Conversion therapy

[Paidiske]

This is partly a question of how we understand words. The ancient world had no concept akin to what we today mean by "homosexuality." They understood that people sometimes engage in sexual activity with members of their own sex, but the idea of same-sex attraction as an innate thing which exists along a spectrum is a completely modern idea. Basically, in modern terms, Scripture assumes everyone is straight, and some people are just badly-behaved straight people.

So what the Scriptures speak of is not homosexuality in that modern sense, but a spectrum of behaviours.

 

[Brightmoon]

That’s an interesting take Paidiske . There’s a embryo developmental basis for sex and gender being separate and of course Bronze Age people wouldn’t have known that. There’s a 5 month difference between when most people have their sex determined ( at fertilization) and when the brain develops gender. This happens long before you’re born

 

[hedrick]

This is partly a question of how we understand words. The ancient world had no concept akin to what we today mean by "homosexuality." They understood that people sometimes engage in sexual activity with members of their own sex, but the idea of same-sex attraction as an innate thing which exists along a spectrum is a completely modern idea. Basically, in modern terms, Scripture assumes everyone is straight, and some people are just badly-behaved straight people..

That assumption is made explicit in Rom 1:26-27. (As you know, I think that represents the view Paul is arguing against, but it's still a good description of the usual Jewish view.)

 

[JacksBratt]

You've made some really good points. I think what I was trying to say was that any kind of therapeutic services should always be person centred. The treatments should not involve imposing our values and beliefs on an individual, but taking a more person centred approach, respecting their own thoughts, feelings and goals and working with them to meet realistic objectives that are both measurable and achievable.

I agree.

I don't believe that you are ever going to help those that don't believe that they have a problem.

 

[NerdGirl]

I

I have a Christian friend in my church who has come out as trans, dresses as a man calls herself a man's name etc I think she is taking hormones too as she is growing a small beard and it isn't PCOS (I have PCOS so I can tell it isn't PCOS type of facial hair. It isn't downy or peach fuzz all over the lower face) but she also identified as lesbian.

I don't know how that works to be honest but am guessing one could see themselves as both gay and trans. After all these are considered identity issues

These stories are endless. These people need help, counseling, therapy, not offers to butcher and mutilate their bodies and brains. I know of a young girl who got into a relationship with another girl who considered herself transgender. The younger girl (she was about 17) became convinced that she was also trans and started referring to herself as a 'gay boy' (because the other girl was also presenting as a boy). The loops and knots that a person's mind has to traverse in order to think that this scenario is in any way sensible, logical, normal, or healthy, are extreme. Of course, as soon as their relationship broke up, and the influence of the older partner was absent, the younger girl quickly concluded that she was not, in fact, a trans boy (she was about 19-20 at this point).

I also have a personal friend who was born male and now lives as female, and has gone through most of the transition process, including surgery and hormone replacements. I remember having in-depth conversations with him as he was first taking estrogen. The mental suffering he endured was painful to witness, and broke my heart. He complained of not understanding his own thoughts and feelings, of having frequent breakdowns and crying spells, of thinking he was going crazy. This is not helpful. This is not therapeutic. This is not normal. This is not okay. You cannot force biology to become something it isn't, and these people are suffering tremendously for the sake of a godless culture war.

People want to blame "prejudice" for the agony these people suffer, but the truth is that it's the lack of recognition of the root of their illness that causes it. Thinking that cutting off and mutilating body parts, or flooding a male brain with female hormones (or vice versa), will not have disastrous consequences? That is utter ignorance and foolishness, and I've witnessed the tragedies that result, firsthand. The moment someone says "I was born in the wrong body", they need to receive counseling to identify the root cause of that dysfunctional thinking, and address and deal with that root cause. Any other "therapy" is abuse.

 

[NerdGirl]

actually the new testament doesn't refer to homosexuality at all.

Actually it does.

A few translations use the word "effeminate" but the vast majority of them use "homosexual" or "men who defile themselves with men" or "sodomites". It's blatantly obvious that they're referring to homosexuality.

1 Timothy 1:10 - Bible Gateway

 

[Pathfinder627]

if you are going to use Leviticus to condemn minorities then expect it put back on you

I didn't only mention Leviticus. You did. And you are lying throughout this thread about the New Testament too. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind". 1 Cor 6:9-10

"Abusers of themselves with mankind" = arsenokoitai. Homosexuals. It is a compound word, meaning men [arsen] in bed [koitai].. A euphemism for sex, where you also get the Latin coitus, which is also used for sex.

And if that wasn't enough, he condemns the "effiminate" before that. "Malakoi" meaning the soft, passive men in pederastic relationships. Not all of them were even sexual, but even the imagery and subjective role is condemned here.

Just to assuage your further lies, here is as literal a translation of the whole passage that you're going to get:

Do you [notou] know [oida] that [hoti] the unrighteous [adikos] will
[klēronomeō] not [ou] inherit [klēronomeō] the kingdom [basileia] of God [theos]? Do not [mē] be deceived [planaō]: neither [oute] the sexually [pornos] immoral, nor [oute] idolaters [eidōlolatrēs], nor [oute] adulterers [moichos], nor [oute] male [malakos] prostitutes, nor [oute] homosexuals [arsenokoitēs], nor [oute] thieves [kleptēs], nor [oute] the greedy [pleonektēs], nor [ou] drunkards [methysos], nor [ou] slanderers [loidoros], nor [ou] swindlers [harpax] will inherit [klēronomeō] the kingdom [basileia] of God [theos].

ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε: οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται οὔτε κλέπται οὔτε πλεονέκται, οὐ μέθυσοι, οὐ λοίδοροι, οὐχ ἅρπαγες βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομήσουσιν.

 

[Brightmoon]

These stories are endless. These people need help, counseling, therapy, not offers to butcher and mutilate their bodies and brains. I know of a young girl who got into a relationship with another girl who considered herself transgender. The younger girl (she was about 17) became convinced that she was also trans and started referring to herself as a 'gay boy' (because the other girl was also presenting as a boy). The loops and knots that a person's mind has to traverse in order to think that this scenario is in any way sensible, logical, normal, or healthy, are extreme. Of course, as soon as their relationship broke up, and the influence of the older partner was absent, the younger girl quickly concluded that she was not, in fact, a trans boy (she was about 19-20 at this point).

I also have a personal friend who was born male and now lives as female, and has gone through most of the transition process, including surgery and hormone replacements. I remember having in-depth conversations with him as he was first taking estrogen. The mental suffering he endured was painful to witness, and broke my heart. He complained of not understanding his own thoughts and feelings, of having frequent breakdowns and crying spells, of thinking he was going crazy. This is not helpful. This is not therapeutic. This is not normal. This is not okay. You cannot force biology to become something it isn't, and these people are suffering tremendously for the sake of a godless culture war.

People want to blame "prejudice" for the agony these people suffer, but the truth is that it's the lack of recognition of the root of their illness that causes it. Thinking that cutting off and mutilating body parts, or flooding a male brain with female hormones (or vice versa), will not have disastrous consequences? That is utter ignorance and foolishness, and I've witnessed the tragedies that result, firsthand. The moment someone says "I was born in the wrong body", they need to receive counseling to identify the root cause of that dysfunctional thinking, and address and deal with that root cause. Any other "therapy" is abuse.

. Since sex happens at fertilization and gender happens 5 months later when the brain develops for some people there is a mismatch between their sex and their gender. Your friend is just one example . I can think of one trans individual who was extremely happy with her sex reassignment surgery and she was quite public about it . Christine Jorgenson

 

[Pathfinder627]

This is partly a question of how we understand words. The ancient world had no concept akin to what we today mean by "homosexuality." They understood that people sometimes engage in sexual activity with members of their own sex, but the idea of same-sex attraction as an innate thing which exists along a spectrum is a completely modern idea. Basically, in modern terms, Scripture assumes everyone is straight, and some people are just badly-behaved straight people.

So what the Scriptures speak of is not homosexuality in that modern sense, but a spectrum of behaviours.

Arsenokoitai means homosexuality. Nor was the Church mistaken for 2000 years over it (including Koine Greek speakers themselves in the entire Patristic period).

No, Greek didn't have an exact word, just like they didn't have other many other exact words equivalent to English (or vice versa). But the meaning was still there, and one could rely on compound words to get a point across. In this case, as I pointed earlier, arsenokoitai is a compound word for "men in bed/coitus".

 

[Brightmoon]

Underlying the matter at hand is the biblical record, easily read, which states male and female created He them.

Further the penalties for assuming a different sexual identity than the one given by Him were rather severe as it was said to effect the wellbeing of the whole community. Lev 20:13 This severe punishment was recorded as being required by God Himself.

For such a matter to be described as an abomination should cause us to sit up and take notice, but the sophisticated justifications made in modern thinking and imbibed by many churches leaves the Bible on the shelf as a forgotten and irrelevant fairy tale or worse - even a danger to a healthy society - deserving of a burning.

Now in Jesus there is no condemnation, just love, healing and the invitation to be free.

This freedom however has a price and conditions. God has not changed.

For the believer, He took our punishment, but we are required to be transparent before Him.

Repentance and renounciation then is critical but of course should never be forced.

This leads me to mention the neglected biblical counselling promoted by Dr. Jay Adams who was both a biblical scholar and professional counsellor presenting therapy that was totally anchored in Scripture.

This however is not the flavour of the month - we bend over backwards to preserve the self esteem of our clients as if facing the gravity of their sinful choices was too harsh a burden, and at that point we play God, knowing better than Him as to what is appropriate.

Yet the matter remains that if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the first step to enjoying the freedom He offers.

Instead we pour millions into sophisticated therapies that simply do not - in our country anyway - make a dent in mental health if measured by the youth suicide rate which is one of the highest in the world.

Call me old school or a bigot if you want but I have been to hell and back and had years of healing and ministry as a completely rebuilt prodigal son.

P.S. our neighbours were gay and among our best friends and not once did we attempt to force our faith on them or withdraw love.

underlying the real way organisms express their sex, Id say that just arbitrarily assigning 2 sexes is naive and based on ignorance . Just male and female simply isn’t true for all species and that includes humans . If observed natural phenomena disagrees with the Bible then the Bible is usually wrong and this has happened over and over again . I don’t have a problem with that . I feel sorry for people caught between destructive mythology and reality.

 

[Hospes]

. Since sex happens at fertilization and gender happens 5 months later when the brain develops for some people there is a mismatch between their sex and their gender. Your friend is just one example . I can think of one trans individual who was extremely happy with her sex reassignment surgery and she was quite public about it . Christine Jorgenson

Nice theory. Based upon what evidence does "gender happens 5 months later when the brain develops?

 

[Paidiske]

In this case, as I pointed earlier, arsenokoitai is a compound word for "men in bed/coitus".

Which is not the same thing as "homosexuality." The behaviour is not the orientation. It's the orientation which I'm suggesting was not part of the ancient understanding of human development.

I am not using this point to undermine a moral position; but it's important that we understand the vast gulf between a first-century understanding of sexuality, and a twenty-first century understanding, if we are to meaningfully apply the Scriptures.

 

[Brightmoon]

Neurobiology is a thing you know ! Developmental biology also. I’m one of those scientifically literate people who thinks that science facts trump ignorance every time!

 

[JacksBratt]

. Since sex happens at fertilization and gender happens 5 months later when the brain develops for some people there is a mismatch between their sex and their gender. Your friend is just one example . I can think of one trans individual who was extremely happy with her sex reassignment surgery and she was quite public about it . Christine Jorgenson

I also know a young person, in the church, who is now a man... Her family is one of the strongest Christian families that I know. It was a huge struggle and prayer was their main stay for years. Still is.

This, however is one of the very rare stories of a functional transformation.

The statistics on suicides of transgender does not change after they are surgically changed.

This must be a horrific thing to go through for the individual. Being ridiculed by society is not helpful. Being loved is the best way to treat them... Giving in and calling it normal... is not going to stop their internal conflict.

Their condition is real and not to be dismissed.. but normal is not a proper label.

 

[Brightmoon]

I also know a young person, in the church, who is now a man... Her family is one of the strongest Christian families that I know. It was a huge struggle and prayer was their main stay for years. Still is.

This, however is one of the very rare stories of a functional transformation.

The statistics on suicides of transgender does not change after they are surgically changed.

This must be a horrific thing to go through for the individual. Being ridiculed by society is not helpful. Being loved is the best way to treat them... Giving in and calling it normal... is not going to stop their internal conflict.

Their condition is real and not to be dismissed.. but normal is not a proper label.

. The problem is it is normal for some of these people and being continually emotionally abused over something they can’t change has got to be a horrific experience

 

[Pathfinder627]

Which is not the same thing as "homosexuality." The behaviour is not the orientation. It's the orientation which I'm suggesting was not part of the ancient understanding of human development.

I am not using this point to undermine a moral position; but it's important that we understand the vast gulf between a first-century understanding of sexuality, and a twenty-first century understanding, if we are to meaningfully apply the Scriptures.

Well, in that I agree then... as much as I understand it. I don't know much about orientation to begin with. I'm not sure how much it matters if one doesn't act on it. I'm heterosexual myself, but celibate. But I have to wonder how much my heterosexuality even matters if it plays little part in my life.

 

[Anthony2019]

Neurobiology is a thing you know ! Developmental biology also. I’m one of those scientifically literate people who thinks that science facts trump ignorance every time!

I am a bit like you. I am convinced that human sexuality is innate and for the most part unchangeable. I also agree that biology plays a very major role. As such, I don't see sexual orientation as a problem that needs fixing and therefore I don't believe conversion therapy to be helpful under any circumstances. I sometimes wonder whether the ones that need therapy the most are people in the church who are relentlessly obsessed about other's sexuality to the exclusion of everything else.

 

[Pathfinder627]

I am a bit like you. I am convinced that human sexuality is innate and for the most part unchangeable. I also agree that biology plays a very major role. As such, I don't see sexual orientation as a problem that needs fixing and therefore I don't believe conversion therapy to be helpful under any circumstances. I sometimes wonder whether the ones that need therapy the most are people in the church who are relentlessly obsessed about other's sexuality to the exclusion of everything else.

I don't think it's ever been a relentless obsession. If you tried to relax the gravity of theft, murder, adultery, or any number of things the Church also condemns, you'd get the same pushback. It's only this for the time being that people are going out of their way to say is not a sin, and that the Church has been historically mistaken about. It's only this that is subject to your revisionism.

 

[Anthony2019]

I don't think it's ever been a relentless obsession. If you tried to relax the gravity of theft, murder, or any number of things the Church also condemns, you'd get the same pushback. It's only this for the time being that people are going out of their way to say is not a sin.

Sexual orientation is not an action, therefore I do not consider it to be sinful. You are likely referring to homosexual behaviour which is a different concept altogether.

 

[Pathfinder627]

Sexual orientation is not an action, therefore I do not consider it to be sinful. You are likely referring to homosexual behaviour which is a different concept altogether.

This I do agree on, which I said above to Paidiske. But this is all very confusing to me when behavior is or isn't being discussed.

I should correct myself about revisionism. There's a lot of revisionism and rationalizing around fornication too. Everything from "oral sex" isn't sex, to "we're married in our hearts".