white without icons. So I was anxious to see the finished church iconography. A young deacon was standing in the middle of the sanctuary waiting for people to gather for the tour. As we waited, I remarked that I loved the iconography that they had added and that as a Catholic I had a similar love for theological art. He seemed to latch onto my being Catholic and the next thing I know he is telling me about all the things that are wrong with the Catholic Church. I didn't want to repeat the mistake of Cardinal Humbert and argue with the guy in his own church. So I bit my tongue and nodded my head, though my anger at his behavior towards a guest in his church had me wondering what his motivation was.

 

[rturner76]

Not always the case unfortunately. I was at a Greek festival at our local Greek Orthodox church and they were giving tours of the sanctuary. I had been there at the opening several years before; but the walls were still white without icons. So I was anxious to see the finished church iconography. A young deacon was standing in the middle of the sanctuary waiting for people to gather for the tour. As we waited, I remarked that I loved the iconography that they had added and that as a Catholic I had a similar love for theological art. He seemed to latch onto my being Catholic and the next thing I know he is telling me about all the things that are wrong with the Catholic Church. I didn't want to repeat the mistake of Cardinal Humbert and argue with the guy in his own church. So I bit my tongue and nodded my head, though my anger at his behavior towards a guest in his church had me wondering what his motivation was.

To show one the error of their ways and make them a convert of course......

 

[~Anastasia~]

From my understanding the Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way except their recognition of the Bishop of Rome's primacy as Orthodoxy did until the Schism. Are they also heretics? I wanted to consider, in your view, will our Eastern brothers be joining us in hell?

It is not our place to usurp Christ's judgement of who will be condemned.

Saying that some of Rome's doctrines are heresies does NOT equal saying that everyone in communion with Rome will be condemned.

Incidentally, we also do not say that everyone in communion in Orthodoxy will necessarily "be saved".

Firstly we don't pass judgement on anyone's salvation, and secondly we don't equate salvation absolutely with communion.

But because Orthodoxy and Rome have important differences in doctrines, it is almost a given that we view some of them as heresies. I suspect that is true of Rome as well.

 

[~Anastasia~]

To show you the error of your ways and make you a convert of course......

I don't know his motivation.

I talk to visitors at our festival. I don't like to criticize, but I would never take that approach. And I can be quite sure my priest would remove me from that responsibility if I did.

It almost sounds like maybe it involves something or someone else, rather than you (tz) personally.

 

[tz620q]

I don't know his motivation.

I talk to visitors at our festival. I don't like to criticize, but I would never take that approach. And I can be quite sure my priest would remove me from that responsibility if I did.

It almost sounds like maybe it involves something or someone else, rather than you (tz) personally.

I thought the same thing. It was almost like I was a stand-in for a previously unresolved conflict that he had. I must admit to my shame that this has changed my viewpoint of Orthodoxy from one of admiration at their solid stand on Tradition and their many good points in theology to one where I see hatred in their opinions more than loving correction. Please pray for me.

 

[Anhelyna]

Maybe I'm exceptionally lucky , but having 2 Orthodox priests as really good friends I have never heard either of them express ideas that I am a heretic and will go to hell.

Rather both of them , like the EC priests I also know, say that none of us know where we will go at the Final Judgement.

We leave that judgement to Him Who made us.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I thought the same thing. It was almost like I was a stand-in for a previously unresolved conflict that he had. I must admit to my shame that this has changed my viewpoint of Orthodoxy from one of admiration at their solid stand on Tradition and their many good points in theology to one where I see hatred in their opinions more than loving correction. Please pray for me.

I'm so sorry that happened.

I feel badly with him being a deacon, but I can't comment on that. That just isn't the way we are taught to think.

Certainly, there are some here and there (mainly fairly new converts who seem to get most of their information from books and online, maybe without the benefit of being able to discuss what they are reading) and that minority seems to be more vocal than their numbers and it makes me cringe how they may be running people away from Christianity altogether and the Church in particular. Lord have mercy. I fear sometimes some little thing I say could stumble someone - I can be very foolish. And you never know how someone will take something.

But what you said grieves me a lot. I am sorry.

You have my prayers, and I will pray for the person who said those things too. It seems maybe he needs prayer as well.

But I really don't think it was actually you. You never know - maybe he was very hurt over a close family member and worried about them because of something else entirely involving that person and Catholicism, or something on that level, and just reacting out of his hurt.

I am sorry though. God be with you.